The Stride Murder

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

Hi Jon,

I have the same reservation. How could Goldstein have anticipated that there wouldn't be a single police officer in attendance at his two appearances at the station? What if they had both been summonsed to the inquest?

Cheers, George

Do we know that Goldstein and Schwartz were not seen by the same policeman at the station (and not necessarily the one conducting the interview)?

[GBinOz]

Didn't you suggest Goldstein went to police twice, once as Schwartz, then as Goldstein, and the police didin't recognize the same man?
Isn't that making things more complicated?

Hi Jon,

I have the same reservation. How could Goldstein have anticipated that there wouldn't be a single police officer in attendance at his two appearances at the station? What if they had both been summonsed to the inquest?

Cheers, George

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

Imagine if everything was the same, except that the man who went to Leman St on the evening following the murder, gave the name Leon Goldstein. So, a member of the club does nothing about an assault on a woman at the gateway leading to the side door of the club. He implicates a gentile as being the probable murderer and waits many hours to go to the police. At least 'Israel Schwartz' had an excuse for hesitating to go to the police - the poor chap was terribly frightened! Leon Goldstein couldn't use that excuse.

There is another big problem with Schwartz using his real name. Wess had already told the Echo reporter that a chase had occurred down Fairclough St at about 12:45, and that he had been told the name of the man who did the chasing, that is, Pipeman. How would it look if Goldstein said he was the man being chased? How could it be that Wess was informed of Pipeman's name and knew this man was not a club member, but by the time he is talking to the Echo that afternoon, he still is not aware that the man he was chasing was Goldstein, someone he surely knew personally?

Having decided to go to the police, Leon Goldstein had to go using a pseudonym. Why this decision was made is a further debate, but the theory that Goldstein used a pseudonym when he went to the police fits well with the evidence.

I don't follow all of the above, in particular the very first sentence!

I have a feeling of déjà vu.

Someone suggested previously that Goldstein and Schwartz were the same person.

I remember replying that the police would surely have realised that a deception had taken place.

I am sceptical about Wess' story about witnessing a chase at a time when, according to his testimony, he was not even around.

I do not see any evidence that Pipe Man was involved in the chase.

Why would Goldstein disguise himself as Schwartz and on the very same evening present himself as Goldstein at the same police station and how could the police have failed to realise that they were the same person?

[Wickerman]

Didn't you suggest Goldstein went to police twice, once as Schwartz, then as Goldstein, and the police didin't recognize the same man?
Isn't that making things more complicated?

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Why do you think Israel Schwartz went to the police if he was not who he claimed to be?

Why would he have gone to the police if he had some guilty secret?

Imagine if everything was the same, except that the man who went to Leman St on the evening following the murder, gave the name Leon Goldstein. So, a member of the club does nothing about an assault on a woman at the gateway leading to the side door of the club. He implicates a gentile as being the probable murderer and waits many hours to go to the police. At least 'Israel Schwartz' had an excuse for hesitating to go to the police - the poor chap was terribly frightened! Leon Goldstein couldn't use that excuse.

There is another big problem with Schwartz using his real name. Wess had already told the Echo reporter that a chase had occurred down Fairclough St at about 12:45, and that he had been told the name of the man who did the chasing, that is, Pipeman. How would it look if Goldstein said he was the man being chased? How could it be that Wess was informed of Pipeman's name and knew this man was not a club member, but by the time he is talking to the Echo that afternoon, he still is not aware that the man he was chasing was Goldstein, someone he surely knew personally?

Having decided to go to the police, Leon Goldstein had to go using a pseudonym. Why this decision was made is a further debate, but the theory that Goldstein used a pseudonym when he went to the police fits well with the evidence.

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

No one needs to provide evidence of Jewish violence towards Gentiles, because it has no bearing on whether the Ripper was Jewish.

I think that is wrong.

There were similar accusations on the European continent and in Imperial Russia that Jews were responsible for notorious murders there, on the ground that they were in the habit of committing such violent murders, always involving mutilation, and they were similarly unfounded.

[Fiver]

Kosminski's dog-walking offence made it into the newspapers, and Aaron Abrahams' assault made it, and even the use of Lipski as an insult, but we cannot expect to see a report of a Polish Jew assaulting a Gentile woman?

All that proves is that it was a slow news day when Kosminski was charged with having an unmuzzled dog.

Emma Smith was attacked, but didn't report it to the police and resisted even being taken to the hospital. A lot of crime goes unreported, especially sexual assault.

[Fiver]

I do not need to provide evidence that it was unheard of for Jews to make antisemitic remarks as fellow Jews passed them in the street.

Similarly, I do not need to provide evidence that it was unheard of for Polish Jews to attack Gentile women in Whitechapel.

I did issue a challenge for someone to come up with a single instance of that having happened.

No one ever has.

No one needs to provide evidence of Jewish violence towards Gentiles, because it has no bearing on whether the Ripper was Jewish.

Evidence has already been provided of Jews calling other Jews "Lipski".

[Sunny Delight]

Hi Sunny,

The Church Lane man is certainly an intriguing character. Sadly, there's very little to go on. Assuming the timings are correct (!) there's a very narrow window for him to reach Mitre Square and pick up Kate. One to ponder at any rate.

How narrow would the timing be considering we know that such things were often estimates? That is rather disappointing that nothing further has been unearthed as yet in regards that sighting. It certainly seems one that could have bore some fruit. I suppose it could be that the Police did check it out and that has now been lost to history which is such a pity.

[Herlock Sholmes]

I’ve already said that I have no interest in pursuing the point. I’m done.

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

Kosminski's dog-walking offence made it into the newspapers, and Aaron Abrahams' assault made it, and even the use of Lipski as an insult, but we cannot expect to see a report of a Polish Jew assaulting a Gentile woman?

[Herlock Sholmes]

There’s no need for anyone to do that because, as I said before, most things that occur don’t make the newspapers. The same is the case even today with a massively increased media.

I’ll leave it as it stands before we begin to go around in circles. It’s clear that we disagree. The point isn’t worth pursuing.

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

There is an absence of evidence that something did happen, not that something did not happen!

I do not need to prove that there is no record of Polish Jewish men attacking gentile women in the East End of London.

It is for someone to find an instance of that having happened.

Similarly, I do not need to prove that there is no record of a Jewish serial killer in the history of British crime or that there is no record of a Polish Jewish serial killer anywhere.

It is for others to find one.

[Herlock Sholmes]

I do not need to provide evidence that it was unheard of for Jews to make antisemitic remarks as fellow Jews passed them in the street.

Then I’d have to ask how you can know this considering the absence of evidence for it?

Similarly, I do not need to provide evidence that it was unheard of for Polish Jews to attack Gentile women in Whitechapel.

Then I’d have to ask how you can know this considering the absence of evidence for it?

I did issue a challenge for someone to come up with a single instance of that having happened.

No one ever has.

But no one is claiming that this was a common occurrence. Serial murder isn’t a common occurrence. Many things happen that don’t make the newspapers.

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

Do you think Israel Schwartz gave the police his real name, or a pseudonym?

Why do you think modern researchers have had so much trouble identifying Israel Schwartz in the records?

Why do you think Israel Schwartz went to the police if he was not who he claimed to be?

Why would he have gone to the police if he had some guilty secret?