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  • Originally posted by Elamarna View Post

    Worse for me is when people attempt to put themselves in the shoes of suspect x or policeman y.
    Something that's really impossible

    But back to the topic in hand.

    Steve
    I suppose it depends: how the information is looked at, are the conclusions reasonable, are the words taken out of context, that which is implied and not stated, is the source material actually source material or are we pulling things out of thin air, can we trust the source material, e.g. press repetition of a second hand source. That sort of thing. As ever, Steve, it depends on the logic, reason skills and the outlook of the person looking at the source statement.

    Although it's not my profession, I have a degree in history which means I was taught how to interpret source material in a reasonable manner, not to stretch it into something it isn't, and arrive at a reasonable informed conclusion based on the source information; and moreover that which actually constitutes source information.

    As an example, using a popular topic, in the event we say Inspector Abberline believed George Hutchinson; that in itself is not sufficient to add credence to Hutchinson's story. The conclusion should rest on George Hutchinson's statement alone, unless of course Inspector Abberline adds some detail which enables us to understand why he believed Hutchinson's statement and as a result we can deduce whether or not Abberline drew a reasonable conclusion.

    In addition, it's not sufficient to say that there may be some other information somewhere to which Abberline was witness, which none of us have seen, and that adds credence to Hutchinson's story. It doesn't. The only thing it tells us is that the information at our disposal suggests Abberline believed Hutchinson on nothing more than the statement/witness exchange, we wouldn't rule out entirely that there is some more information somewhere which may change the conclusion; but we cannot reasonably put together a conclusion on something which we haven't seen and we have no idea whether or not it ever existed.

    I'd say it's imperative that we put ourselves in the shoes of policeman x, that way we get more of an understanding of what was going on in their minds, e.g. in the event we understand that the police were at a loss as to what was going on and when it would end, we could ponder whether or not Inspector Abberline wanted to believe that lead, just as the Yorkshire police did (Wearside Jack). Situations and circumstances influence decisions, and so it's useful to understand policeman x's situation and circumstance.

    Anyway, an interesting discussion as always, Steve, and I agree: time to get back to Liz.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Elamarna View Post
      On the subject of the City PC close to Mitre Square.

      First point, I do not think for all the mistakes he makes, and there are plenty in the memorandum, that Macnaghten mixed up Berner Street with Mitre Square.
      To accept Smith is the office it means we have to ignore what Schwartz says completely, in favour of "maybes" and "what ifs."

      Watkins, appears to have been named in several reports from retiring officers in later years, I forget if the reports are here or on the other forum.

      He must remain a very good choice for the officer; but I do not think we can completely discard Harvey either, although Watkins does appear to be the better choice.

      But could it have been another officer?

      Yes, of course it could, especially given Mac's words of close to, rather than in the square.

      So we have a possibility in the man who spoke to Blenkinsop in the Orange Market.
      This of course revolves entirely around the time that encounter occurred.
      If as reported, then It's a real possibility, if as many suggested, the timing was 10 or 25 minutes out, then we can I think discount.

      For sometime I have wondered, if it could apply to a policeman who stopped someone after the event. We know of at least two in Wentworth St, and there were probably more.

      But now we are straying into a different topic, and that not what I wish to do.

      I will just say, I have pondered if there were in fact two witnesses, just as suggested with Smith and Mortimer.

      This time it would be a witness who saw something that would ensure conviction, an attack maybe?
      And a second witness, a City PC, who saw the same individual close in both time and location to another murder, at a separate site. Such would be confirmation of the same person at two site, not enough to convict, but enough to warrant watching.

      I touched on this in a Casebook online conference talk in 2021, on the Seaside Home Witness. Avaliable on this site.


      Steve
      Hi Steven!

      Assuming that the "respectably dressed man" James Blenkinsop had seen was a plain clothes officer then he had seen this man the first time that night.

      City Policeman Daniel Halse, "acting on orders, had directed a number of police officers to patrol the City of London throughout the night" with him were Robert Outram and Edward Marriott.

      PC Langham in a press report stated:

      "Let me recall one of the murders, the Mitre Square murder. It was night and the policeman had passed through the square once, everything being then apparently all right. He walked on, coming to a court leading from a street out of Mitre Square. Halfway up the court he stood sideways to allow a man to pass him. Exactly seven minutes after he had been in the square previously the policeman entered it again, and started to walk around it. Suddenly he came upon a human form huddled up in a corner."

      It is possible that a plain clothes officer had the order to patrol the Mitre Square in the opposite direction of PC Watkinsībeat that night.

      It is also possible that the plain clothes officer had found the body of Eddowes before PC Watkins reached the crime scene.

      Seven minutes... starting from Aldgate High Street, Duke Street, via Church Passage to Mitre Square, Mitre Street and back to Aldgate High Street. And, see Blenkinsop, he did not walk through the St. James Passage... would make sense I think. But Iīm not sure whether the "Court" was the Church Passage or the exit Mitre Street.

      Sagar, City Police:

      "...they set off in pursuit of the man who had just left. The officers were wearing indiarubber boots, and the retreating footsteps of a man could be clearly heard. The sounds were followed to King's-block in the model dwellings in Stoney-lane, but we did not see the man again that night". But this sounds more like Church Passage...

      Swanson, in a report, made a remark that Eddowes was already dead at 1.35am and that the couple seen by Lawende (Levy & Harris) were not the victim and her killer.

      A timeline:

      The plain clothes officer left the Mitre Square at 1.26am
      PC Watkins left the Square at. 1.28am
      The same time Eddowes and her killer entered the Square via Chuch Passage
      At 1.33 the killer left the Square via Church Passage, the same time the plain clothes officer entered the Square via Church Passage.

      "...they ( plain clothes officers) set off in pursuit of the man who had just left." One of the officers asked (at 1.35am, not 1.30am) James Blenkinsop "Have you seen a man and woman go through here"? ( the only exit/ entrance from/to Mitre Square the plain clothes officer did not go through that night)

      At 1.35 (34)am the couple, seen by Lawende, Levy and Harris standing at the entrance of Church Passage.

      From a press report (1./2. October 1888?)

      "The only trace considered of any value is the story of a watchboy who saw a man and a woman leave Aldgate Station, going towards Mitre–Square. The man returned shortly afterward alone. The police have a good description of him…”

      It might have been another couple and the good description came from Lawende.

      If there really was a PC near Mitre Square, maybe a plain clothes officer (not PC Watkins, PC Harvey or PC Holland) then PC Watkins was not the first person who found (saw!) the body. He said he didnīt see and hear anything. It is not easy to say: The woman and the man seen by Lawende, Levy and Harris were not Eddowes and her killer, but if there were (police) actions before PC Watkins found the body then the possibility they were decrease.

      I donīt think that the "stories" of Macnaghten, Sims, Griffiths, Sagar, Cox ("...it was not easy to forget that already one of them had taken place at the very moment when one of our smartest colleagues was passing the top of the dimly lit street) maybe White and Langham suggest that PC Smith from Berner Street was the PC near Mitre Square.

      But what do I know?

      Karsten.


      Last edited by S.Brett; 08-28-2023, 01:46 PM.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by S.Brett View Post

        Hi Michael!

        Edward Spooner mentioned the closing time. He and his young woman "stood outside the the Beehive" (the Bee Hive Public House) after the closing time. Pipeman was not the only person who was "standing outside" a Pub.

        "Edward Spooner, in reply to the coroner, said: I live at No. 26, Fairclough-street, and am a horse-keeper with Messrs. Meredith, biscuit bakers. On Sunday morning, between half-past twelve and one o'clock, I was standing outside the Beehive Public-house, at the corner of Christian-street, with my young woman. We had left a public-house in Commercial-road at closing time, midnight, and walked quietly to the point named. We stood outside the Beehive about twenty-five minutes, when two Jews came running along, calling out "Murder" and "Police." They ran as far as Grove-street, and then turned back. I stopped them and asked what was the matter, and they replied that a woman had been murdered. I thereupon proceeded down Berner-street and into Dutfield's-yard, adjoining the International Workmen's Club-house, and there saw a woman lying just inside the gate".

        Karsten.​
        Hi Brett,

        The reason I asked to review closing times for pubs, and in particular, any on Berner Street is because I believe the only place that one might have purchased a drink at that time of night on Berner was at the International Working Mens Educational club. I believe there were still 20-30 men there drinking at the time of the murder. And you didnt need to be a member to attend meetings.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by S.Brett View Post

          Hi Steven!

          Assuming that the "respectably dressed man" James Blenkinsop had seen was a plain clothes officer then he had seen this man the first time that night.

          City Policeman Daniel Halse, "acting on orders, had directed a number of police officers to patrol the City of London throughout the night" with him were Robert Outram and Edward Marriott.

          PC Langham in a press report stated:

          "Let me recall one of the murders, the Mitre Square murder. It was night and the policeman had passed through the square once, everything being then apparently all right. He walked on, coming to a court leading from a street out of Mitre Square. Halfway up the court he stood sideways to allow a man to pass him. Exactly seven minutes after he had been in the square previously the policeman entered it again, and started to walk around it. Suddenly he came upon a human form huddled up in a corner."

          It is possible that a plain clothes officer had the order to patrol the Mitre Square in the opposite direction of PC Watkinsībeat that night.

          It is also possible that the plain clothes officer had found the body of Eddowes before PC Watkins reached the crime scene.

          Seven minutes... starting from Aldgate High Street, Duke Street, via Church Passage to Mitre Square, Mitre Street and back to Aldgate High Street. And, see Blenkinsop, he did not walk through the St. James Passage... would make sense I think. But Iīm not sure whether the "Court" was the Church Passage or the exit Mitre Street.

          Sagar, City Police:

          "...they set off in pursuit of the man who had just left. The officers were wearing indiarubber boots, and the retreating footsteps of a man could be clearly heard. The sounds were followed to King's-block in the model dwellings in Stoney-lane, but we did not see the man again that night". But this sounds more like Church Passage...

          Swanson, in a report, made a remark that Eddowes was already dead at 1.35am and that the couple seen by Lawende (Levy & Harris) were not the victim and her killer.

          A timeline:

          The plain clothes officer left the Mitre Square at 1.26am
          PC Watkins left the Square at. 1.28am
          The same time Eddowes and her killer entered the Square via Chuch Passage
          At 1.33 the killer left the Square via Church Passage, the same time the plain clothes officer entered the Square via Church Passage.

          "...they ( plain clothes officers) set off in pursuit of the man who had just left." One of the officers asked (at 1.35am, not 1.30am) James Blenkinsop "Have you seen a man and woman go through here"? ( the only exit/ entrance from/to Mitre Square the plain clothes officer did not go through that night)

          At 1.35 (34)am the couple, seen by Lawende, Levy and Harris standing at the entrance of Church Passage.

          From a press report (1./2. October 1888?)

          "The only trace considered of any value is the story of a watchboy who saw a man and a woman leave Aldgate Station, going towards Mitre–Square. The man returned shortly afterward alone. The police have a good description of him…”

          It might have been another couple and the good description came from Lawende.

          If there really was a PC near Mitre Square, maybe a plain clothes officer (not PC Watkins, PC Harvey or PC Holland) then PC Watkins was not the first person who found (saw!) the body. He said he didnīt see and hear anything. It is not easy to say: The woman and the man seen by Lawende, Levy and Harris were not Eddowes and her killer, but if there were (police) actions before PC Watkins found the body then the possibility they were decrease.

          I donīt think that the "stories" of Macnaghten, Sims, Griffiths, Sagar, Cox ("...it was not easy to forget that already one of them had taken place at the very moment when one of our smartest colleagues was passing the top of the dimly lit street) maybe White and Langham suggest that PC Smith from Berner Street was the PC near Mitre Square.

          But what do I know?

          Karsten.


          Not going to argue with any of that, all very possible.


          Steve

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Michael W Richards View Post

            Hi Brett,

            The reason I asked to review closing times for pubs, and in particular, any on Berner Street is because I believe the only place that one might have purchased a drink at that time of night on Berner was at the International Working Mens Educational club. I believe there were still 20-30 men there drinking at the time of the murder. And you didnt need to be a member to attend meetings.
            Yes, Michael!

            I also read somewhere, probably in the press reports on Casebook, that people, non-members, could have a drink in clubs like the IWMEC after the pubs were closed.

            Karsten.​

            Comment


            • Originally posted by S.Brett View Post
              I also read somewhere, probably in the press reports on Casebook, that people, non-members, could have a drink in clubs like the IWMEC after the pubs were closed.
              Hi Karsten.

              What was it I saw somewhere about the police entering the club and trying to do a bit of entrapment over tobacco sales? I don't think I dreamed it...

              Mark D.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Michael W Richards View Post

                Hi Brett,

                The reason I asked to review closing times for pubs, and in particular, any on Berner Street is because I believe the only place that one might have purchased a drink at that time of night on Berner was at the International Working Mens Educational club. I believe there were still 20-30 men there drinking at the time of the murder. And you didnt need to be a member to attend meetings.
                Good points Michael, but at the end of the day, all we are told is Pipeman emerged from the doorway of the beer house, not from the beer house itself, that's an assumption we make.

                There is nothing to say if he had been drinking or not, as Karsten as suggested maybe he was simply seeking shelter to light his pipe.

                And of course a pub being closed, is not the same as it being empty .




                Steve


                Comment


                • Originally posted by Mark J D View Post

                  Hi Karsten.

                  What was it I saw somewhere about the police entering the club and trying to do a bit of entrapment over tobacco sales? I don't think I dreamed it...

                  Mark D.
                  Hi Mark!

                  IWMEC? I can remember that some people, via the press, got upset that people are selling tobacco without a licence. Where are the tax collector etc.?

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by S.Brett View Post
                    IWMEC? I can remember that some people, via the press, got upset that people are selling tobacco without a licence. Where are the tax collector etc.?
                    Thanks. I have some kind of memory of deliberate entrapment on the nightof the 'double event'... Did I dream this?

                    M.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Elamarna View Post

                      Good points Michael, but at the end of the day, all we are told is Pipeman emerged from the doorway of the beer house, not from the beer house itself, that's an assumption we make.

                      There is nothing to say if he had been drinking or not, as Karsten as suggested maybe he was simply seeking shelter to light his pipe.

                      And of course a pub being closed, is not the same as it being empty .




                      Steve

                      I find "Pipeman" interesting because Stride held Cachous in her hand. At that time the tobaccos were "stronger" and Cachous were used by Pipesmokers to freshen the breath.

                      It is hard to believe that Stride was able to hold the Cachous in her hand while attacking by BS Man but anything is possible. And itīs hard to believe that both people calmed down after the attack and went into the yard.

                      Anderson once said there were clues, a smashed pipe in Kellyīs room etc. blabla...

                      Swanson stated:

                      "On crossing to the opposite side of the street, he (Schwartz) saw a second man (Pipeman) standing lighting his pipe ... (BS Man) called out apparently to the man (Pipeman) on the opposite of the road "Lipski"... Swanson: "The use of "Lipski" increases my belief that the murderer was a Jew"

                      I donīt know what you are thinking but to me it seems that "Pipeman" could have been Jewish and he probably was found. Swanson certainly knew of the man of Jewish appearance seen by a policeman near Mitre Square who only could say: ... in height & build... it also is possible that Schwartz could identify "Pipeman" but he was not the attacker of Stride.

                      "Yes, it is the second man, the man with the pipe" (Schwartz) & "He could it be" (PC near Mitre Square) and "Heīs not the man I have seen" (Lawende) does not really help. You need another witness.

                      A victim who is weakened after an attack (Stride, Emma Smith) was an easy (unexpected) prey for Jack the Ripper, I guess. "Here, have some Cachous" can build up trust. Maybe it was not "his preferred time (and place)" but suddenly she was there, served on a silver platter.

                      The same with Kelly. A woman who was (maybe) throwing up, weakened after a hard night, seen by the Ripper, much later in the morning than the most of us think, who offered to help... "Letīs get home, I will light a fire" (The Ripper).

                      It is possible that "Pipeman" ,after the pubs were closed, was looking for another "bar", possibly the IWMEC.

                      Karsten.​

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Mark J D View Post

                        Thanks. I have some kind of memory of deliberate entrapment on the nightof the 'double event'... Did I dream this?

                        M.
                        If you did not dream this we will find it...

                        Karsten.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by S.Brett View Post

                          I find "Pipeman" interesting because Stride held Cachous in her hand. At that time the tobaccos were "stronger" and Cachous were used by Pipesmokers to freshen the breath.

                          It is hard to believe that Stride was able to hold the Cachous in her hand while attacking by BS Man but anything is possible. And itīs hard to believe that both people calmed down after the attack and went into the yard.

                          Anderson once said there were clues, a smashed pipe in Kellyīs room etc. blabla...

                          Swanson stated:

                          "On crossing to the opposite side of the street, he (Schwartz) saw a second man (Pipeman) standing lighting his pipe ... (BS Man) called out apparently to the man (Pipeman) on the opposite of the road "Lipski"... Swanson: "The use of "Lipski" increases my belief that the murderer was a Jew"

                          I donīt know what you are thinking but to me it seems that "Pipeman" could have been Jewish and he probably was found. Swanson certainly knew of the man of Jewish appearance seen by a policeman near Mitre Square who only could say: ... in height & build... it also is possible that Schwartz could identify "Pipeman" but he was not the attacker of Stride.

                          "Yes, it is the second man, the man with the pipe" (Schwartz) & "He could it be" (PC near Mitre Square) and "Heīs not the man I have seen" (Lawende) does not really help. You need another witness.

                          A victim who is weakened after an attack (Stride, Emma Smith) was an easy (unexpected) prey for Jack the Ripper, I guess. "Here, have some Cachous" can build up trust. Maybe it was not "his preferred time (and place)" but suddenly she was there, served on a silver platter.

                          The same with Kelly. A woman who was (maybe) throwing up, weakened after a hard night, seen by the Ripper, much later in the morning than the most of us think, who offered to help... "Letīs get home, I will light a fire" (The Ripper).

                          It is possible that "Pipeman" ,after the pubs were closed, was looking for another "bar", possibly the IWMEC.

                          Karsten.​
                          Well reasoned as always Karsten and interesting
                          I still must say I prefer BS man as the killer.



                          Steve

                          Comment


                          • It is hard to believe that Stride was able to hold the Cachous in her hand while attacking by BS Man but anything is possible. And itīs hard to believe that both people calmed down after the attack and went into the yard.

                            Hello S. Brett,

                            If you continue that line of reasoning what conclusion do you reach?

                            c.d.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by c.d. View Post
                              It is hard to believe that Stride was able to hold the Cachous in her hand while attacking by BS Man but anything is possible. And itīs hard to believe that both people calmed down after the attack and went into the yard.

                              Hello S. Brett,

                              If you continue that line of reasoning what conclusion do you reach?

                              c.d.
                              Hallo c.d.,

                              Maybe they knew each other, Stride & BS Man.

                              If Pipeman gave her the cachous shortly before BS Man arrived, she may have felt more safe than with BS Man (she knew) alone, as long as Pipeman was still around.​

                              Karsten.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Elamarna View Post

                                I still must say I prefer BS man as the killer.

                                Very possibly you are absolutely right, Steven!

                                You know me...​

                                Comment

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