The Stride Murder

[Wickerman]

Hi Jon,

Dr Phillips recalled:
Neither on the hands nor about the body of the deceased did I find grapes, or connection with them. I am convinced that the deceased had not swallowed either the skin or seed of a grape within many hours of her death.

Dr Blackwell:
[Coroner] Did you perceive any grapes near the body in the yard? - No.
[Coroner] Did you hear any person say that they had seen grapes there? - I did not.

It appears that there was an awareness that grapes had been mentioned, and one wonders why that question was not put to Diemshitz, Smith, Johnson or Spooner.

I agree with you that Packer was much maligned. When initially he said he saw and heard nothing, he, as did many witnesses, left out the word "unusual". The man sold fruit and vegetables for a living, so selling a customer some grapes wasn't unusual until grapes became an issue. Packer correctly identified Stride's body after having been shown Eddowes body as a decoy. The worst that can be said about him was that he became confused about times.

Cheers, George

Thankyou George, yes, your concluding line - which has been my argument for years. Packer was confused about the time, the statements he made demonstrate he was not sure whether the grape buying couple turned up between 11:00 - 11:30 or 12:00 - 12:30.

We know what time it was, and 'we know' because we know Stride was at the Bricklayers Arms about 11:00 pm, Packer did not know this, but the police will have known this. The police though, cannot correct a witness statement, he must do that himself. As he couldn't, the police could not use his statement.
None of which means Packer's evidence was unreliable, because we know the correct time. Oddly, Packer had already given the correct version to the press, that the couple showed up about 11:45, and he last saw them as he shut up his shutters about 12:30. So this is what we can use.

Incidentally, as you may have known, I am aware of what the doctors had testified to (your quotes above), "no evidence of grapes"? - the evidence is eaten, of course there's no evidence. What we do have is a handkerchief with fruit stains, which is what you get when you spit out pips & skin. Ladies use a cloth, a handkerchief, they don't spit in the street, that's what men do.
The handkerchief is the proof, otherwise the doctor will say something like the stain is of long standing, like they do with bruises, if they think the bruise was in existence before the incident happened.

I agree that it seems like the coroner knew there was an issue over grapes, but he likely didn't ask any witness directly because the answer was irrelevant. We have to remember what the duties of the coroner were, and establishing the presence of grapes on or around her body has no bearing on the duty of the coroner's inquiry.

[The Rookie Detective]

So we choose to believe the grape theory and negate the views of both Philips and Blackwell.


IF Diemschultz said there were grapes and his fellow club member...then I'd suggest that Le Grand got to them too.

Now IF any of the POLICEMEN stated there were Grapes, THEN it helps to prove that the coroners were wrong.

And so I ask, were there ANY police officials at the scene who said they saw grapes?


IF there is, then the grapes theory holds credence and Packer's statement is warranted and the opinions of Philips and Blackwell can be called into question.

However, IF PC Smith or any of the other POLICE officials make no mention of grapes...then my hypothesis holds water and rather than being patronized, my views can be seen as valid.

I do recall that ONE witness stated that Stride held a PIECE OF PAPER tightly in her right hand...that again contradicts the grapes theory.


If Packer said that he sold grapes and 2 women later claimed to have found a grape stalk close to the murder site, and those 3 individuals ALL were spoken to by Le Grand, then I would also suggest that Diemschultz was also making false claims.

Let's not forget that Diemschultz was involved in violence the following year and so has the capacity for violence.


And what if Diemchultz didn't just miss Stride with his cart...and as he pulled into the gateway she was in the way. He told her to move and she didn't, so he got off his cart and then cut her throat...hiding his knife in his cart...

I mean technically... Diemschultz is the Stride equivalent of Lechmere.

Anyone from the club could have killed her and at least nobody would have expected Diemschultz as he was the man who found the body and it's only his word for it.


RD

[GBinOz]

Did the coroner ask if anyone saw grapes?

The grape fiasco not Packer's doing.
Diemshutz says he saw grapes in her hand, Kozebrodski says the same.
How big is this conspiracy you are selling?

Grape flesh is like 99% water, once you spit out the skin & pips, all that is left is the flesh, that is what you eat.
The autopsy was only conducted 38 hours after the murder, of course any grape flesh will be totally dissolved by stomach acids by the time the surgeon opens the stomach.

Hi Jon,

Dr Phillips recalled:
Neither on the hands nor about the body of the deceased did I find grapes, or connection with them. I am convinced that the deceased had not swallowed either the skin or seed of a grape within many hours of her death.

Dr Blackwell:
[Coroner] Did you perceive any grapes near the body in the yard? - No.
[Coroner] Did you hear any person say that they had seen grapes there? - I did not.

It appears that there was an awareness that grapes had been mentioned, and one wonders why that question was not put to Diemshitz, Smith, Johnson or Spooner.

I agree with you that Packer was much maligned. When initially he said he saw and heard nothing, he, as did many witnesses, left out the word "unusual". The man sold fruit and vegetables for a living, so selling a customer some grapes wasn't unusual until grapes became an issue. Packer correctly identified Stride's body after having been shown Eddowes body as a decoy. The worst that can be said about him was that he became confused about times.

Cheers, George

[Wickerman]

Packer's story was fabricated and his evidence is not reliable.

Yes, you've been sold a story by a conspiracy theorist, thats all.

The reasons being...

There were no grapes found in Stride's hand. This was corroborated by the coroner's report. The story of the grapes was fabricated.

Did the coroner ask if anyone saw grapes?

The grape fiasco not Packer's doing.
Diemshutz says he saw grapes in her hand, Kozebrodski says the same.
How big is this conspiracy you are selling?

Grape flesh is like 99% water, once you spit out the skin & pips, all that is left is the flesh, that is what you eat.
The autopsy was only conducted 38 hours after the murder, of course any grape flesh will be totally dissolved by stomach acids by the time the surgeon opens the stomach.

Le Grand interviewed Packer on several occasions, after which Packer changed his story from what he initially told the police. Le Grand was a convicted extortionist and blackmailer and his involvement in extracting information from so-called witnesses would have held an ulterior motive. Le Grand was a rogue and the moment he spoke, the moment Packer lost all credence as a witness.

So, as LeGrand was such a crook (at least we do agree on that), why do you believe anything he says?

There is no psychopath in history that would openly stand in the rain for over half an hour,..

Diemshutz tells us her clothes were wet with rain.
Whether it rained or not was of no consequence to these people, not like today's fastidious society.

The ripper wasn't the man seen standing in the company of Stride for longer than a few minutes. If anything, Packer may have seen Stride, but the man with her wasn't the ripper.

Any man seen with Stride by PC Smith would not then decide to go and cut her throat shortly after.

PC Smith would have needed to clear Berner St BEFORE the real killer arrived or was with Stride, ergo, any man seen with Stride PRIOR to PC Smith passing through Berner St was NOT the killer... and was certainly NOT JTR.

Just a tad emotional? once the constable has passed the scene - out of earshot, the killer is free to do as he pleases. The simple reason being anyone could have come upon the victim, in the absence of the PC, and killed her. This fact is proven by the expressed opinion of Donald Swanson who pointed that very fact out by saying, "..(a difference of) so many minutes, five at least, ten at the most, so that I respectfully submit it is not clearly proved that the man that Schwartz saw is the murderer...."

And so, which men are seen WITH Stride AFTER PC Smith passes through Berner Street?

Any man seen with her AFTER PC Smith has left; they are much more likely to be the killer.

I believe that there was a couple...and perhaps Stride WAS the woman seen talking to several different men, but for me I believe that IF she was accompanied by a man, this man wouldn't have been her killer UNLESS PC Smith had already passed around the corner.

Nichols and Chaoman the killer was like a ninja and left unseen and unheard...and IF Stride is to be considered as a Ripper victim, her killer WOULDN'T have been any of the men seen with her before PC Smith walked past. It's too open and exposed for the killer.

Of course, IF her killer WAS one of the men who was seen with her before or when PC Smith passed by, then Stride can be discarded as a ripper victim.

The ripper would NOT have changed his methodology so drastically.

I think the Cachous in her hand are a solid clue. Were they placed there by the killer deliberately?

I believe that Pipeman was Le Grand. He appeared AFTER PC Smith passed through. He had a cigarette and so may have carried some cachous as a ruse to lure Stride in. Stride was given the cachous to sweeten her breath AFTER having taken a puff of Pipeman's cigarette that he had just lit. She took a drag from the cigarette after BS man had thrown her to the floor. I believe that BS Man may have been Lave.

Lave went BACK into the club AFTER he had previously left to get some air. He had gone out through the front door with the main group who left prior, but he wanted to get back in and Stride was standing in his way. He assaulted her as he went to access the side door.

Le Grand (Pipeman) saw this as he had previously lured Stride to Berner Street. I also believe that Stride may have been dating someone from the club but was being paid by Le Grand as as informant.

She was set up and lured to her death, all part of some elaborate theatrical ploy to vindicate the double event that was fabricated by the WVC in order to justify large monetary rewards from the government. They tried countless times to use the murders as part of an extortion racket towards the people in power, and they thrived on the murders continuing.

Now I don;t believe that Le Grand was the ripper, but I do believe that HE murdered Stride.

the mistake he made, was not getting the cachous back off of her in time before the cart arrived. He had time to quickly stand, walk south PAST Packer's window and then quickly West around the corner of the Nelson Beer house which was closed at that time. It would take under 5 seconds to flee around the corner out of sight before the cart arrived.

Le Grand then deliberately focused on Packer.

WHY?

Because Packer is the ONLY witness who lived SOUTH of the murder site, between the gateway and the corner of the street.

He had to be sure...and I would go so far as to say that Packer was threatened to tell the story of the Grapes being purchased by a couple.


A perfect lie ALWAYS has elements of contextual truth and in this case, the case of the couple buying grapes is a perfect concoction because there WAS actually a couple who DID stand on the corner PRIOR to the murder; the Sweetheart couple.


That's the reason why there's confusion over who saw which couple. Stride MAY have been standing with someone...but because PC Smith had walked down the street shortly before her murder, that would deter the killer and should rule out any of the men seen standing with her when PC Smith walked past.


It;s all hypothesis of course, but IF we look at WHY Le Grand spoke to Packer repeatedly until he finally came up with the grapes story, then that points towards Le Grand having an ulterior motive...protecting his own skin.


Killers often involve themselves in murder cases. They sometimes appear to be the one person who has found that all important clue. The person stands in the crowd during press interviews on the street, The person who actively goes on searches for a missing person and secretly revels in the fact everyone is looking for one of their own victims.

I believe that Strides death was planned as some kind theatrical ploy to enhance the fear spread by the ripper and to give the government an ultimatum to pay a huge reward for the capture of the killer.

The WVC were essentially the cure to their own virus. And in times of crisis, everyone looks to the cure to save the people.

What better place to kill Stride...outside a Jewish socialist club.

There was more at play in this murder and we have to try and see through the smoke and mirrors in order to see the truth.


Lusk
Reeves
Le Grand
Bachert


All of these people were complicit in the perpetuation of the ripper murders.


Nichols and Chapman were the warm up act

Soon after the WVC were formed...and then...

Stride was murdered outside a Jewish Socialist Club full of foreigners
Eddowes was murdered in a square in which lived an active policeman and a retired policeman...and a location with a distinct religious connection
Kelly a Catholic was murdered in a flat owned by a powerful Irish Catholic mobster who controlled half of Dorset Street.

The Torso killer also dumped a headless body underneath New Scotland Yard.


The man who murdered these women was making a statement.

Anti Jewish
Anti Police
Anti Catholic

Interestingly, Barnardo was a staunch Protestant and part of the Orange Order in Dublin

And Lusk was first and foremost, a Freemason who had powerful connections.

I believe the letters, the killings could have all been part of one big statement to try and oust the Jews and Irish and create unrest in the community with the end game being to reform the slums..and the prostitutes were just used as lambs to the slaughter in order to try and bring about social reform.


OR...I may be wrong and the killer acted alone...just one man and his diary... haha


RD

Sounding like a movie script...

[The Rookie Detective]

PC Smith's words, I think, were "(Stride was standing).....a few yards up Berner St. opposite to the club", so over on the east side, where Packer said he saw her standing after they bought the grapes.




I see Eagle as a third wheel, Stride is already with someone, they came up Berner St. together and stopped at Packer's shop window.
I'm struggling to see how you replace that man who was with her at Packer's window, with Eagle.




On that basis we could accuse anyone of being her killer.
PC Smith was the last one to see her alive, he killed her.
Oh, wait, Diemshutz was the last one, he killed her, of course he wouldn't admit seeing her alive.

There needs to be constraints, otherwise we can point the finger at anyone.

Packer's story was fabricated and his evidence is not reliable.

The reasons being...

There were no grapes found in Stride's hand. This was corroborated by the coroner's report. The story of the grapes was fabricated.

Le Grand interviewed Packer on several occasions, after which Packer changed his story from what he initially told the police. Le Grand was a convicted extortionist and blackmailer and his involvement in extracting information from so-called witnesses would have held an ulterior motive. Le Grand was a rogue and the moment he spoke, the moment Packer lost all credence as a witness.

There is no psychopath in history that would openly stand in the rain for over half an hour, with their future victim, just yards away from the murder location. That is IF we consider Stride as a potential victim.
If Stride wasn't a ripper victim, then the assault by BS Man after she wouldn't share her grapes that he had just bought from Packer, all seen by Schwartz...then that might fit.

The ripper wasn't the man seen standing in the company of Stride for longer than a few minutes. If anything, Packer may have seen Stride, but the man with her wasn't the ripper.

Any man seen with Stride by PC Smith would not then decide to go and cut her throat shortly after.

PC Smith would have needed to clear Berner St BEFORE the real killer arrived or was with Stride, ergo, any man seen with Stride PRIOR to PC Smith passing through Berner St was NOT the killer... and was certainly NOT JTR.


And so, which men are seen WITH Stride AFTER PC Smith passes through Berner Street?

Any man seen with her AFTER PC Smith has left; they are much more likely to be the killer.

I believe that there was a couple...and perhaps Stride WAS the woman seen talking to several different men, but for me I believe that IF she was accompanied by a man, this man wouldn't have been her killer UNLESS PC Smith had already passed around the corner.

Nichols and Chaoman the killer was like a ninja and left unseen and unheard...and IF Stride is to be considered as a Ripper victim, her killer WOULDN'T have been any of the men seen with her before PC Smith walked past. It's too open and exposed for the killer.

Of course, IF her killer WAS one of the men who was seen with her before or when PC Smith passed by, then Stride can be discarded as a ripper victim.

The ripper would NOT have changed his methodology so drastically.

I think the Cachous in her hand are a solid clue. Were they placed there by the killer deliberately?

I believe that Pipeman was Le Grand. He appeared AFTER PC Smith passed through. He had a cigarette and so may have carried some cachous as a ruse to lure Stride in. Stride was given the cachous to sweeten her breath AFTER having taken a puff of Pipeman's cigarette that he had just lit. She took a drag from the cigarette after BS man had thrown her to the floor. I believe that BS Man may have been Lave.

Lave went BACK into the club AFTER he had previously left to get some air. He had gone out through the front door with the main group who left prior, but he wanted to get back in and Stride was standing in his way. He assaulted her as he went to access the side door.

Le Grand (Pipeman) saw this as he had previously lured Stride to Berner Street. I also believe that Stride may have been dating someone from the club but was being paid by Le Grand as as informant.

She was set up and lured to her death, all part of some elaborate theatrical ploy to vindicate the double event that was fabricated by the WVC in order to justify large monetary rewards from the government. They tried countless times to use the murders as part of an extortion racket towards the people in power, and they thrived on the murders continuing.

Now I don;t believe that Le Grand was the ripper, but I do believe that HE murdered Stride.

the mistake he made, was not getting the cachous back off of her in time before the cart arrived. He had time to quickly stand, walk south PAST Packer's window and then quickly West around the corner of the Nelson Beer house which was closed at that time. It would take under 5 seconds to flee around the corner out of sight before the cart arrived.

Le Grand then deliberately focused on Packer.

WHY?

Because Packer is the ONLY witness who lived SOUTH of the murder site, between the gateway and the corner of the street.

He had to be sure...and I would go so far as to say that Packer was threatened to tell the story of the Grapes being purchased by a couple.


A perfect lie ALWAYS has elements of contextual truth and in this case, the case of the couple buying grapes is a perfect concoction because there WAS actually a couple who DID stand on the corner PRIOR to the murder; the Sweetheart couple.


That's the reason why there's confusion over who saw which couple. Stride MAY have been standing with someone...but because PC Smith had walked down the street shortly before her murder, that would deter the killer and should rule out any of the men seen standing with her when PC Smith walked past.


It;s all hypothesis of course, but IF we look at WHY Le Grand spoke to Packer repeatedly until he finally came up with the grapes story, then that points towards Le Grand having an ulterior motive...protecting his own skin.


Killers often involve themselves in murder cases. They sometimes appear to be the one person who has found that all important clue. The person stands in the crowd during press interviews on the street, The person who actively goes on searches for a missing person and secretly revels in the fact everyone is looking for one of their own victims.

I believe that Strides death was planned as some kind theatrical ploy to enhance the fear spread by the ripper and to give the government an ultimatum to pay a huge reward for the capture of the killer.

The WVC were essentially the cure to their own virus. And in times of crisis, everyone looks to the cure to save the people.

What better place to kill Stride...outside a Jewish socialist club.

There was more at play in this murder and we have to try and see through the smoke and mirrors in order to see the truth.


Lusk
Reeves
Le Grand
Bachert


All of these people were complicit in the perpetuation of the ripper murders.


Nichols and Chapman were the warm up act

Soon after the WVC were formed...and then...

Stride was murdered outside a Jewish Socialist Club full of foreigners
Eddowes was murdered in a square in which lived an active policeman and a retired policeman...and a location with a distinct religious connection
Kelly a Catholic was murdered in a flat owned by a powerful Irish Catholic mobster who controlled half of Dorset Street.

The Torso killer also dumped a headless body underneath New Scotland Yard.


The man who murdered these women was making a statement.

Anti Jewish
Anti Police
Anti Catholic

Interestingly, Barnardo was a staunch Protestant and part of the Orange Order in Dublin

And Lusk was first and foremost, a Freemason who had powerful connections.

I believe the letters, the killings could have all been part of one big statement to try and oust the Jews and Irish and create unrest in the community with the end game being to reform the slums..and the prostitutes were just used as lambs to the slaughter in order to try and bring about social reform.


OR...I may be wrong and the killer acted alone...just one man and his diary... haha


RD

[Wickerman]

Because it would implicate him in her murder

We know beyond any reasonable doubt that Stride was there AFTER 12.30am based on witness reports.
The main stumbling block being that we need to differentiate between the sweetheart couple and Stride seen with another man.

The most reliable witness in terms of identifying Stride would have been from PC Smith and that puts Stride close to the place she was murdered at around 12.35am.

We also know that Eagle returned to the club AFTER 12.30am because he tried the club door NORTH of the murder site, having come from SOUTH from the direction of Fairclough At. That strongly suggests that he had to walk PAST the gateway to try the club door facing Berner and then go back to the gateway to access the side door.

Now unless Stride was standing on the corner outside the board school, then Eagle must have seen Stride.

PC Smith's words, I think, were "(Stride was standing).....a few yards up Berner St. opposite to the club", so over on the east side, where Packer said he saw her standing after they bought the grapes.

The timing of PC Smith seeing a woman he later identified as Stride seen talking with parcelman at virtually the same time as Eagle re-enters Berner Street, Is I believe a strong indication that Eagle had indeed spoken to Stride on his way back.

I see Eagle as a third wheel, Stride is already with someone, they came up Berner St. together and stopped at Packer's shop window.
I'm struggling to see how you replace that man who was with her at Packer's window, with Eagle.

Because what man would admit talking to a woman who then gets murdered, added to the fact that he had just dropped his girlfriend home.
I'm not sure any woman would appreciate their potential future husband admitting to having spoken to a prostitute who then gets murdered.

On that basis we could accuse anyone of being her killer.
PC Smith was the last one to see her alive, he killed her.
Oh, wait, Diemshutz was the last one, he killed her, of course he wouldn't admit seeing her alive.

There needs to be constraints, otherwise we can point the finger at anyone.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

No, but I believe that Eagle was Parcelman on his return to the club at 12.35am.


PC Smith saw Stride talking with Eagle


But i don't believe that Eagle was the killer


I believe that Pipeman was.


RD

Other than Wick's reason is #1074, there are a few other things to consider about Eagle being Parcelman.

Why was he returning to the club, after seeing his lady friend home? The Irish Times says:

Morris Eagle, one of the members of the club, left Berner street about 12 o'clock, and after taking his sweetheart home returned to the club at about twenty minutes to one with the intention of having supper.

Why would Eagle return to the club for a feed, carrying a parcel? If it was to contain his wares for sale, he'd sort of missed his chance as most of the people from that night's event had left.

Why would he be talking to Stride outside the club? He already has a lady friend. He wouldn't want Lave to see him talking to another woman, would he?

As for Pipeman being the killer, is that Pipeman who is also JtR? Because I just can't see Jack deciding on target, and then immediately lighting his pipe. Sharpen his knife, maybe, but a man lighting up is not about to move in for the kill.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Hi Andrew,

Yes, in a sense it would be logical, because he probably knew there was a fixed-point P.C. there. On the other hand, if he knew it was a copper on fixed-duty, he would also have known this copper, as a rule, couldn't move from his post.

Fair enough

BUT, there's also to take into consideration that Kozebrodski had to catch up with Eagle and from the evidence it seems that he and Eagle were already together when they came running towards Lamb. The evidence from both Kozebrodski and Lamb certainly doesn't give the impression that Eagle and Kozebrodski only joined together at the corner of Batty Street. But that's just how I see it and, therefore, I think there's a good possibility that Eagle first turned left, perhaps until he reached Backchurch Lane and then turned back, passing Berner Street. The other possibility is that Kozebrodski returned to Berner Street shortly after Eagle had left and was able to catch up with him before they reached the top of Berner Street.

I see it the way you do, although I also think one or two over-stressed minds might have led to faulty memories. Perhaps that is why the search for police is hard to piece together.

It could well have been Eagle. If so, this would either mean that Eagle only ran out very shortly before Diemschutz arrived back in the yard with Spooner or that Mortimer didn't go out as 'hurriedly/immediately' as she said but instead some time - half a minute, a minute? - elapsed between hearing Eagle and actually going out. But, yes, it may also have been another club member who decided to rouse a few of the neighbours. And come to think of it, it might also have been Kozebrodski, having just returned from Fairclough Street and about to chase after Eagle, who is then somewhere ahead of him, on his way to Commercial Road.

FM: I had just gone indoors, and was preparing to go to bed when I heard a commotion outside and immediately ran out ...

She might have needed a minute or so to 'unprepare' for bed, if you know what I mean.

Unfortunately, there are no hard and fast answers, which leaves room for a lot of possibilities. A lot of things are a matter of fitting & measuring, following one's own logic and how one reads things.

Cheers,
Frank

Agreed.

For me, the most important thing about the police search is how it contributes to the overall time taken from discovery to first police arrival. I think if that timespan is so long that timelines imply Smith was out in his timing by 5 minutes or more, we should be moving Diemschitz back in time from 1am, and then deal with the consequences.

[The Rookie Detective]

Did I miss your reason for Eagle making no mention of speaking with Stride?

Because it would implicate him in her murder

We know beyond any reasonable doubt that Stride was there AFTER 12.30am based on witness reports.
The main stumbling block being that we need to differentiate between the sweetheart couple and Stride seen with another man.

The most reliable witness in terms of identifying Stride would have been from PC Smith and that puts Stride close to the place she was murdered at around 12.35am.

We also know that Eagle returned to the club AFTER 12.30am because he tried the club door NORTH of the murder site, having come from SOUTH from the direction of Fairclough At. That strongly suggests that he had to walk PAST the gateway to try the club door facing Berner and then go back to the gateway to access the side door.

Now unless Stride was standing on the corner outside the board school, then Eagle must have seen Stride.

He admits to not being sure if she was lying on the floor in the dark as he walked through the gateway to the side club door, but seems to imply that he didn't believe Stride was there.

Well if she wasn't on the floor already dead in the dark, she must have been alive and well when Eagle re-entered Berner Street.

The timing of PC Smith seeing a woman he later identified as Stride seen talking with parcelman at virtually the same time as Eagle re-enters Berner Street, Is I believe a strong indication that Eagle had indeed spoken to Stride on his way back.


But did he kill her?

Very unlikely because PC Smith had just walked past.

So WHY didn't he tell anyone he had spoken to Stride?


Because what man would admit talking to a woman who then gets murdered, added to the fact that he had just dropped his girlfriend home.
I'm not sure any woman would appreciate their potential future husband admitting to having spoken to a prostitute who then gets murdered.


I think Eagle was parcelman.

Eagle was 24
Parcelman looked 28

The sighting by PC Smith at the time which corresponds to Eagle reappearing is close enough to give a high probability that they were the same man.

I may be wrong


RD

[Wickerman]

So...

Interestingly, Morris Eagle claims to have returned back to the club at the same time that PC Smith walks his beat.

Eagle doesn't see PC Smith, Stride OR a couple talking
PC Smith sees Stride talking with a man...

Could Eagle have been Parcel Man?
RD

Both Eagle (Parcel-man?) and PC Smith were witnesses.
They would be in the same waiting room for the inquest.
PC Smith saw Parcel-man face to face, although he says he doesn't remember specific facial details, he could easily have recognised him when faced with him again.
That makes your theory hard to accept in my view.

[Wickerman]

No, but I believe that Eagle was Parcelman on his return to the club at 12.35am.


PC Smith saw Stride talking with Eagle


But i don't believe that Eagle was the killer


I believe that Pipeman was.


RD

Did I miss your reason for Eagle making no mention of speaking with Stride?

[The Rookie Detective]

[.......]

Are you saying Eagle killed Stride?

No, but I believe that Eagle was Parcelman on his return to the club at 12.35am.


PC Smith saw Stride talking with Eagle


But i don't believe that Eagle was the killer


I believe that Pipeman was.


RD

[Wickerman]

So...

...We then have Packer who only tells his story after Charles Le Grand interviews him on multiple occasions. He initially said he heard or saw nothing, but then becomes a key witness to a couple to whom he sold grapes.

[.......]

.which were alleged to have been found in the right hand of the victims, despite the coroners being adamant that only the Cahous were found in the left hand and nothing had been in her right hand.

Hi RD.

To be fair to Packer, I think the sentence above needs a break midway.
It wasn't Packer who said Stride held grapes, that was Diemshutz & Kozebrodski who claimed they saw grapes in Stride's right hand to a journalist, not in court.
Packer only sold them to a couple who came up from Back Church Lane, and not who stood opposite as claimed in the quote below.

The couple he claims to have been standing across from him were there for "over half an hour."...in the rain.
This couple are standing in the same place (corner of the street outside the board school, almost opposite Packer's window at 44 Berner Street) as the couple seen by James Brown on his way to the chandler's shop around 12.45am, approximately the same time that Schwartz claimed to have witnessed an assault on Stride.

However, this "sweetheart" couple subsequently appears to have not been there at the time of the murder; the woman came forward to say they were there earlier, meaning that the couple James Brown saw were more likely to be Stride and her killer.
Unless Brown was there before 12.20am, he must have seen Stride and not the sweetheart couple.

Mortimer describes the body she saw in the yard, as she says "judging by her clothes", but in the next sentence says she saw "a young man and his sweetheart standing at the corner of the street...".
Wouldn't we expect Mortimer to make the connection, by saying "I previously saw her standing at the corner of the street..." if it was the same woman?

You suggest Mortimer saw the woman standing at the corner barely a few minutes later she is dead in the yard, yet Mortimer does not make the connection?
I can't see that myself, the two women she saw had to be different women, otherwise Mortimer, taking notice of her clothes, would have pointed that out.

IF the couple Brown saw were the Sweetheart couple, then they must have been there around the time of the assault on Stride and witnessed it.

There is an edited interview with the girl of the sweetheart couple.
"When the alarm of murder was raised a young girl had been standing in a bisecting thoroughfare not fifty yards from the spot where the body was found. She had, she said, been standing there for about twenty-minutes, talking with her sweetheart, but neither of them heard any unusual noises".

The article suggests the sweetheart couple were stood at the corner for 20 minutes before the body was found, which must have been throughout the whole Schwartz incident, therefore cannot be Stride & Parcel-man.
Also, in his statement Packer did say the couple who bought grapes came up the street, not from across the street. He says they came up from the Back Church Lane end, which means from the south end of Berner St.

We have so many different witnesses...and IF we take out Schwartz's dramatic story, then apart from 2 different couples seen talking on the corner of the street or by the club, and the transit of Goldstein, there doesn't seem to have been much in the way of things going on in Berner Street.

Interestingly, Morris Eagle claims to have returned back to the club at the same time that PC Smith walks his beat.

Eagle doesn't see PC Smith, Stride OR a couple talking

Eagle actually says he did see people in Berner St. ("I dare say I did"), it's just that he doesn't remember who he saw.

PC Smith sees Stride talking with a man...

Could Eagle have been Parcel Man?

BOTH Eagle and Diemschultz sold jewelry and so was parcelman holding a box of jewelry that he took into the club with him?

Did Eagle engage in conversation with Stride on his return to the club?
But what Morris Eagle returns to the club around 12.35am with a parcel containing some jewelry with the intent of taking it into the club. As he enters Berner Street he sees Stride.

Stride was with two different men in the space of a few minutes, and both carried a parcel?

She is waiting for someone.

But she was already with someone.
(I mean, you have not suggested Eagle walked up from Back Church Lane area with Stride, so she was already with someone)

Parcelman is Eagle?

Are you saying Eagle killed Stride?

[FrankO]

Hi Frank.

Would it be 'logical' to suppose that Eagle immediately turned right, and ran toward the fixed-point location, given his nearby address?

Hi Andrew,

Yes, in a sense it would be logical, because he probably knew there was a fixed-point P.C. there. On the other hand, if he knew it was a copper on fixed-duty, he would also have known this copper, as a rule, couldn't move from his post.

BUT, there's also to take into consideration that Kozebrodski had to catch up with Eagle and from the evidence it seems that he and Eagle were already together when they came running towards Lamb. The evidence from both Kozebrodski and Lamb certainly doesn't give the impression that Eagle and Kozebrodski only joined together at the corner of Batty Street. But that's just how I see it and, therefore, I think there's a good possibility that Eagle first turned left, perhaps until he reached Backchurch Lane and then turned back, passing Berner Street. The other possibility is that Kozebrodski returned to Berner Street shortly after Eagle had left and was able to catch up with him before they reached the top of Berner Street.

From Interview with a Neighbour:

"I was just about going to bed, sir, when I heard a call for the police. I ran to the door, and before I could open it I heard somebody say, 'Come out quick; there's a poor woman here that's had ten inches of cold steel in her.' I hurried out, and saw some two or three people standing in the gateway. Lewis, the man who looks after the Socialist Club at No. 40, was there, and his wife.

So Diemschitz and Spooner are back in the yard when Mortimer arrives. Who do you suppose might have been the man she heard, outside her door? Could it be Eagle heading toward Commercial Road, or just someone from club who decided to rouse a few of the neighbours? Perhaps it was the mysterious Jacobs?

It could well have been Eagle. If so, this would either mean that Eagle only ran out very shortly before Diemschutz arrived back in the yard with Spooner or that Mortimer didn't go out as 'hurriedly/immediately' as she said but instead some time - half a minute, a minute? - elapsed between hearing Eagle and actually going out. But, yes, it may also have been another club member who decided to rouse a few of the neighbours. And come to think of it, it might also have been Kozebrodski, having just returned from Fairclough Street and about to chase after Eagle, who is then somewhere ahead of him, on his way to Commercial Road.

Unfortunately, there are no hard and fast answers, which leaves room for a lot of possibilities. A lot of things are a matter of fitting & measuring, following one's own logic and how one reads things.

Cheers,
Frank

[NotBlamedForNothing]

So...

We have Pipeman...identified by Schwartz as being across the road from the location of the murder... but the Nelson Beerhouse was on the same side of the road as the club...Pipeman never came forward as a witness.

The press report doesn't explicitly mention the Nelson. If the Nelson was being referred to implicitly, the Star man may have made a mistake. Either that or the common assumption that "the public-house a few doors off" refers to the Nelson, is incorrect.

We have BSman... identified by Schwartz as the man who shouted "LIPSKI!" after he assaulted Stride; a woman who was then murdered no more than 15 minutes after the initial assault... but BSman never came forward to clear his name...and an assault which nobody else claims to have witnessed.

Imagine Schwartz watching this assault (or whatever it was) from close range, or even from across that narrow street. What does the perpetrator gain by calling 'Lipski' to another man on the street? Nothing? However, what if his mugging buddy had wanted to alert him to the presence of the Jewish witness? Was the second man ...

Star: ... shouting out some sort of warning to the man who was with the woman ...

... which included the use of the word 'Lipski'? That make more sense to me.

We have Schwartz who himself came forward to give his account of what happened, but he spoke no English and so his story was translated by another.

We have Leon Goldstein who came forward to the police after he was advised to by the club, in order to clear his name. He also went with a translator, who happened to be the club secretary.

Goldstein went with Wess, but we don't know for a fact that he required a translator. I would suggest that the Star quote above suggests someone who is the process of learning English, and not a complete beginner. Yes, that is in regard to Schwartz, but in my mind, I keep confusing the two men.

Schwartz and Goldstein's journey is similar, but one with the Stride assault and the other without.

Goldstein "... looked up at the club, and then went around the corner by the Board School", whereas press report Schwartz "... heard the sound of a quarrel, and turned back to learn what was the matter, but just as he stepped from the kerb ..."

What do you suppose Goldstein was looking at?

We have Mrs Mortimer who sees a man, who is later revealed as Goldstein, so we can at least be sure that Goldstein is there at the scene very close to the time of the murder.

Very close?

It was soon after one o'clock when I went out, and the only man whom I had seen pass through the street previously was a young man carrying a black shiny bag, who walked very fast down the street from the Commercial-road.

Remove 'previously' from that sentence, and the meaning doesn't change. Or does it?

He has a bag full of empty cigarette boxes, suggesting he had been selling them prior. There are cigarette makers living in the same yard where Stride is later found murdered.
Was Goldstein about to walk into the yard to go to one of the Cigarette makers who was living in one of the houses on the left of the yard, when he saw that there was a woman on the floor/ a couple standing in the gateway, and he changed his mind and so walked passed the yard and went around the corner past the board school.

Had Stride been on the ground, at most the soles of her boots would have been barely visible from the street.

Was Goldstein told to go to the police by Wess, because the killer was a member of the club and they had to incorporate damage limitation?

Wess dragged Goldstein by the ear, after the public learned of doubts about the Hungarian's story. Why after?

IF the couple Brown saw were the Sweetheart couple, then they must have been there around the time of the assault on Stride and witnessed it.

The sweethearts did not lie about anything. There is enough evidence to know that the street was quiet in the half hour leading up to the discovery. The assault story only makes sense if it occurred when the club event was in full swing. Only then was there enough noise to allow the incident to go mostly unnoticed.

We also have Charles Letchford/Letchworth/LechMERE (can you imagine)... who passed down Berner Street at 12.30am and who lived either at 30 Berner Street. He also claimed his sister stood at the door at 12.50am and neither of them saw or heard anything.

We must not forget that Charles's sister was ANOTHER witness and stood at her door at 12.50am...why is she never mentioned?

Charles Letchford

BOTH Eagle and Diemschultz sold jewelry and so was parcelman holding a box of jewelry that he took into the club with him?

I wouldn't limit the contents to jewellery. Could have been any wares, such as cachous.