The Stride Murder

[Trevor Marriott]

Or the footsteps were not those of Smith.
Or she simply had her timinging a few minutes out.
Or Schwartz had his timing out.

The possibilities are many.

Steve

Didnt policemen wear some form of rubber attachment to their boots so as not to attract attention late at night walking the streets

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Wickerman]

Didnt policemen wear some form of rubber attachment to their boots so as not to attract attention late at night walking the streets

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

I believe it was pieces of bicycle tire nailed to the sole.

[Wickerman]

Yes good info, I mentioned the 72 licencing act above, but we have reports of pubs being open later, law is one thing, enforcement is an entirely different matter Wicky.
The "lock in" was probably as common then as it was in later years before extended opening hours in the mid 2000s.

We cannot assume an official closing time of midnight, which I mentioned myself, means people could not have left a pub at a later time.

Also closing and chucking out were completely different matters.
Finally Schwartz doesn't say he left the pub, only that he left the doorway.



Steve

Indeed, and we can't be sure if clubs & beer houses were held to the same rule.
There is a difference, and I don't know the specifics - never looked into it.
The beer house on the corner of Berner St. was not a public house if I recall correctly. The gov.t tried to encourage the manufacture & sale of beer to compete with liquor - both are sold in a public house. A beer house only sells beer, and I don't know if it is consumed on the premises or just bought in bottles to take away.

Ok, I just looked at the rule again. The section covers Licensing, and it says clubs are not subject to Licensing Act rules.
It begins:
"Every person selling or exposing for sale by retail any intoxicating liquors must be duly licensed, but clubs do not require to take out a license for such sale to members only, for consumption on the premises."
So that will include Beer Houses.

Pubs did open at different times outside the 4 mile radius, the code gives times for those.

[Wickerman]

.... If Stride hadn’t been killed and we had just witnessed what Schwartz said that he saw then I feel that most of us would be saying that it appeared to be some kind of ‘domestic.’ Like some drunken, bullying husband trying to drag his reluctant wife/partner home. The fact that she didn’t scream out very loudly (in the midst of a series of murders) might suggest an element of familiarity or the inevitability of a beating to come?

If it was the ripper then could it have been that he wanted her to go with him to somewhere more private than Dutfield’s Yard but she resisted and he panicked and just killed her to silence her? Complete speculation of course.

What I think is missing is no-one seems to query why Stride would be standing in a gateway by herself.

As she apparently made some attempt to dress up for the evening, she isn't going to stand in some gateway down a backstreet.
We also learn she was with a man about 11:00 pm at the Bricklayers Arms, so why is she in this gateway alone 90 minutes later?
Maybe she wasn't alone.

We read PC Smith saw her opposite the club about 12:30 am with a man carrying a small parcel, which links up with what Packer said about seeing Stride with a man who bought some grapes, naturally he would carry them in some sort of package, and them standing opposite the club.

My own belief is that BS-man, when he staggered past the club gateway saw Stride with a man in the shadows. He could see what she was up to and likely reprimanded her - "we don't want your sort around here", and grabbed at her to make her leave, a scuffle ensued. This is when Schwartz walked passed who's focus was on the scuffle, he didn't notice a second man in the shadows.
The reason Stride yelped, but not loudly, was to her companion who didn't step forward to help her.

I don't accept Stride was by herself in that gateway, it's just that none of the witnesses saw this other man, and he was the one described by PC Smith & Packer. It was the man, her companion who sliced her throat, it was his intention all along.
Was he the Ripper?
Some days I think so, other days not so sure.

[Fiver]

Your argument suggests many witnesses are all wrong by 15-35 minutes.

Your argument suggests most of the the witnesses are wrong by 15 to 35 minutes and that they are deliberately lying.

There are three different rough times for the body being found.

Around 1PM - Diemshutz, Eagle, West, Mortimer, Lamb, Johnston

Around 12:45 - Kozebrodsky and Hershberg.

Around 12:30 - Spooner.

I have used historically accurate, quoted statements and suggested a storyline from those that can explain why so many people said Louis was already there at 12:40ish.

You have ignored the actual statements of Mortimer, Lamb, and Johnston.

Your suggested storyline still makes no sense.
* A body near the Club is location problem. Lying about the time cannot solve that.
* Lying about the time is worse than useless. It risks being arrested for perjury and obstruction of justice.
* The idea that 20 to 25 Club members could come to any decision in 15 minutes, let alone one to all break the law, seems wildly unlikely.
* Kozebrodsky was the first person that Diemschutz brought to see the body and he apparently didn't get his Conspiracy memo, since he disagreed on the time.
* Mortimer's account supports Diemshutz, even though she wasn't part of the Club.
* There is no evidence that Israel Schwartz was part of the Club.
* Your only apparent motive for Schwartz lying is that he was Jewish. This completely fails as a motive.
* Schwartz' account does not support or contradict Diemschutz' stated arrival time.

You also appear to miss that Israel Schwartz' account, if true, is one of the strongest pieces of evidence that Stride was not a Ripper victim. Broadshouldered Man's actions are completely different from the theorized MO for the Ripper.

[Fiver]

The quote I posted from reputable sources says that Pipeman came from the club,..

The quote you posted comes from Wikipedia. Wikipedia says that Wikipedia is not a reliable source.

[Fiver]

Unfortunately even reputable authors make mistakes.
As I have mentioned above, the quote you provided does not appear to be in the Kindle version.
One can only assume it was removed, because it directly contradicts the other statements in the book, and it contradicts both known accounts Schwartz gave.

Steve

A simpler solution is that whoever wrote that part of the Wikipedia article got it wrong.

[Fiver]

Finally Schwartz doesn't say he left the pub, only that he left the doorway.

Steve

This is an important point. There is a lot of mention of where or not it was raining at the Inquest, giving the impression that there was intermittent rain that night. We also don't know how windy it was - stepping into the doorway might have made it easier to light a pipe.

[Fiver]

Yet to the best of my knowledge there doesnt exist any other version of that same event by another witness .

Some of the newspapers said that around 12:45am, close to the area, one man pursued another man who he thought was the Ripper. Possibly that's a garbled account of Pipeman chasing Schwartz. Perhaps Pipeman took the cry of "Lipski" as an accusation of Schwartz being the Ripper, not as an antisemitic slur.

[GBinOz]

BS man walks ahead of Schwartz down Berner Street.
The attack occurrs.

Hi Steve,

A question that dwells in my mind is "was Stride actually subjected to an attack"? I find my self in agreement with Herlock ( ) when he raises this question:

If Stride hadn’t been killed and we had just witnessed what Schwartz said that he saw then I feel that most of us would be saying that it appeared to be some kind of ‘domestic.’ Like some drunken, bullying husband trying to drag his reluctant wife/partner home. The fact that she didn’t scream out very loudly (in the midst of a series of murders) might suggest an element of familiarity or the inevitability of a beating to come?

My take on what went down is as follows:

BSMan walks ahead of Schwartz down Berner Street. He notices him stop to talk to a women standing in the gateway. The conversation appears to become heated, with BSMan trying to pull he out of the yard, so Schwartz crosses to the east side of the street to avoid involvement in a domestic. He is proceeding south on Berner St when he hears the not-loud screams from Stride, and turns his head, while still walking, to see what is transpiring. He see Stride on the ground and assumes that BSMan has thrown her down, but it is possible that he just let go of her arm and she overbalanced. BSMan looks around to see if there were any witnesses, and shouts at Schwartz. By now Schwartz has reached Fairclough St and "just as he stepped from the kerb a second man came out of the doorway of the public house a few doors off". This has to be the kerb on Fairclough St, and the man is emerging from the doorway of The Nelson, which is on the western corner of Berner St, a few doors south of the gateway. Schwartz takes fright and scurries off in a southerly direction towards the Arches.

From Pipeman's perspective, he has taken refuge in the doorway of the The Nelson to light his pipe. As a pipe smoker I can comment that this would be standard practice. He hears Stride's not so loud screams and emerges from the doorway to see a woman on the ground with a man (BSMan) standing near her shouting at another man (Schwartz) who is appearing to flee the scene. He briefly follows Schwartz, but then turns back to investigate what is happening in the gateway.

What happened after that is conjecture and for another post.

Cheers, George

[GBinOz]

What I think is missing is no-one seems to query why Stride would be standing in a gateway by herself.

As she apparently made some attempt to dress up for the evening, she isn't going to stand in some gateway down a backstreet.
We also learn she was with a man about 11:00 pm at the Bricklayers Arms, so why is she in this gateway alone 90 minutes later?
Maybe she wasn't alone.

We read PC Smith saw her opposite the club about 12:30 am with a man carrying a small parcel, which links up with what Packer said about seeing Stride with a man who bought some grapes, naturally he would carry them in some sort of package, and them standing opposite the club.

My own belief is that BS-man, when he staggered past the club gateway saw Stride with a man in the shadows. He could see what she was up to and likely reprimanded her - "we don't want your sort around here", and grabbed at her to make her leave, a scuffle ensued. This is when Schwartz walked passed who's focus was on the scuffle, he didn't notice a second man in the shadows.
The reason Stride yelped, but not loudly, was to her companion who didn't step forward to help her.

I don't accept Stride was by herself in that gateway, it's just that none of the witnesses saw this other man, and he was the one described by PC Smith & Packer. It was the man, her companion who sliced her throat, it was his intention all along.
Was he the Ripper?
Some days I think so, other days not so sure.

Hi Jon,

Put me down as another that queries why Stride was standing in the gateway by herself.

I am in total agreement with your propositions, with an alternative thrown in that Parcelman may have been returning from the Loo rather than standing in the shadows. Either way, BSMan may have been triggered by the sight of Stride's companion, and grabbed her by her neck-piece as she tried to go to Parcelman, cut her throat and made his escape with Parcelman in pursuit, as reported in The Star. If, as has been suggested, Parcelman was a married man, it is easy to contemplate they he refrained from coming forward after the fact. Even more so if he was the Ripper.

Was he the Ripper?
I am also on the fence as to Stride as a victim, but perhaps just slightly leaning towards No.

Best regards, George

[New Waterloo]

Hello GBinOz, I think your description is excellent and seems to give a clarity to the events. It seems to me that this incident outside the gate is so important to the investigation. The timeline is so tight and disputed that perhaps we should just put that aside for a second. We seem to have 3 individuals who are serious contenders for being shall we say, the murderer of Stride. There could be a man in the shadows as was suggested earlier (already in the yard) there is some disagreement which causes a bit of a disturbance with Stride ending up on the floor. BSM gets involved and then Pipeman gets involved. Schwarz sees this but doesn't really know what's going on (why should he) so he decides to make his exit. Now this is the important bit. After Schwarz goes what do BSM and Pipeman then do. BSM chose to get involved regardless as to whether he is the murderer, Pipeman is now involved. To me it is unthinkable that they would just walk away. They would talk with Stride to see if she was OK and then when satisfied leave. At least one of them has to leave otherwise the murderer has no chance of carrying out his deed without detection. This leaves shadow man if he exists still in the yard. Now back to the tight time frame. Only my opinion from reading all the excellent previous comments, surely one of these three people are the murderer. (JTR?) It seems just to illogical that another person (JTR) stumbles across this incident, that all parties have dispersed, and are out of sight Schwarz,BSM, Pipeman and possibly shadow man. Then he decides to go into the yard of a busy club and quickly murder Stride. Too risky. To be honest, a person already in the yard seems possible to me. Anyway I think it is one of these people. Not someone else turning up there is just not enough time.

[GBinOz]

Hello GBinOz, I think your description is excellent and seems to give a clarity to the events. It seems to me that this incident outside the gate is so important to the investigation. The timeline is so tight and disputed that perhaps we should just put that aside for a second. We seem to have 3 individuals who are serious contenders for being shall we say, the murderer of Stride. There could be a man in the shadows as was suggested earlier (already in the yard) there is some disagreement which causes a bit of a disturbance with Stride ending up on the floor. BSM gets involved and then Pipeman gets involved. Schwarz sees this but doesn't really know what's going on (why should he) so he decides to make his exit. Now this is the important bit. After Schwarz goes what do BSM and Pipeman then do. BSM chose to get involved regardless as to whether he is the murderer, Pipeman is now involved. To me it is unthinkable that they would just walk away. They would talk with Stride to see if she was OK and then when satisfied leave. At least one of them has to leave otherwise the murderer has no chance of carrying out his deed without detection. This leaves shadow man if he exists still in the yard. Now back to the tight time frame. Only my opinion from reading all the excellent previous comments, surely one of these three people are the murderer. (JTR?) It seems just to illogical that another person (JTR) stumbles across this incident, that all parties have dispersed, and are out of sight Schwarz,BSM, Pipeman and possibly shadow man. Then he decides to go into the yard of a busy club and quickly murder Stride. Too risky. To be honest, a person already in the yard seems possible to me. Anyway I think it is one of these people. Not someone else turning up there is just not enough time.

Hi New Waterloo,

Thank you for your kind remark, and welcome to the forum.

A great deal depends on whether the inconsistencies in Schwartz's story are to be overlooked and his scenario accepted. There is a whole thread devoted to this subject here:

https://forum.casebook.org/forum/ripper-discussions/witnesses/751019-if-schwartz-lied

When Schwartz decided to scuttle away he was under the impression that Pipeman was pursuing him, but later looked behind and found he wasn't. After this point, it is all conjecture. We don't know if Pipeman returned to the yard, and we don't know where Parcelman went after he was seen with Stride by PC Smith. If we accept Schwartz's account, we can only be sure that BSMan was with Stride after Schwartz's departure. I personally don't believe that Parcelman was exhibiting the behaviour that we normally attribute to JtR, but there is some question as to whether this was even a JtR murder. Pipeman may have returned to warn BSMan off and played the role of rescuer to Stride, offering to escort her to the safety of the clubhouse and then killing her when she turned her back, which would make him likely to be JtR, but this is just speculation. Parcelman may have been in the shadows, or returning from the Loo but, once again, this is all conjecture. The only thing of which we can be reasonably certain is that she was alive when Smith saw her at around 12:35 (police time) and dead around 1:00 when Lamb arrived (also police time). We know that there was a clock in the club but we don't know what time that was exhibiting compared to police time, the latter being considered to be the closest to GMT. Blackwell time is also thrown into the mixture, and we don't know how his, or his assistant's, timepieces correlate to GMT, and then there is Mortimer time, which is likely to be the least accurate except for those who were estimating times, such as Eagle.

It all amounts to a jigsaw puzzle with half the pieces missing. JMO.

Cheers, George

[Herlock Sholmes]

What I think is missing is no-one seems to query why Stride would be standing in a gateway by herself.

As she apparently made some attempt to dress up for the evening, she isn't going to stand in some gateway down a backstreet.
We also learn she was with a man about 11:00 pm at the Bricklayers Arms, so why is she in this gateway alone 90 minutes later?
Maybe she wasn't alone.

We read PC Smith saw her opposite the club about 12:30 am with a man carrying a small parcel, which links up with what Packer said about seeing Stride with a man who bought some grapes, naturally he would carry them in some sort of package, and them standing opposite the club.

My own belief is that BS-man, when he staggered past the club gateway saw Stride with a man in the shadows. He could see what she was up to and likely reprimanded her - "we don't want your sort around here", and grabbed at her to make her leave, a scuffle ensued. This is when Schwartz walked passed who's focus was on the scuffle, he didn't notice a second man in the shadows.
The reason Stride yelped, but not loudly, was to her companion who didn't step forward to help her.

I don't accept Stride was by herself in that gateway, it's just that none of the witnesses saw this other man, and he was the one described by PC Smith & Packer. It was the man, her companion who sliced her throat, it was his intention all along.
Was he the Ripper?
Some days I think so, other days not so sure.

Good points Wick.

Another possibility of course is that she’d arranged to meet someone there. BA man or someone else. I also considered whether she was with someone, as per your suggestion, but he’d either gone into the club for some reason (to speak to someone for eg) or perhaps she was waiting why he’d gone to use the clubs outside toilet? It doesn’t explain why he didn’t come forward though. Is it believable that he went to the loo and while he was in there the Schwartz incident happened? The best I could say is that it’s not impossible.

[FISHY1118]

Some of the newspapers said that around 12:45am, close to the area, one man pursued another man who he thought was the Ripper. Possibly that's a garbled account of Pipeman chasing Schwartz. Perhaps Pipeman took the cry of "Lipski" as an accusation of Schwartz being the Ripper, not as an antisemitic slur.

Yes ,but thats just the newspapers confiming what is already known via Schwartz statement . What im talking about is there is no other version of that event at 12.45am by ''another person'' who witnessed it also .