The Stride Murder

[c.d.]

Would cachous have been a part of the life of the most desperate in the Victorian era? I'm sceptical. Sweets were a luxury even for the poor who were better off than Liz.

They were simply a common penny candy were they not?

And if Liz really wanted them how do we know that she was not averse to making a small sacrifice money wise to obtain them?

c.d.

[Fleetwood Mac]

If you read the whole of MM's paper you'll see he writes about three Jews who rode up in a cart, or words to that effect. He's clearly, in my opinion, confusing the two murders, Berner St. (the cart) with Mitre Sq. (three Jews) and the only PC who is genuinely reported to have handed in a suspect description is PC Smith.
I know Abby made the same point, I just added a bit of clarity as to why we both see it that way.
The City PC per se does not exist.

On balance, I'd agree with your general point. In the event he couldn't get the very basics right, then what else did he get wrong? It certainly does compromise his City PC statement.

Whether or not 'unless possibly' was PC Smith, is another matter.

[Wickerman]

Which suggests that Liz was given those cachous.

Which in turn suggests this was not the sort of attack supposedly witnessed by Schwartz, but more a pretty amicable exchange until the knife was produced and Liz didn't have time to react (see below regarding unopened cachous).

Who gave them to her? Who would be wandering around with cachous? The type of client Liz usually encountered? Probably not, given that they were more or less in the same boat and more than likely half cut from the pub: in all probability cachous and breath wasn't of any consequence to them.

Which homicidal, depraved, misanthrope was seen walking down the street, near the time of the murder, with a shiny, black bag; and was in the cigarette business meaning cachous would have been a natural accompaniment and side order?

Ladies and gentleman: I give you Leon Goldstein, or should I say Jack.

The sweet trick was designed to get his bag open without arousing suspicion, he handed the cachous over,......

Isn't that like an insult?
Here miss, take one of these, your breath stinks...
A risky pickup line don't you think....

Why would Goldstein be carrying cachous?

What if the packet was on the ground already?
As she fell her hand just came in contact with the packet between her thumb and forefinger. Her hands slowly closed, this was her left hand, she fell on her left side, which means the thumb & forefinger are on the cobbles. As her fingers clench they wrapped around the packet.

[c.d.]

What if the packet was on the ground already?
As she fell her hand just came in contact with the packet between her thumb and forefinger. Her hands slowly closed, this was her left hand, she fell on her left side, which means the thumb & forefinger are on the cobbles. As her fingers clench they wrapped around the packet.

That sounds like the explanation people give when they have to go to the emergency room with something stuck up their butt.

c.d.

[Michael W Richards]

Which suggests that Liz was given those cachous.

Liz did not have any alcohol in her blood, and she had 2 things on her that she didnt have when she left the lodging house, and something missing. She had a flower on her jacket, and cashous. And no 6d she got for cleaning the rooms that afternoon. I think thats where the 6d went.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Might it have been in someone's kind Arbeter Fraint translation? As I recall, the cops have arrived, and one of them demands that the lad behind the bar sells him one of those nice cigars. Typical copper trick; but the kid won't do it because he knows full well it's after hours and they'd get battered by the Magistrate. Presumably there was a reliable clock, then. And from this story we also see the kind of pressure that the Club was under: the police were out to get them -- godless anarchist socialist Yids trying to bring down all that we hold dear! -- and anything would do. Next thing, we get a lovely story about a passing antisemite being seen attacking a woman, and the Club is untouchable over the murder, too. Neat footwork.

Mark D.

That explanation sounds familiar. I’m unsure of the source though. At times like these it’s usually cue someone like Joshua or Wickerman with the relevant quote.

[Fleetwood Mac]

Isn't that like an insult?
Here miss, take one of these, your breath stinks...
A risky pickup line don't you think....

Why would Goldstein be carrying cachous?

What if the packet was on the ground already?
As she fell her hand just came in contact with the packet between her thumb and forefinger. Her hands slowly closed, this was her left hand, she fell on her left side, which means the thumb & forefinger are on the cobbles. As her fingers clench they wrapped around the packet.

Small Hoopers Cachous Aromatises Advertising Breath Mint Candy Cardboard Container - TPNC (timepassagesnostalgia.com)

The pictures below show larger inside and outside views of this Small Hooper's Cachous Aromatises Advertising Breath Mint Candy Cardboard Container. This small empty advertising container is not dated but it is believed to be from the 1800s.

HOOPER'S CACHOUS AROMATISES FOR IMPARTING A DELIGHTFULLY AGREEABLE PERFUME TO THE BREATH AFTER SMOKING.

A better question is: why wouldn't Leon (or Jack to those of us in the know) have been trading in cachous?

Whatever Leon said he had in his bag of goodies alongside his implement 'that the ladies don't like', he was in the cigarette trade and so a readily available market and easy money from his clients who had the means to buy empty cigarette boxes or cigarettes.

A bit like selling sugar to accompany tea.

[Fleetwood Mac]

Liz did not have any alcohol in her blood, and she had 2 things on her that she didnt have when she left the lodging house, and something missing. She had a flower on her jacket, and cashous. And no 6d she got for cleaning the rooms that afternoon. I think thats where the 6d went.

I'd suggest that a woman dossing at Flower and Dean Street would not spend 6d on a flower and cachous.

[Herlock Sholmes]

You are right, Mark!

Arbeter Fraint, October 5 1888:

"The headman of this group also wanted to create difficulties for the club. Pretending that he was in a hurry, he asked if he could buy several cigars. Dimshits responded with a question: didn’t he know that the law, which he protects, forbids strangers from selling cigars in a club. If he wanted [however] they could give him two cigars. The police big shot did not refuse and asked to be given [the cigars]".

I missed this list.

Thanks Karsten I was beginning to think that we were imagining this.

[Wickerman]

What if the packet was on the ground already?
As she fell her hand just came in contact with the packet between her thumb and forefinger. Her hands slowly closed, this was her left hand, she fell on her left side, which means the thumb & forefinger are on the cobbles. As her fingers clench they wrapped around the packet.

That sounds like the explanation people give when they have to go to the emergency room with something stuck up their butt.

c.d.

Arghhh, I thought we weren't going to talk about that .....

[Wickerman]

Small Hoopers Cachous Aromatises Advertising Breath Mint Candy Cardboard Container - TPNC (timepassagesnostalgia.com)

The pictures below show larger inside and outside views of this Small Hooper's Cachous Aromatises Advertising Breath Mint Candy Cardboard Container. This small empty advertising container is not dated but it is believed to be from the 1800s.

HOOPER'S CACHOUS AROMATISES FOR IMPARTING A DELIGHTFULLY AGREEABLE PERFUME TO THE BREATH AFTER SMOKING.

A better question is: why wouldn't Leon (or Jack to those of us in the know) have been trading in cachous?

Whatever Leon said he had in his bag of goodies alongside his implement 'that the ladies don't like', he was in the cigarette trade and so a readily available market and easy money from his clients who had the means to buy empty cigarette boxes or cigarettes.

A bit like selling sugar to accompany tea.

.....and I thought you were joking about Goldstein.

[c.d.]

A bit like selling sugar to accompany tea.

That does make sense.

Woman: I like to smoke but my husband/lover says it makes my breath stink.

Vendor: I can fix that quite easily.

c.d.

[Fleetwood Mac]

What if the packet was on the ground already?
As she fell her hand just came in contact with the packet between her thumb and forefinger. Her hands slowly closed, this was her left hand, she fell on her left side, which means the thumb & forefinger are on the cobbles. As her fingers clench they wrapped around the packet.

That is extravagant, Jon, to say the least.

The likelihood is that Liz was given those cachous and almost immediately lost her life.

Dr Blackwell tells us the cachous were still in the wrapper, meaning Liz didn't have the time to get one out.

Which suggests the supposed Schwartz and associates episode has served to confuse.

[c.d.]

That is extravagant, Jon, to say the least.

The likelihood is that Liz was given those cachous and almost immediately lost her life.

Dr Blackwell tells us the cachous were still in the wrapper, meaning Liz didn't have the time to get one out.

Which suggests the supposed Schwartz and associates episode has served to confuse.

The cachous do seem to present a problem. If Schwartz witnessed the start of a violent attack as some believe when did the B.S. man give her the cachous? After he threw her to the ground and threatened Scwartz? That seems a little incongruous.

And if he gave them to her before the B.S. man attacked they somehow managed to survive being thrown to the ground despite being wrapped in tissue.

And finally, if Schwartz is correct and Stride was not killed on the street where she was seen by him but back in the alley did she go voluntarily with the man who had just violently attacked her? And if dragged and pulled by the B.S. man to her death would she not have tried to fend him off? And yet, the cachous still wrapped in tissue somehow survived her efforts to fight for her life.

c.d.

[S.Brett]

Schwartz:

...a man walking as if partially intoxicated... the half-tipsy man halted and spoke to her... he heard the sound of a quarrel...the woman screamed three times, but not very loudly...

Could it be that the cachous were the reason for the quarrel?

Stride, standing in the entrance to the alleyway, holding the cachous in her left hand, having a cachou in her mouth... BS Man, intoxicated, tries to get cachous from her... she refused, it leads to a scuffle... because of a cachou in her mouth she canīt scream loudly...

It could be, of course, that Schwartz believed that it was her murderer but in reality the man he saw could have been just a drunkard who had "asked" Stride for some cachous.

What a tragedy it would be -for us as "Ripperologists- Stride and BS Man... being involved in a disput arising from some sweets...

Good night.