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  • Originally posted by Wickerman View Post
    It's just that Batty is only 100 ft from Christian St., so from Spooner, how could he fail to notice three men coming up the street from Berner shouting at the top of their voice? PC Lamb said he could have seen anyone running away from 40 Berner from his beat in Commercial Rd., that's about 300 ft, so lighting cannot have been a problem.
    Even if you want Koz. to leave the trio by running up Batty, Spooner was near enough to have seen & especially heard, the three men coming from Berner St.
    Rethink?
    Hi Jon,

    The same goes for Lamb when he was alerted to the murder. The way his testimony reads, certainly doesn't suggest that one (Kozebrodski) surfaced from Batty Street - which would only have been some 30 yards away from where Lamb was at the moment - while the other had come running from further away, the direction of Berner Street. It reads as if the two men came running to him together and from further away than Batty Street. Also, Kozebrodski stated that he "went into the Commercial-road along with Eagle", which supports the notion that Kozebrodski had joined Eagle before the latter had reached Commercial Road and that they came running towards Lamb together (and that Kozebrodski hadn't just joined Eagle right under Lamb's nose).

    Everything's possible of course, but the evidence sure doesn't read as if Kozebrodski was joining Eagle in Commercial Road from Batty Street, only some 30 yards away from Lamb.

    The best,
    Frank​

    PS Kozebrodski is stated to have said "I afterwards went into Commercial-road along with Eagle", which would support the idea that he first finished his search "in the direction of Grove Street", then returned to where he started from - Berner Street - and then joined Eagle somewhere before the latter reached Commercial Road.
    Last edited by FrankO; 09-18-2023, 08:55 AM.
    "You can rob me, you can starve me and you can beat me and you can kill me. Just don't bore me."
    Clint Eastwood as Gunny in "Heartbreak Ridge"

    Comment


    • Originally posted by NotBlamedForNothing View Post

      I wonder how many of the 28 were from the club? At 1am, there were at least two in the kitchen and two others in the editor's office.
      Arbeter Fraint, October 5 1888

      "At about 12 o’clock all the non-members scattered, and about twenty of the members remained in the club. These same [members] created a choir and sang various songs, for the most part, Russian".​

      Comment


      • Originally posted by GBinOz View Post
        ...
        This suggests to me that, apart from Diemshitz and Koze , there were other members that left to search for a policeman - so a minimum of four in total.

        Do you think it is possible that Eagle actually said "Diemshitz and Jacobs" but The Daily Telegraph reported "Diemshitz and another man", the Times reported "Jacobs and another man"? Bear in mind that other publications didn't report either. Are you aware of other publications that reported in the form of "X and another man"?
        Hi George.

        Yes, I think Diemshutz, being the club steward likely sent various members to find a policeman, I asked you that just recently.
        I think we have the same problem, it's what we call kicking the can down the road. If we assume, as you say, then we are then including "Jacobs" as one of many legitimate searchers, so then we are faced with - why no further mention of him?
        If you are satisfied this "Jacobs" joined the search team, but went in some completely different direction, then ok. That will then leave the search team of Diem and Koz alone to run down Fairclough, and them two bring back Spooner.
        At the Yard, Koz continues up Berner St. to Commercial Rd., leaving Diem. and Spooner to return into the yard. As far as we can tell, this is what the surviving statements suggest.

        Regards, Jon S.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by NotBlamedForNothing View Post
          ...
          Also consider this:

          Lamb: When I got there I had the gates shut.
          Coroner: But did not the feet of the deceased touch the gate?
          Lamb: No; they went just behind it, and I was able to close the gates without disturbing the body.

          Starting from the gateway, how did Stride end up with her feet partially behind the gate? On the other hand, if she'd been moved toward the gate ...
          It depends what was meant by 'behind', other witnesses suggested her feet were 6-7 feet or 9-10 ft, from the gateway.
          As the alley/passage/yard was only 9ft wide, each gate had to be 4.5ft, so quite some distance from the edge of the open gate to where her feet lay.
          In this case 'behind' does not mean between the closed gate and the house wall, it will mean further inside the yard.
          The gateway is the 'front', when one half of the gate is open the hinge side is at the front, the lock/handle is further back, her feet even further back ie; 'behind'.

          Regards, Jon S.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by FrankO View Post
            Hi Jon,

            The same goes for Lamb when he was alerted to the murder. The way his testimony reads, certainly doesn't suggest that one (Kozebrodski) surfaced from Batty Street - which would only have been some 30 yards away from where Lamb was at the moment - while the other had come running from further away, the direction of Berner Street. It reads as if the two men came running to him together and from further away than Batty Street. Also, Kozebrodski stated that he "went into the Commercial-road along with Eagle", which supports the notion that Kozebrodski had joined Eagle before the latter had reached Commercial Road and that they came running towards Lamb together (and that Kozebrodski hadn't just joined Eagle right under Lamb's nose).

            Everything's possible of course, but the evidence sure doesn't read as if Kozebrodski was joining Eagle in Commercial Road from Batty Street, only some 30 yards away from Lamb.

            The best,
            Frank​

            PS Kozebrodski is stated to have said "I afterwards went into Commercial-road along with Eagle", which would support the idea that he first finished his search "in the direction of Grove Street", then returned to where he started from - Berner Street - and then joined Eagle somewhere before the latter reached Commercial Road.
            Absolutely, yes Frank, this is just how I see it.
            The fly in the ointment is with Eagle, there must be some kind of delay for Koz. to catch Eagle in Commercial St. well before they both met up with PC Lamb.
            Either, Eagle did not leave the yard at the same time as Diem. and Koz. (who went south), or when Eagle came out of Berner street he must have run west, then turned back to run towards Grove, and picked up Koz. as he came back across Berner running east?
            PC Smith came from the west along Commercial Rd. but he must have been in Backchurch lane when Eagle came west, they obviously didn't meet each other, if this is what happened.
            Regards, Jon S.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Wickerman View Post
              The fly in the ointment is with Eagle, there must be some kind of delay for Koz. to catch Eagle in Commercial St. well before they both met up with PC Lamb.
              I agree, Jon.

              Either, Eagle did not leave the yard at the same time as Diem. and Koz. (who went south), or when Eagle came out of Berner street he must have run west, then turned back to run towards Grove, and picked up Koz. as he came back across Berner running east?
              I think it's a bit of both; Eagle had to come from above, in the singing room, so he went out somewhat later than Diemshutz and I think he did first turn left on reaching Commercial Road as you suggest, giving Kozebrodski time to catch up with Eagle.

              PC Smith came from the west along Commercial Rd. but he must have been in Backchurch lane when Eagle came west, they obviously didn't meet each other, if this is what happened.
              Wherever Smith was, it must have been somewhere that he wouldn't have seen or heard Eagle & Kozebrodski or the yelling of any other people.

              Cheers,
              Frank
              "You can rob me, you can starve me and you can beat me and you can kill me. Just don't bore me."
              Clint Eastwood as Gunny in "Heartbreak Ridge"

              Comment


              • Originally posted by FrankO View Post

                ....I think it's a bit of both; Eagle had to come from above, in the singing room, so he went out somewhat later than Diemshutz and I think he did first turn left on reaching Commercial Road as you suggest, giving Kozebrodski time to catch up with Eagle.
                Eagle says he was upstairs, and the first he heard of the murder was from another member - Gidleman/Gilleman came up shouting there was a dead woman in the yard.
                This must have been later as Diem. was the first to enter the club looking for his wife, he was not aware the figure outside was a dead woman. So members came out with him, it must have been then that this Gilleman came out and back in then upstairs. So there was plenty of time for Diem. & Koz to have left before Eagel even heard about the body.

                One major problem we have in sorting out a sequence is, we cannot easily recognise when a witness is summarizing what he knows, as opposed to describing what he witnesses.
                Like, Eagle might say he was outside with Koz., and that Diem, himself & another man went to look for a policeman. He makes it sound like they all left togather, when he may be summarizing. Each man may have left at five minute intervals - all he is doing is saying who went for a policeman as a summary.
                We can't tell, but even in the Arbieter Frient it seems Eagle was not one of the first to run off to look for a policeman, he describes lingering around the body, Diem. & others could have been long gone by the time he decided to go.
                Regards, Jon S.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by FrankO View Post

                  I think it's a bit of both; Eagle had to come from above, in the singing room, so he went out somewhat later than Diemshutz and I think he did first turn left on reaching Commercial Road as you suggest, giving Kozebrodski time to catch up with Eagle.

                  Cheers,
                  Frank
                  Hi Frank and Jon,

                  I agree that it seems more likely that Koze met up with Eagle via a return to the yard and going up Berner to Commercial. However, there is this:
                  [Coroner] Did you touch the body? - No, I ran off at once for the police. I could not find a constable in the direction which I took, so I shouted out "Police!" as loudly as I could. A man whom I met in Grove- street returned with me, and when we reached the yard he took hold of the head of the deceased. As he lifted it up I saw the wound in the throat.
                  [Coroner] Had the constables arrived then? - At the very same moment Eagle and the constables arrived.


                  That's not much time for Koze to get to Commercial, locate Eagle, run down Commercial to Lamb, and return to the yard.

                  Your scenario works better if Koze left the yard earlier than Diemshitz, on Diemshitz's instruction, and returned to the yard earlier than Diemshitz and Spooner, but that would require a different man to have been with Diemshitz.......Jacobs?

                  Best regards, George
                  It's sad that governments are chiefed by the double tongues. There is iron in your words of death for all Comanche to see, and so there is iron in your words of life. It shall be life. - Ten Bears

                  All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. - Bladerunner

                  ​Disagreeing doesn't have to be disagreeable - Jeff Hamm

                  Comment


                  • As we seem to have statements from some witnesses taken by the press before the inquest, as well as some of those same witnesses giving testimony at the inquest, I wondered if there might be differences that could help untangle some of the contentious issues.

                    All press reports below are taken from 1st Oct. newspapers, before the inquest.

                    In the Irish Times we read a statement by Eagle, he mentions "others" being with him in the yard with the body, but makes no mention of Diemshutz being there. Eagle says as he noticed the blood, he immediately ran for police.

                    Then we have a statement by Diemshutz, who tells his story, but that when he lit a candle and discovered all the blood, he also immediately left to find a policeman.

                    The Arbeter Freint appears to report the discovery was made by Diemshutz, but only after someone called Gilyarovsky (Gilleman?) came upstairs and announced there's a dead woman in the yard, did Eagle come down.
                    It's quite possible this is the delay, as Eagle makes no mention of Diemshutz being in the yard, he might have already gone, along with Koz.

                    So here we see Diemshutz find the body, he runs in to the club saying there's a woman out there, maybe drunk. He is followed outside by several members, Koz. is one, and Giyarovsky is another. They light a candle, discover the blood, some run back inside, Gilyarovsky runs upstairs shouting about a dead woman in the yard. Only at this point does Eagle come down - there we have our delay.
                    Diemshutz did not go back into the club a second time, he, along with Koz. ran for police.
                    Eagle came out minutes later, he looked around, then lit a match, noticed the blood, and then ran for police.

                    The Morning Advertiser gives Diemshutz words:
                    "A member named Isaacs went down to the yard with me, and we struck a match and saw the blood right from the gate up the yard. Then we both went for the police, but unfortunately it was several minutes before we could find a constable. At last another member of the club named Eagle, who ran out after us and went in a different direction, found one somewhere in Commercial road."

                    The Evening Standard reports:
                    Eagle: "I went to look for a policeman, at the request of Diemshitz, or some member of the Club; but I took the direction towards Grove-street, and could not find one."
                    Eagle knew Diemshutz was the steward, he would be the one in charge, yet someone said to go find the police, Eagle expected that to be Diemshutz taking control, but it was someone else, Diemshutz had already left. What Eagle is saying is, he thought is was Diemshutz, but it could have been someone else.

                    There we are, Diem. & Isaacs (Koz.) do not go back into the club, they leave straight away for police. Eagle came out after them, that is, came out of the club.
                    Diemshutz & Koz. have already left. Eagle ponders around the body, lights a match, discovers the blood, and runs off for police.
                    So Eagle leaves several minutes after Diemshutz

                    The first mention we have of Eagle by Diemshutz is after they get back, Eagle comes into the yard with police, after Diem. & Spooner had been back maybe five minutes.
                    Some newspapers report that Diemshutz, Eagle, Kozebrodski, etc. went for police, which must be a summary, not that they all went away at the same time, which we have wrongly been assuming, but that those members were the ones responsible for alerting police.

                    It will only take a minute or two for Diem & Koz. to run along Fairclough to Grove, then run back with Spooner in tow.
                    All three return to Dutfields Yard, Diem. & Spooner go into the yard, Koz. see no police here yet, so continues up Berner St. and finds Eagle who had just left the yard.
                    Whether Eagle had mistakenly run west on Commercial does not matter, if he was late leaving the yard by several minutes, that is all it would take to allow Koz. to catch up with him.
                    Regards, Jon S.

                    Comment


                    • The Evening Standard quote above is wrong, it is cut & paste from the wrong source - pls ignore that reference.
                      I have not been able to find any quote by Eagle that includes Diemshutz.
                      Last edited by Wickerman; 09-18-2023, 10:12 PM.
                      Regards, Jon S.

                      Comment


                      • Ah, this is the paper - the Daily News (not Evening Standard), where Eagle mentions Diemshutz, but he had already left the yard.

                        Eagle: "After I got into the club there was some singing, and after I had been in 20 minutes a man came in and said something about a woman being in the yard. I went into the yard and struck a match, and then I could see that there was blood on the ground. I heard Diemschitz calling for the police, and I ran into the Commercial-road. I found two officers at the corner of Christian-street, and told them what was the matter."

                        I think we've assumed Eagle and Diemshutz were in the yard at the same time. For the above to be consistent with everything else that has been reported, it must mean Eagle could hear the voice of Diemshutz shouting for a policeman, not that Diemshutz was in the yard ordering others to look for police.
                        Diemshutz does admit to be shouting as he was running along Fairclough.
                        Regards, Jon S.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by GBinOz View Post

                          Hi Frank and Jon,

                          I agree that it seems more likely that Koze met up with Eagle via a return to the yard and going up Berner to Commercial. However, there is this:
                          [Coroner] Did you touch the body? - No, I ran off at once for the police. I could not find a constable in the direction which I took, so I shouted out "Police!" as loudly as I could. A man whom I met in Grove- street returned with me, and when we reached the yard he took hold of the head of the deceased. As he lifted it up I saw the wound in the throat.
                          [Coroner] Had the constables arrived then? - At the very same moment Eagle and the constables arrived.


                          That's not much time for Koze to get to Commercial, locate Eagle, run down Commercial to Lamb, and return to the yard.

                          Your scenario works better if Koze left the yard earlier than Diemshitz, on Diemshitz's instruction, and returned to the yard earlier than Diemshitz and Spooner, but that would require a different man to have been with Diemshitz.......Jacobs?

                          Best regards, George
                          Here George.

                          Would you mind reading this?

                          "Lewis Diemschitz, steward of the International Working Men's Educational Club, was the next witness. He stated that he left the Club about half past eleven on Saturday morning, and returned exactly at one o'clock on Sunday morning. He had a costermonger's barrow and pony, and drove into the yard. Both gates were wide open. It was very dark. His pony shied, and he looked down to the ground and saw something lying there, but he could not see what it was. He jumped down and struck a match, but the night being windy he could only see it was some person lying there. He went into the Club and in the front room he found several members, and told them a woman was lying in the yard. He got a candle, and went out at once and discovered a quantity of blood around the body. He did not touch the body, but at once went for the police. He passed several streets without seeing a policeman and returned without one. A man named Isaacs was with him, and they were both shouting for the police. Another man returned with them into the yard, and took hold of the woman's head".
                          North Eastern Daily Gazette, 3 Oct.
                          Regards, Jon S.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Wickerman View Post


                            The Morning Advertiser gives Diemshutz words:
                            "A member named Isaacs went down to the yard with me, andwe struck a match and saw the blood right from the gate up the yard. Then we both went for the police, but unfortunately it was several minutes before we could find a constable. At last another member of the club named Eagle, who ran out after us and went in a different direction, found one somewhere in Commercial road."

                            .

                            Blood right from the gate?

                            Not from the "direction of the gate" OR "from the body"... but from the gate itself.


                            Does this indicate that Stride had her throat cut nearer the gate and then either crawled towards the club, or was she moved?


                            Diemschutz had driven his cart PAST the body on the floor and when he got off the cart to look at the heap on the floor, he and the cart were BOTH further into the yard than Stride.

                            How much distance is there, between the club side door to the gate?

                            Stride was inside the gate because the gate could close without disturbing the body...but blood FROM THE GATE implies that Stride was cut as she stood by the gate.


                            RD
                            "Great minds, don't think alike"

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Wickerman View Post

                              The Arbeter Freint appears to report the discovery was made by Diemshutz, but only after someone called Gilyarovsky (Gilleman?) came upstairs and announced there's a dead woman in the yard, did Eagle come down.
                              It's quite possible this is the delay, as Eagle makes no mention of Diemshutz being in the yard, he might have already gone, along with Koz.
                              Hi Jon,

                              This an opinion by Tom Wescott:

                              I suspect that Gilyarovsky is one and the same as 'Gilman' mentioned in some press reports and, as Maria suggested, might be one and the same as Isaac Kozebrodski, who was fond of changing his name (he was known by most clubmen as 'Isaacs').

                              It is from here:
                              https://forum.casebook.org/forum/rip...t-s-take/page4

                              Cheers, George
                              It's sad that governments are chiefed by the double tongues. There is iron in your words of death for all Comanche to see, and so there is iron in your words of life. It shall be life. - Ten Bears

                              All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. - Bladerunner

                              ​Disagreeing doesn't have to be disagreeable - Jeff Hamm

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by The Rookie Detective View Post


                                Blood right from the gate?

                                Not from the "direction of the gate" OR "from the body"... but from the gate itself.


                                Does this indicate that Stride had her throat cut nearer the gate and then either crawled towards the club, or was she moved?


                                Diemschutz had driven his cart PAST the body on the floor and when he got off the cart to look at the heap on the floor, he and the cart were BOTH further into the yard than Stride.

                                How much distance is there, between the club side door to the gate?

                                Stride was inside the gate because the gate could close without disturbing the body...but blood FROM THE GATE implies that Stride was cut as she stood by the gate.


                                RD
                                There's a quote in the press somewhere that describes Stride's head was near to the house wall, but in the gutter. There was a channel in the bricks of the yard, either worn-in by the iron-shod cart wheels, or intentionally made for rainwater to run to a drain.
                                As it had been raining that night it might be possible her blood ran from the neck and made it's way towards the gate, aided by the rain. Liquid attracts liquid.
                                Regards, Jon S.

                                Comment

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