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The Stride Murder

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  • Originally posted by S.Brett View Post

    Very possibly you are absolutely right, Steven!

    You know me...​
    If she was dragged back to the spot where she was killed and was attempting to fight off the B.S. man how likely is it that the cachous (in tissue) would have spilled out?

    c.d.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by c.d. View Post

      If she was dragged back to the spot where she was killed and was attempting to fight off the B.S. man how likely is it that the cachous (in tissue) would have spilled out?

      c.d.
      Some of them could be found in the yard.

      Comment


      • If Liz Stride was attacked while inside the passageway, which is most probable, then considering Blackwells statements, she may have had her back turned to her killer while she was leaving the passage to go back out into the street. She may have just taken the cashous from her pocket as he grabbed her by the scarf, twisted it and pulled it, then just slid a knife across her throat while she fell. Liz had bruises on the inside of each shoulder. Could they be from someone pinning her back to the wall with both hands, then she slips out of that hold and starts to head out, when....Ive always thought she might have been propositioned and refused rudely. She was someone who could be "disorderly" at times. It also seems that anyone describing her garments that night suggested she was dressed nicely, flower on her jacket, she even wanted to brush lint from her skirt before going out. I think servicing men in that area wouldnt require anything "nice" to be worn. But that doesnt mean someone might have assumed....(like many people here for example), that she was on the prowl for money.

        Liz Stride had been getting work in the weeks leading up to this night, she had spilt from Kidney, and she had been at work "among the jews" as a charwoman. Let me ask you, since the club was run by Jews, and was Im sure a mess after what was supposedly a large meeting that ended at 11:30, and since she shows up there around 12:30...had she been hired by one of her Jewish clients to clean up the Club after that meeting? If so, would it be reasonable to expect that if a Jewish man hired her that he had responsibilities at the club? Perhaps a steward, or a stewards wife? Just considering the questions and possible answers...dont anyone get their knickers all twisted.... yet.

        As far as where Pipeman might have come from, last call in the pubs was generally 20-30 minutes before closing time. We see that Goldstein left the pub he was at at midnight, closing time. Why would we assume that Pipeman would loiter in a doorway of a closed pub? He wasnt seen on the street by anyone who saw that street between 12:30 and 12:45, just Israels claim he saw him at 12:45. And also, which address on Berner St, close to the Mens Club, was a pub? I dont recall seeing one on the census data.

        I believe the only "pub" that was open at that time was the bar upstairs at the club, which was in essence, just acting as a "pub" at that hour.
        Last edited by Michael W Richards; 08-28-2023, 05:50 PM.

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        • Originally posted by Michael W Richards View Post
          If Liz Stride was attacked while inside the passageway, which is most probable, then considering Blackwells statements, she may have had her back turned to her killer while she was leaving the passage to go back out into the street. She may have just taken the cashous from her pocket as he grabbed her by the scarf, twisted it and pulled it, then just slid a knife across her throat while she fell. Liz had bruises on the inside of each shoulder. Could they be from someone pinning her back to the wall with both hands, then she slips out of that hold and starts to head out, when....Ive always thought she might have been propositioned and refused rudely. She was someone who could be "disorderly" at times. It also seems that anyone describing her garments that night suggested she was dressed nicely, flower on her jacket, she even wanted to brush lint from her skirt before going out. I think servicing men in that area wouldnt require anything "nice" to be worn. But that doesnt mean someone might have assumed....(like many people here for example), that she was on the prowl for money.

          Liz Stride had been getting work in the weeks leading up to this night, she had spilt from Kidney, and she had been at work "among the jews" as a charwoman. Let me ask you, since the club was run by Jews, and was Im sure a mess after what was supposedly a large meeting that ended at 11:30, and since she shows up there around 12:30...had she been hired by one of her Jewish clients to clean up the Club after that meeting? If so, would it be reasonable to expect that if a Jewish man hired her that he had responsibilities at the club? Perhaps a steward, or a stewards wife? Just considering the questions and possible answers...dont anyone get their knickers all twisted.... yet.

          As far as where Pipeman might have come from, last call in the pubs was generally 20-30 minutes before closing time. We see that Goldstein left the pub he was at at midnight, closing time. Why would we assume that Pipeman would loiter in a doorway of a closed pub? He wasnt seen on the street by anyone who saw that street between 12:30 and 12:45, just Israels claim he saw him at 12:45. And also, which address on Berner St, close to the Mens Club, was a pub? I dont recall seeing one on the census data.

          I believe the only "pub" that was open at that time was the bar upstairs at the club, which was in essence, just acting as a "pub" at that hour.
          Did Spooner see Leon Goldstein, Michael?

          If I got it right Goldstein turned into Fairclough Street, Spooner said he was standing at the corner of Fairclough Street/ Christian Street (22 Christian Street was the home of Leon Goldstein).

          Goldstein turned from Commercial Road into Berner Street, coming from Spectacle Alley. On Commercial Road he did not walk to the northern end of Christian Street (his home).

          I must confess I do not know much about Mrs. Mortimer and Spooner. So I need your help.

          Is it possible that Pipeman, if he was the murderer of Stride, lost some of his remaining cachous in the yard while attacking Stride?

          Btw.:

          A BS Man was found, it was similar to the Batty Street incident but he had an alibi.

          Karsten.​

          Comment


          • Hello Karsten,

            The doctor stated he was the one who spilled the cachous when attempting to remove them from her hand.

            c.d.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by c.d. View Post
              Hello Karsten,

              The doctor stated he was the one who spilled the cachous when attempting to remove them from her hand.

              c.d.
              Thanks c.d.,

              I couldnīt remember...

              Comment


              • Originally posted by S.Brett View Post

                If you did not dream this we will find it...

                Karsten.
                I’ve been trying to find this tobacco reference it but no luck so far Karsten. I do think that Mark’s right though as I have a similar memory floating around. Didn’t someone from the club offer cigars (or a cigar) to one of the officers? It’s an annoyingly vague memory though.
                Regards

                Sir Herlock Sholmes.

                “A house of delusions is cheap to build but draughty to live in.”

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post

                  I’ve been trying to find this tobacco reference it but no luck so far Karsten. I do think that Mark’s right though as I have a similar memory floating around. Didn’t someone from the club offer cigars (or a cigar) to one of the officers? It’s an annoyingly vague memory though.
                  Hi Michael, Mark,

                  I found this:

                  The Star,1 OCTOBER, 1888.

                  "In the midst of the excitement following on the Berner-street murder, some of the police were mean enough to try to purchase tobacco and drink from some of the members of the Jewish club. Money was tendered when request was made, but was, of course, refused. The police were not so entirely absorbed in endeavoring to catch the criminal but that they could attempt to inveigle innocent persons into committing a petty crime for the sake of securing a paltry conviction".​

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post

                    I’ve been trying to find this tobacco reference it but no luck so far Karsten. I do think that Mark’s right though as I have a similar memory floating around. Didn’t someone from the club offer cigars (or a cigar) to one of the officers? It’s an annoyingly vague memory though.
                    Might it have been in someone's kind Arbeter Fraint​ translation? As I recall, the cops have arrived, and one of them demands that the lad behind the bar sells him one of those nice cigars. Typical copper trick; but the kid won't do it because he knows full well it's after hours and they'd get battered by the Magistrate. Presumably there was a reliable clock, then. And from this story we also see the kind of pressure that the Club was under: the police were out to get them -- godless anarchist socialist Yids trying to bring down all that we hold dear! -- and anything would do. Next thing, we get a lovely story about a passing antisemite being seen attacking a woman, and the Club is untouchable over the murder, too. Neat footwork.

                    Mark D.
                    Last edited by Mark J D; 08-28-2023, 07:18 PM.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Mark J D View Post

                      Might it have been in someone's kind Arbeter Fraint​ translation? As I recall, the cops have arrived, and one of them demands that the lad behind the bar sells him one of those nice cigars. Typical copper trick; but the kid won't do it because he knows full well it's after hours and they'd get battered by the Magistrate. Presumably there was a reliable clock, then. And from this story we also see the kind of pressure that the Club was under: the police were out to get them -- godless anarchist socialist Yids trying to bring down all that we hold dear! -- and anything would do. Next thing, we get a lovely story about a passing antisemite being seen attacking a woman, and the Club is untouchable over the murder, too. Neat footwork.

                      Mark D.
                      You are right, Mark!

                      Arbeter Fraint, October 5 1888:

                      "The headman of this group also wanted to create difficulties for the club. Pretending that he was in a hurry, he asked if he could buy several cigars. Dimshits responded with a question: didn’t he know that the law, which he protects, forbids strangers from selling cigars in a club. If he wanted [however] they could give him two cigars. The police big shot did not refuse and asked to be given [the cigars]".​

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Fleetwood Mac View Post

                        I think we'd need to take Macnaghten's full statement into account, Steve:

                        No one ever saw the Whitechapel murderer (unless possibly it was the City P.C. who was on a beat near Mitre Square) and no proof could in any way ever be brought against anyone....

                        Whatever was witnessed, it certainly wasn't cast-iron in terms of a City PC seeing Jack.

                        What we don't know is why Macnaghten thought it may have been Jack. Was it necessarily because he was close to the murder site at the time of the murder, or was it some other reason which we don't know, involving something like someone washing his hands or some stop and search and that revealed something, or something entirely different. All we are told is a beat near Mitre Square. Whatever the reason, Macnaghten tells us that it meant 'no proof in any way'.

                        Either way, what we can take from that statement is that Macnaghten believed nobody saw Jack, and he throws out a possibility. He doesn't quantify how possible but I think we can take it as an outside chance, 'unless possibly', an afterthought on the main contention.

                        ​The City PC may well have been overplayed in terms of importance.
                        MM simply mixed up pc smith at dutfields and lawende at mitre square.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Michael W Richards View Post

                          If Liz Stride was attacked while inside the passageway, which is most probable, then considering Blackwells statements, she may have had her back turned to her killer while she was leaving the passage to go back out into the street. She may have just taken the cashous from her pocket as he grabbed her by the scarf,
                          Would cachous have been a part of the life of the most desperate in the Victorian era? I'm sceptical. Sweets were a luxury even for the poor who were better off than Liz.

                          Liz is lodging at Flower and Dean Street, supposedly the most desperate street in London.

                          I think she may have been like Annie and Mary in that a spare shilling would have gone on a plate of potatoes or bread, some of which was saved for a rainy day; stale or otherwise.

                          Which suggests that Liz was given those cachous.

                          Which in turn suggests this was not the sort of attack supposedly witnessed by Schwartz, but more a pretty amicable exchange until the knife was produced and Liz didn't have time to react (see below regarding unopened cachous).

                          Who gave them to her? Who would be wandering around with cachous? The type of client Liz usually encountered? Probably not, given that they were more or less in the same boat and more than likely half cut from the pub: in all probability cachous and breath wasn't of any consequence to them.

                          Which homicidal, depraved, misanthrope was seen walking down the street, near the time of the murder, with a shiny, black bag; and was in the cigarette business meaning cachous would have been a natural accompaniment and side order?

                          Ladies and gentleman: I give you Leon Goldstein, or should I say Jack.

                          The sweet trick was designed to get his bag open without arousing suspicion, he handed the cachous over, kept his bag open; and while Liz was trying to get a cachous out and was looking elsewhere, Leon/Jack reached for his implement 'that the ladies don't like'.

                          To support this, Dr Blackwell stated:

                          The left hand, lying on the ground, was partially closed, and contained a small packet of cachous wrapped in tissue paper.

                          It was I who spilt them in removing them from the hand.


                          Which suggests that these cachous hadn't been opened by Liz, and the time between being given the cachous and losing her life was not long enough for Liz to get one of those sweets out of the wrapper.​

                          ​The fact that only Liz was found with sweets in her hand may add to Leon/Jack being interrupted: Liz was the only victim he couldn't retrieve the sweets from because he didn't have time.

                          Case solved?

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Fleetwood Mac View Post

                            I don't. In the event there ever was a City PC 'near' Mitre Square who 'possibly' saw Jack, then I'd say it was neither Watkins nor Harvey, but some other PC on a nearby beat.

                            Watkins' own statement at the inquest, suggests he was not the supposed City PC.
                            If you read the whole of MM's paper you'll see he writes about three Jews who rode up in a cart, or words to that effect. He's clearly, in my opinion, confusing the two murders, Berner St. (the cart) with Mitre Sq. (three Jews) and the only PC who is genuinely reported to have handed in a suspect description is PC Smith.
                            I know Abby made the same point, I just added a bit of clarity as to why we both see it that way.
                            The City PC per se does not exist.
                            Regards, Jon S.

                            Comment


                            • The way I see the stride murder going down is like this-

                              Stride is recently single-shes not neccessarily out for a quick prostitution buck, but maybe out to find a new boyfriend/sugar daddy..perhaps why she s taking special care that night to look very attractive and not just jumping into the nearest alley asap as soon as she hooks up. She meets peaked cap man(the ripper), and seen together by marshall, smith and schwartz. Hes trying to finagle her into a dark alley but shes reluctant for the reasons above. Hes buying her stuff, spending too much time with her and finally loses his patience and leaves her. Hes stewing as he walks away and loses his temper and walks back to her where shes standing in front of dutfields yard. this is where schwartz sees him as hes returning to stride. In anger he roughs her up, yells at schwartz and cuts her throat and bolts.Stride, hand to her throat wound stumbles into the yard toward the voices and perceived help but expires in the yard. The ripper leaves to find a more accomodating victim in eddowes at mitre square.

                              and if anyone mentions the stupid cashoo I will reach through the internet and slap you. lol

                              Comment


                              • and if anyone mentions the stupid cashoo I will reach through the internet and slap you. lol

                                Says the man who can't complete a sentence without including the mention of a peaked cap.

                                c.d.

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