An even closer look at Black Bag Man

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Daily News 3 Oct:
Edward Spooner - As soon as Police-constable Lamb arrived, I went away, after helping him to shut the gates. Before I left I was searched and gave my name and address, and was examined by Dr. Phillips.

"I', not "we". This doesn't quite add up as the gates were closed by Lamb before Blackwell or Phillips arrived.

Good point. There is a hint that Spooner was allowed to leave early. In the past I've suggested that that was because Spooner was part of the WVC. The notion wasn't well accepted, so presumably Spooner was locked in the yard for hours, like everyone else.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Fanny and the young woman were not locked in the yard. They were outside the gates talking to reporters. Mr. Harris was also not in the yard. Spooner's girlfriend is nowhere to be seen. Why do you suppose the whole neighborhood got themselves locked into Dutfield's Yard?

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Being locked in the yard doesn't preclude anyone being interviewed by the press during the day. Diemschitz, Kozebrodski and Eagle were all locked in the yard, and each of them spoke to the press, so I don't see why people like Mortimer and Harris couldn't have managed the same feat.

Why would Mr Harris run around to the yard but not go in? Not saying he definitely did, but it's quite possible.

[GBinOz]

What non-members of the club went to Dutfield's Yard and got locked into it for hours, while the police were conducting searches? Edward Spooner is a given..

Daily News 3 Oct:
Edward Spooner - As soon as Police-constable Lamb arrived, I went away, after helping him to shut the gates. Before I left I was searched and gave my name and address, and was examined by Dr. Phillips.

"I', not "we". This doesn't quite add up as the gates were closed by Lamb before Blackwell or Phillips arrived.

[Tom_Wescott]

Fanny and the young woman were not locked in the yard. They were outside the gates talking to reporters. Mr. Harris was also not in the yard. Spooner's girlfriend is nowhere to be seen. Why do you suppose the whole neighborhood got themselves locked into Dutfield's Yard?

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Coroner: How many people were there in the yard?
PC Lamb: I should think 20 or 30. Some of that number had followed me in.

What non-members of the club went to Dutfield's Yard and got locked into it for hours, while the police were conducting searches? Edward Spooner is a given. Fanny Mortimer, the board school couple, Spooner's girlfriend and Mr Harris, are candidates. Presumably there were conversations going on then - we don't necessarily need to wait until after sunrise when the reporters were around.

Spooner: As I was going to Berner-street I did not meet any one except Mr. Harris, who came out of his house in Tiger Bay (Brunswick-street). Mr. Harris told me he had heard the policeman's whistle blowing.

I presume Mr Harris told Spooner this, when they got to the yard.

[Tom_Wescott]

I'm not sure that it has been established that her beau wasn't there, but even if just the girlfriend was there, the point of my question was whether the time and place of Fanny's talk with the girlfriend was the murder scene. It had been previously suggested that the woman Fanny talked to was Spooner's girlfriend, and also that Spooner's girlfriend didn't attend the murder scene, and if I have my facts right, then there's no way that both of those can be true.

Where else would Fanny have spoken to the young woman except outside the gates where the crowd had gathered and the reporters came swarming? They were both in their homes in Berner Street until the cries of murder which brought them out. Spooner's girlfriend has nothing to do with anything.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Tom_Wescott]

Sorry, but I'm not seeing in the part that I quoted anything that says what side of the street he was on before or after he crossed the road.

Imagine, if you will, that Brown is a chicken, but instead of asking why he crossed the road, you're asking if he crossed the road. Now, imagine the answer is a resounding yes. As Stride and her man were standing on the board school side and the chandler shop was opposite it and catercorner, and we know Brown was all about those eats, in order to cross the street away from the chandler shop to walk along the kerb near which Stride and her man were standing, he must have first visited the chandler shop. Ergo, Brown saw his couple on the way back from the chandler's shop.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Lewis C]

Fanny talked to the young woman. Her beau had long gone. And this young couple walked along Commercial Road, not along Fairclough Street. Brown could not have mistaken Edward Spooner and his girl as Spooner was standing pretty much under Brown's window. Stride also had quite a distinctive face and her face is all Brown got a good look at.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

I'm not sure that it has been established that her beau wasn't there, but even if just the girlfriend was there, the point of my question was whether the time and place of Fanny's talk with the girlfriend was the murder scene. It had been previously suggested that the woman Fanny talked to was Spooner's girlfriend, and also that Spooner's girlfriend didn't attend the murder scene, and if I have my facts right, then there's no way that both of those can be true.

[Lewis C]

The chandler shop was on the opposite side of the street of Fairclough, so why would he be on the side of the street of the shop and then cross it to go to the other side? It only makes sense for him to cross the street (from the chandler shop side) to go to the board school side if it's after he's left the chandler shop. Having that why, you've underlined why it's important to draw from as many contemporary sources as possible. When it comes to the Stride inquest, they didn't have their best man on the job. Other newspapers were more thorough in their coverage, which is why I quoted from several in Ripper Confidential and again on this thread. Those make it abundantly clear what happened with Brown. But even the times excerpt you posted has Brown leaving his house 'about 12:45' and the sighting occurring some time later. This was not new information when I published it in 2018 but had been ignored by several authors wanting to prop up BS Man as Stride's killer because they believed he physically resembled their suspect the best.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Sorry, but I'm not seeing in the part that I quoted anything that says what side of the street he was on before or after he crossed the road.

[Tom_Wescott]

A young girl had been standing in a bisecting thoroughfare not fifty yards from the spot where the body was found. She had, she said, been standing there for about twenty minutes, talking with her sweetheart, but neither of them heard any unusual noises.

The phrase 'not fifty yards' means 'not even fifty yards'. That is, less than 50 yards.

The earlier couple weren't standing anywhere for about 20 minutes - they were almost continuously walking. To be even pickier, the top of Berner St does not form a bisecting thoroughfare with Commercial Rd.

You've made my point. The young couple were at the Commercial end of Berner Street and they left the scene long before Schwartz and his entourage of murderous misfits came long. They were irrelevant. Also, Aaron Kosminski was scrawny. Not some broad-shouldered laborer type.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[NotBlamedForNothing]

You think? I don't. But what about 50 yards? That's the distance other sources put the young couple...thirty minutes before the murder.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

A young girl had been standing in a bisecting thoroughfare not fifty yards from the spot where the body was found. She had, she said, been standing there for about twenty minutes, talking with her sweetheart, but neither of them heard any unusual noises.

The phrase 'not fifty yards' means 'not even fifty yards'. That is, less than 50 yards.

The earlier couple weren't standing anywhere for about 20 minutes - they were almost continuously walking. To be even pickier, the top of Berner St does not form a bisecting thoroughfare with Commercial Rd.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

I can nitpick too. “Just as he stepped from the kerb..” so he may still have had one foot on the kerb! Basically, as he began to cross over the man was a few doors away. If the man was on the other side of the road the public house wouldn’t have been mentioned. It’s being mentioned isn’t problematic unless you’re creating a scenario.

You can suppose he had both feet on the curb; there is still no public house a few doors off. If instead you prefer to have the man appearing when Schwartz begins crossing, then not only are you are changing the evidence to suit an argument, but you're creating at least one new problem. As you support the press account and suppose Schwartz crosses prior to reaching the gateway, if Pipe/Knifeman has spotted him at this point, and rushes at Schwartz or even just begins moving toward him, Schwartz would have scampered straight back up Berner St, away from Ellen St and the railway arches to the South.

Regarding the confusion in the press account, I think Schwartz was talking about a doorway or something like a doorway, and the reporter thinks he means the Nelson. There is no mention of the Nelson by the police. Swanson's report has Pipeman somewhere on the street, but he is totally unspecific about the location, other than to say that he followed Schwartz after Schwartz crossed the street, implying that he came from a relative North location. That would exclude the Nelson.

a) Perhaps the guy worked at The Nelson and had been cleaning up after the customers had left.
b) Perhaps he had been offered a bit of after time drinking?
c) Perhaps it was just a case of Schwartz only seeing him when he was adjacent to, or just passed, the pub door so he got the incorrect impression that he had come from the pub.

All 3 are clearly more believable than Schwartz not realising that the guy was on the same side of the street as him or of him mistaking the Board School for a pub.

A and B are extremely unlikely, not only for the coincidence of his leaving the pub in the short period in which Schwartz is on the street, but because he would have been easy enough to identify, and there is no sign that he was. C is just a rephrasing of "just as he stepped from the kerb" - already discussed.

I don't suppose Pipeman had been on the street when Schwartz walked down it. I think he originated from a location that made him invisible to Schwartz at that point. Possibly Hampshire Court. Walking through that court would take one to the Red Lion on Batty St.

It’s you that is wrong on this and I’m struggling to understand how you are managing it. It wasn’t a ‘redundant’ crossing. It was a crossing to avoid BS man. It can’t be simpler.

Sure, it's simple, but that doesn't make it right. My model is based on everything we have from the police. Yours is based on the press account.

I don’t think that he ‘stopped.’ He may have paused for a second but it’s unthinkable that he stood watching. Why do you give this suggestion even a seconds credence? BS man is at the gateway with the woman. Schwartz is on the same side but behind him (who knows how far - I’ll guess at 5 or 10 yards) As soon as he sees conflict he crosses over. He looks across as he passes. When Schwartz got in line with the gateway he was across the street.

Same again - I'm with the police on this matter; you're with the press.

[Tom_Wescott]

By yourself. I call it a reason for doubting Overcoat Man was the murderer.



Roughly the distance from the gateway to the board school corner.

You think? I don't. But what about 50 yards? That's the distance other sources put the young couple...thirty minutes before the murder.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Herlock Sholmes]

At the moment Schwartz steps from the kerb, there is no public house doorway a few doors off. Combined with the fact that someone coming out of the Nelson long after it had closed for the night, is problematic itself, the conclusion must be that either the Star has made a mistake, or we do not have the right doorway in mind.

I can nitpick too. “Just as he stepped from the kerb..” so he may still have had one foot on the kerb! Basically, as he began to cross over the man was a few doors away. If the man was on the other side of the road the public house wouldn’t have been mentioned. It’s being mentioned isn’t problematic unless you’re creating a scenario.

a) Perhaps the guy worked at The Nelson and had been cleaning up after the customers had left.
b) Perhaps he had been offered a bit of after time drinking?
c) Perhaps it was just a case of Schwartz only seeing him when he was adjacent to, or just passed, the pub door so he got the incorrect impression that he had come from the pub.

All 3 are clearly more believable than Schwartz not realising that the guy was on the same side of the street as him or of him mistaking the Board School for a pub.

You're not understanding this. The redundant crossing refers to that normally supposed - away from the gateway, not toward it. If Schwartz reaches the gateway and then barely stops to watch the fracas, he is clear of the gateway by the time Stride is on the footway. So then, not only would his crossing be redundant if its purpose is to avoid the situation, but it would also be in conflict with his Ellen St destination. Yet he does cross.

It’s you that is wrong on this and I’m struggling to understand how you are managing it. It wasn’t a ‘redundant’ crossing. It was a crossing to avoid BS man. It can’t be simpler.

The next step is then to say, well let's agree with Abberline that he does stop to watch. The problem now - and this is the bit you do seem to understand - is that if Schwartz stops to watch, having himself reached the level of the gates, he would be in the gateway himself (or almost), if he had come down the street on the club side.

No. For Christ’s sake Andrew!!

I don’t think that he ‘stopped.’ He may have paused for a second but it’s unthinkable that he stood watching. Why do you give this suggestion even a seconds credence? BS man is at the gateway with the woman. Schwartz is on the same side but behind him (who knows how far - I’ll guess at 5 or 10 yards) As soon as he sees conflict he crosses over. He looks across as he passes. When Schwartz got in line with the gateway he was across the street.

The next step is then to see if it makes sense and does not contradict any evidence, if we suppose Schwartz actually came down on the opposite side of the street, eventually crossing to the club side.

Nothing that you are saying makes sense. You are quite deliberately trying to shape events to create mysteries as exactly as Michael used to do. We know what happened.

BS man was on the club side with Schwartz an unknown distant behind him but almost certainly a few yards.

As soon as the incident began Schwartz crossed over to avoid the conflict.

As he gets across the road he sees Pipeman who he assumes has just left the pub.

BS man called out “Lipski” as Schwartz is passing.

Schwartz crosses back over because that’s where he needs to be to get to his destination.


I can’t think why anyone would think that this was somehow far fetched?

[NotBlamedForNothing]

“..but just as he stepped from the kerb a second man came out of the doorway of the public house a few doors off” This can only be The Nelson and it can only mean that, whether Pipeman actually came out of the pub or not, he was on the club side of the road.

At the moment Schwartz steps from the kerb, there is no public house doorway a few doors off. Combined with the fact that someone coming out of the Nelson long after it had closed for the night, is problematic itself, the conclusion must be that either the Star has made a mistake, or we do not have the right doorway in mind.

Exactly. What gives? You are in one breath saying that Schwartz crossing the road from the opposite side back to the club side after passing the incident makes no sense but it only ‘makes no sense’ if we go with your suggestion that he was initially on the opposite side of the road.

You're not understanding this. The redundant crossing refers to that normally supposed - away from the gateway, not toward it. If Schwartz reaches the gateway and then barely stops to watch the fracas, he is clear of the gateway by the time Stride is on the footway. So then, not only would his crossing be redundant if its purpose is to avoid the situation, but it would also be in conflict with his Ellen St destination. Yet he does cross.

The next step is then to say, well let's agree with Abberline that he does stop to watch. The problem now - and this is the bit you do seem to understand - is that if Schwartz stops to watch, having himself reached the level of the gates, he would be in the gateway himself (or almost), if he had come down the street on the club side.

The next step is then to see if it makes sense and does not contradict any evidence, if we suppose Schwartz actually came down on the opposite side of the street, eventually crossing to the club side.