Packer and Schwartz

[S.Brett]

Btw.:

I had asked you about Harry Sagar, 116 Brick Lane, Watch Maker in 1891.

Now I found out that he was born in Russia/Poland.

To Caps and Hats:

http://wiki.casebook.org/index.php/Wentworth_Street (the image)

Caps & Hats of all kind...

[Paddy]

The police on examination found that the murdered woman's husband was a much older man than the individual now detained and without sending for Catherine Eddowes sister , they let the man go.
The police now have under close observation in connection with the Whitechapel murder a man now inmate of the East End infirmary who was admitted since the murder under suspicious circumstances.

Hi Karsten, I think the wording is interesting (who the man is I dont know)
They considered Eddowes husband too old compared to the suspect held.
Which man did they let go?
They had at that time a man under "close observation" who was in the Infirmary. (checked the Mile End Creed records cant find Koz or Cohen for that date range. His other two visits were recorded however)

They don't actually say if these are both the same man
I do wonder what the suspicious circumstances might be?

Pat......

[Wickerman]

Hi Karsten, I think the wording is interesting (who the man is I dont know)
They considered Eddowes husband too old compared to the suspect held.
Which man did they let go?
They had at that time a man under "close observation" who was in the Infirmary. (checked the Mile End Creed records cant find Koz or Cohen for that date range. His other two visits were recorded however)

They don't actually say if these are both the same man
I do wonder what the suspicious circumstances might be?

Pat......

There are apparently, in the BNA, sixteen newspapers which carried this report, in a variety of versions.

This is the most long winded version, yet it tells us nothing more. Other versions identify this story as originating on Thursday night, 11th.

A report was current late last night that the police have good reasons to suspect a man who is at present a patient in an East End Infirmary. He was admitted since the commission of the last murder, and owing to his suspicious behaviour and other circumstances the attention of the authorities was directed to him. Detectives are making inquiries relative to his actions before being admitted to the infirmary, and he is kept under constant and close surveillance.
Hampshire Advertiser, Oct. 13, 1888.

Interesting.

[S.Brett]

Good Morning Pat, Good Morning Jon!

Daily News
United Kingdom
18 October 1888

“From more than one source the police authorities have, it is said, received information tending to show that the East-end murderer is a foreigner who was known as having lived within a radius of a few hundred yards from the scene of the Berner-street tragedy. The very place where he lodges is asserted to be within official cognizance. If the man be the real culprit, he lived some time ago with a woman, by whom he has been accused. Her statements are, it is stated, now being inquired into. In the meantime the suspected assassin is "shadowed." Incriminating evidence of a certain character has already been obtained, and, should implicit credence be placed upon the story of the woman already referred to, whose name will not transpire under any circumstances until after his guilt is prima facie established, a confession of the crimes may, it is said, be looked for at any moment. The accused is himself aware, it is believed, of the suspicions entertained against him. With regard to the statements current as to finding a blood-stained shirt at a lodging-house in Whitechapel, it appears the story is founded on some matters which occurred more than a fortnight ago. A man, apparently a foreigner, visited the house of a German laundress, at 22, Batty-street, and left four shirts, tied in a bundle, to be washed. The bundle was not opened at the time, but when the shirts were afterwards taken out one was found considerably blood-stained. The woman communicated with the police, who placed the house under observation, detectives at the same time being lodged there to arrest the man should he return. This he did last Saturday, and was taken to the Leman-street Police-station, where he was questioned, and within an hour or two released, his statement being proved correct”.

Aftonbladet (Sweden)

October 26th, 1888

“The murderer of Whitechapel has as yet managed to avoid detection. It is said that the prime suspect is now a foreigner who was living not far from Berner St when the murders took place. He has been reported to the police by a woman who he has been living with and is at present under close surveillance”.

A private "Infirmary"?

The same again in December 1888?

The Bristol Mercury (Bristol)
29 December 1888

"The Dublin Express London correspondent on Thursday gave as the latest police theory concerning the Whitechapel murderer, that he has fallen under the strong suspicion of his near relatives, who to avert a terribly family disgrace, may have placed him out of harm's way in safe keeping. As showing that there is a certain amount of credence attached to this story, detectives have recently visited all the registered private lunatic asylums, and made full inquiries as to the inmates recently admitted."

Karsten.

[lynn cates]

wishful thinking

Hello Jeff. Thanks.

"Because Swanson was the man in charge of the investigation from the out."

Yes, he liased and coordinated the investigation. But did he "poke around at the crime scenes?

"Anderson is clear to a reporter in August 1889 that they didn't know who the culprit was, their failure to bring a case."

Completely agree.

"However it seems probable that among the suspects at the time, 1888, an important one was Kozminski... but no proof could be found...perhaps there was a failed ID?"

Possibly. Also possible that he was entirely unknown to police.

"But surveillance was kept on a suspect and reports via City CID (Cox) were given to Swanson. And it's these reports MacNaughten discovers and uses in 1894 to write the memo."

No evidence for that. Why would he have to "discover" them? Should have been available to all coppers.

"Once you figure out that Anderson and MacNaughten are describing two completely different events."

Or two different people?

"MacNughten the events up to March 1889 and Anderson the events following the Crawford letter in 1890 almost two years later."

Once again, there is not a SINGLE SHRED of evidence that the Crawford letter is even REMOTELY concerned with Kosminski.

"Then it's Swanson who knows the whole story....and what all three say is true from their perspective."

Or what he has been told.

"Two different events...the same suspect."

More likely, the same wishful thinking.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

good luck

Hello (again) Jeff. Good luck on your excursion.

Cheers.
LC

[Wickerman]

Hi Karsten.

Are you suggesting the Batty-street suspect is the same as the East End Infirmary patient?

I wasn't quite sure if you were implying a parallel between the stories, because the way I read them, the former was on the loose during the second week of October while the latter was detained in the infirmary.

[S.Brett]

Hello Ben!

Yes, I am suggesting the Batty Street suspect is the same as the East End Infirmary patient.

10 -13 October Infirmary

under close observation, kept under constant and close surveillance

18 October

the suspected assassin is "shadowed."

"shadowed"? Quotation marks, why? Maybe, he was not shadowed but (still) kept under constant and close surveillance (still detained)

26 October

is at present under close surveillance (He was on the loose)

13 October

Batty Street Story:

The man who left four shirts returned

"This he did last Saturday, and was taken to the Leman-street Police-station, where he was questioned, and within an hour or two released, his statement being proved correct”

Imagine, the man, apparently a foreigner, was Morris Lubnowski, the police would have found that the four shirts belonged to the suspect´s ("Kosminski"?) family while the suspect was in an infirmary since the murder under suspicious circumstances.

These circumstances could have been the constable not far from Mitre Square who found a man with a woolen scarf of violet colour on 1 October ("PC near Mitre Square"?) and Lawende´s red neckerchief, reddish handkerchief (Perhaps these policemen knew about the violet scarf before they knew something about the reddish handkerchief).

"The policeman who got a glimpse of Jack in Mitre Court said, when some time afterwards he saw the Pole that he was the height and build of the man he had seen on the night of the murder" (Sims).

If the Constabler had recognized (by height and build) "Kosminski" as the man he had seen on the night of the murder and the bloody shirts also belonged to him then it was clear that this man is the "Prime Suspect". I can well imagine that Schwartz and Lawende were called for an identification but if both men failed the police had no proof against "Kosminski".

Surely, there was a chance for the police to catch him red-handed if the "Infirmary" would release the man. Maybe it happened and he was shadowed by the police after 18 October (for ten days?).

I think Rob House wrote that the man did not leave his house anymore after he was shadowed. There also were too many reporters and the police stopped the surveillance.

I would not rule out that the East End Infirmary was a private institution.

Perhaps the same happened in November/Dezember after Kelly or after the Brick Lane incident.

As Pat said we can´t find Kosminski or Cohen:

http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?p=24615%29

Karsten.

[Wickerman]

Hi Kirsten.
There aren't many who would confuse me with Ben.

Nevertheless, the reason I doubt it is, we read in the Daily News, 18th Oct.
"...This he did last Saturday, and was taken to the Leman-street Police-station"
Last Saturday would be the 13th.

Yet, the East End infirmary patient was in the infirmary prior to the 11th - when that particular story broke.

They can't be the same person, right?

[S.Brett]

Hi Kirsten.
There aren't many who would confuse me with Ben.

Sorry Jon, I had a chat with a friend (Benjamin/Ben- Whatsapp) while writing...

Nevertheless, the reason I doubt it is, we read in the Daily News, 18th Oct.
"...This he did last Saturday, and was taken to the Leman-street Police-station"
Last Saturday would be the 13th.

The suspect was in an infirmary since the murder until (about) 18 October and on the loose 26 October...

It was not the suspect who returned to Batty Street on Saturday 13 October. Maybe it was one of his brothers (Woolf/Isaac) or his brother-in-law Morris Lubnowski. Mrs. Kuer spoke about a Tailor. Woolf or Isaac (Tailors) are more likely than Morris (Bootlaster).

Pure speculation...

Karsten.

[Wickerman]

Sorry Jon, I had a chat with a friend (Benjamin/Ben- Whatsapp) while writing...



The suspect was in an infirmary since the murder until (about) 18 October and on the loose 26 October...

It was not the suspect who returned to Batty Street on Saturday 13 October. Maybe it was one of his brothers (Woolf/Isaac) or his brother-in-law Morris Lubnowski. Mrs. Kuer spoke about a Tailor. Woolf or Isaac (Tailors) are more likely than Morris (Bootlaster).

Pure speculation...

Ah, ok, so you think the man who returned for the shirts was not the man who left them there?
I just assumed this is what was meant by The Batty-street Suspect.

[Wickerman]

The East End Infirmary article may refer to Puckridge, Saunders (the 3rd medical student?), or someone entirely unknown to us.

[S.Brett]

Ah, ok, so you think the man who returned for the shirts was not the man who left them there?
I just assumed this is what was meant by The Batty-street Suspect.

The man who left the shirts and returned, I guess, is one and the same. Of course he was a suspect until he was questioned and his statement being proved correct.

Imagine that the Batty Street "Suspect" (on 13 October) was Woolf Abrahams, the brother of "Kosminski", then the police had proof that this suspect "Kosminski" (found on 1 October by a PC near Mitre Square) wore bloody clothing around the Double Event.

1 October:

Upon him were found 1s 4½d in money and a razor, and round his throat was a woollen scarf of a violet colour, upon which were several long hairs, supposed to be those of a woman... No blood was found upon his clothes...

No blood was found upon his clothes (1 October)

18 October

With regard to the statements current as to finding a blood-stained shirt at a lodging-house in Whitechapel, it appears the story is founded on some matters which occurred more than a fortnight ago

It could mean that the police (or rather Mr. Kuer) found bloody clothing on 2-4 October (not on 1 October) belonging to "Kosminski".

What a surprise for the police, if "Kosminski" was a suspect right after the Double Event, when they had found out the bloody shirts in Batty Street were left by "Kosminski"´s brother.

[S.Brett]

The East End Infirmary article may refer to Puckridge, Saunders (the 3rd medical student?), or someone entirely unknown to us.

Of course, Jon!

[Paddy]

The East End Infirmary article may refer to Puckridge, Saunders (the 3rd medical student?), or someone entirely unknown to us.

Well if anybody can give me some names and age I can check them?
I will check the Saunders entry.
I did find Nathan Cohens admission and discharge, but that was to late to be this suspect.

Pat........