Packer and Schwartz

[lynn cates]

side

Hello Jeff.

"She was described as muddy on her left side, so I don't see why she could not have been dragged."

Ever try dragging someone lying on a side (rather than on back)?

This is a good experiment for you and your partner.

Cheers.
LC

[Jeff Leahy]

Hello Karsten. Thanks.

Kosminski does not seem insane in his court appearance. But, to be fair, it could have been a recurring condition.

Is there a suggestion that Kosminski was committed multiple times?

Cheers.
LC

COX 'from time to time he became insane'

This is consistent with Schizophrenia which is a cyclicur illness skiing in waves and periods of recovery... But schizophrenia alone would not make someone dangerous they would also require underline personality disorders

'A great hatred of women'

I think Carsten is speculating that Kozminski went in and out of a Private asylum in Surrey... Police were searching Private asylums as early as December 1888

Yours Jeff

[lynn cates]

difference of opinion

Hello Jon, Cris.

"There is no basis for an argument that the police (ie; Scotland Yard) did not believe Schwartz up to Oct. 19th."

Please be aware that "the police" were not a single entity.

So, one more time, Swanson believed the tale. And if he authorised the description circulation, that would make sense.

At the same time, coppers on the ground doubted the story.

No anomaly here--merely a difference of opinion. This is part of the disconnect between coppers on the ground and those collating in the office.

Cheers.
LC

[Jeff Leahy]

Hello Jeff,

If she fought off the B.S. man or was dragged wouldn't that be reflected in the state of her clothing such as a tear or ripped off buttons? To me, her clothing suggests being caught completely off guard as though she had been with a client.

c.d.

Hi CD

As I said I've tried dragging a heavy object on velvet like material over slats and it doesn't leave much of a mark..

That said I don't know Strides prices material or her weight for that matter, so its generalised not scientific.

She was described as muddy on her left side, so i don't see why she could not have been dragged. But your correct no ripped buttons, just a fraying to the scarf and clutching those mints.

I think everyone is agreed that what ever happened to Stride it was very quick and with extreme force

Yours Jeff

[lynn cates]

choices

Hello (again) CD. Thanks.

"You seem to feel that the club members had no other choice . . ."

Oops! Too many eggs in the pudding. To DO X does NOT entail a single choice.

". . . than to concoct a conspiracy . . ."

You mean two or three conspire to concoct a story?

"Why not simply cooperate with the police as much as possible and show the police you had nothing to hide?"

They DID all this. But they felt threatened. Might reread the AF tale.

"You seem to put a lot of faith in the Leman lads."

Not necessarily. But they had objections to Israel's tale--as I do.

"Were they in full possession of all the facts before they voiced their opinion?"

No, and neither was Swanson. For had he been, the case would have been solved.

"And were they convinced that Schwartz had lied which is why they didn't believe his story or was it because Schwartz arrived in the middle of something coupled with his non-understanding of English and the problems inherent with a translation?"

Actually, they wished for MORE evidence.

"And even if the Leman lads believed Schwartz to be lying, had they personally questioned him before arriving at that conclusion?"

No. But neither had Swanson.

"I would think that their opinion would be trumped by that of Swanson who had all of the facts at his disposal . . ."

Uh, no. NOT all the facts.

" . . . who either questioned Schwartz personally or who conferred with Abberline who did."

Surely the latter?

"Swanson allows for the possibility of another killer in his report. . ."

Yes. He allows for a possibility. But, surely, all do?

". . . which erases many of the problems inherent in Schwartz's story."

At the cost of twin assaults.

"I have to go with Swanson over the Leman lads."

That is your choice.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

location

Hello CD.

"To me, her clothing suggests being caught completely off guard. . ."

Precisely.

". . . as though she had been with a client."

So, where was she WITH this client? Surely not behind the gate as she died WEST of there.

Perhaps at the sack makers at the end?

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

thanks

Hello Jeff. Thanks.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

insane

Hello Karsten. Thanks.

Kosminski does not seem insane in his court appearance. But, to be fair, it could have been a recurring condition.

Is there a suggestion that Kosminski was committed multiple times?

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

Blackwell

Hello Gwyneth. Thanks for the kind words.

I hope I did justice to Blackwell's theory.

Cheers.
LC

[Hunter]

Lol...well the world series is on anyway.

[Wickerman]

Yes, Jon...November 12, the information provided by Israel Schwartz is publicly circulated by the Metropolitan Police . 3 weeks after the inquest had concluded. Nearly a month and a half after the murder of Elizabeth Stride took place...Yep, November 12, 1888.

Yes Cris, originally circulated internally in The Police Gazette of Oct. 19th (same date as Swanson's report), to all officials throughout the UK, Keepers of prisons, Chief Constables, Mayors, and broadly speaking anyone who's duty it was to uphold the law.
There is no basis for an argument that the police (ie; Scotland Yard) did not believe Schwartz up to Oct. 19th.

The fact that the description provided by Schwartz was eventually released to the Daily Telegraph on Nov. 12th (and later in the Bury Free Press, and Taunton Courier), suggests there had been no change in police opinion, regardless of any press speculations.

Thanks for posting that Jon. Maybe it'll have more impact on the theorists here than if I had posted it.

Steady on ol' chap, I don't think anyone's listening.

[c.d.]

Hello (again) CD.

"Of course you now have to come up with a REASON why Schwartz would lie. That could be kind of tough."

Hasn't this been discussed many times before? If you look at the AF piece I had translated, the club lads complained about police harassment.

If they felt threatened by possible police suspicions, what more natural than such a fib?

And if the Leman lads figured it out, then:

1. They would doubt the story.

2. Schwartz would not get called to inquest.

3. The club lads would hope for the story to pass into oblivion, and so would certainly NOT bring it up in their account of that night.

Cheers.
LC

Hello Lynn,

You seem to feel that the club members had no other choice than to concoct a conspiracy (which could blow up in their face and make a bad situation worse). Why not simply cooperate with the police as much as possible and show the police you had nothing to hide?

No one knows why Schwartz was not called to the inquest.

You seem to put a lot of faith in the Leman lads. Were they in full possession of all the facts before they voiced their opinion? And were they convinced that Schwartz had lied which is why they didn't believe his story or was it because Schwartz arrived in the middle of something coupled with his non-understanding of English and the problems inherent with a translation?

And even if the Leman lads believed Schwartz to be lying, had they personally questioned him before arriving at that conclusion? I would think that their opinion would be trumped by that of Swanson who had all of the facts at his disposal, who either questioned Schwartz personally or who conferred with Abberline who did. wSanson allows for the possibility of another killer in his report which erases many of the problems inherent in Schwartz's story. I have to go with Swanson over the Leman lads.

c.d.

[c.d.]

Hello Jeff,

If she fought off the B.S. man or was dragged wouldn't that be reflected in the state of her clothing such as a tear or ripped off buttons? To me, her clothing suggests being caught completely off guard as though she had been with a client.

c.d.

[c.d.]

Hello CD. Thanks.

"But only if she felt threatened in the first place."

And, I suppose being bounced off the pavement by a drunken brute is non-threatening? (heh-heh)

Cheers.
LC

Hello Lynn and Gwyneth,

The only account that we have of the incident comes from Schwartz. Due to the timing of his arrival on the scene we have no way of knowing what caused the altercation nor do we know who the instigator was. It could have been Stride. We also have no way of knowing (and Schwartz doesn't tell us) of how violently Stride was thrown to the ground. For all he knew, their legs could have gotten entangled or the B.S. man was pulling one way and Stride another when the B.S. man let go causing Stride to fall.

I don't think this was Stride's first time on the street and if she had ever solicited she would know from experience that there were hazards associated with that profession, i.e., drunken, brutish men. I would expect a prostitute to have a pretty thick skin in responding to these types of events and it could have been a source of pride that she said I am not going to let being shoved by some drunken jerk make me move from where I want to be.

c.d.

[S.Brett]

Yes its quite clear that the ID took place in a Surrey Asylum... A convalescent Home, Martin Fido never believed the Police Seaside Home theory

The suspect a witness in Millers Court not Dutfield yard?

Yours Jeff

"identified" when he "was caged in an asylum" (Anderson)... could mean in a Seaside Home of an (private) asylum... but if its Seaside Home was located in Brighton, not far from the Police Seaside Home, then it is also possible that the identification took place at the Police home.

"My Seaside Home witness" had a really good view of "Kosminski", they stared at each other for a moment. "Kosminski" knew he was identified. He would not have killed Eddowes. In my opinion, it makes sense that he was seen in Dorset Street/ Millers Court. Maybe this is also a reason why he stopped killing prostitutes.