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  • #46
    Originally posted by Elamarna View Post

    Michael, with all due respect Mortimer is not conclusively reported as claiming she was at the door until 1am.
    The timings that are quoted in the press, are not pricise and inconsistent.

    I am not even here talking about the issues of syncronizied time keeping, but pure about the different timings quoted in the press.

    You insist on repeating 1am, when such is not a view one can reach from the press reports.


    You put much faith in SOME of the timings attributed to Mortimer, those which you feel support your view, yet other comments also attributed to Mortimer in the press are etiher rejected by you or ignored.

    Of course if we were to follow the logic and reasoning you have expressed for Schwartz being unreliable, we would reject the majority of Mortimer's press comments as being clearly deemed not reliable.

    Steve
    Exactly Steve,
    Regards

    Sir Herlock Sholmes.

    “A house of delusions is cheap to build but draughty to live in.”

    Comment


    • #47
      And again on times. Michael is one of the very few looking into the case who is, for some reason, reluctant to accept the difficulties with timings. Back on the Richardson thread I posted a simple experiment that I did.

      “A few days ago I had family visiting so there were 5 other people in my house so I took the opportunity to do a very simple experiment. I checked the time on my phone and it was 3.30. I then asked the other 5 to check their phones and got 1 x 3.28, 1 x 3.31, 2 x 3.33’s and a 3.35. The clock on my hi-fi said 3.30, the one on the living room wall said 3.31, the one on the kitchen wall said 3.36 and the one on the microwave said 3.33.

      So in 2023, five smartphones, one iPhone and four modern clocks gave a range of 8 minutes at the same time​.”


      So I’ll ask Michael the same question. If this can happen in 2023 why are you so reluctant to acknowledge the possibility of it happening in 1888 in the middle of slum?
      Regards

      Sir Herlock Sholmes.

      “A house of delusions is cheap to build but draughty to live in.”

      Comment


      • #48
        So Herlock, it looks like your resolution lasted what 15 or 20 minutes? Oh well, you tried.

        c.d.

        Comment


        • #49
          Another fail.
          Regards

          Sir Herlock Sholmes.

          “A house of delusions is cheap to build but draughty to live in.”

          Comment


          • #50
            Originally posted by Michael W Richards View Post
            Sorry to say but I dont accept your ultimatum anymore than I accept your flimsy excuses.
            Herlock didn't give you an ultimatum.

            "The full picture always needs to be given. When this does not happen, we are left to make decisions on insufficient information." - Christer Holmgren

            "Unfortunately, when one becomes obsessed by a theory, truth and logic rarely matter." - Steven Blomer

            Comment


            • #51
              Originally posted by Michael W Richards View Post
              She said she went in just after 1, ...so now is reading also a weakness of yours? Hard to keep track of them all.
              Fanny Mortimer never said she went in just after 1am. You are making that up.

              "It appears that shortly before a quarter to one o'clock she heard the measured, heavy tramp of a policeman passing the house on his beat. Immediately afterwards she went to the street-door, with the intention of shooting the bolts, though she remained standing there ten minutes before she did so. During the ten minutes she saw no one enter or leave the neighbouring yard, and she feels sure that had any one done so she could not have overlooked the fact. The quiet and deserted character of the street appears even to have struck her at the time. Locking the door, she prepared to retire to bed, in the front room on the ground floor, and it so happened that in about four minutes' time she heard Diemschitz's pony cart pass the house, and remarked upon the circumstance to her husband.

              12:45am + 10 minutes + 4 minutes = 12:59am. Fanny Mortimer supported Diemshutz' timing.

              "It was soon after one o'clock when I went out, and the only man whom I had seen pass through the street previously was a young man carrying a black shiny bag, who walked very fast down the street from the Commercial-road."

              Mortimer went out, not in after 1pm. This is in response to the commotion in Dutfield's Yard and again supports Diemshutz' timing.
              "The full picture always needs to be given. When this does not happen, we are left to make decisions on insufficient information." - Christer Holmgren

              "Unfortunately, when one becomes obsessed by a theory, truth and logic rarely matter." - Steven Blomer

              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by Michael W Richards View Post
                You are making a simple untruth into some sort of sinister conspiracy, when it is nothing of the sort. Its a man trying to cover his ass and his job when a dead woman is found on the grounds of a Jewish mens club thought to be run and populated by anarchists. One he runs. During a time when Jews were being accused of crimes and persecuted in that area...ever heard of the GSG? Now put that into the context of that time, and that event.
                You are the one suggesting a conspiracy.

                * It was a Socialist Club open to "Working men of any nationality".

                * The body was found in Dutfield's Yard, not on the grounds of the Socialist Club. "On the left side of the yard is a house, which is divided into three tenements, and occupied, I believe, by that number of families. At the end is a store or workshop belonging to Messrs. Hindley and Co., sack manufacturers. I do not know that a way out exists there. The club premises and the printing-office occupy the entire length of the yard on the right side."

                * If the Club was worried about the body being found in the Yard, then the problem is where it was found, not when it was found. Lying about when does not solve the where problem.

                * Lying to the police would provide a reason for the police to shut the Club down and arrest it's members. It doesn't reduce the risk of the Club being shut down, it increases it.


                "The full picture always needs to be given. When this does not happen, we are left to make decisions on insufficient information." - Christer Holmgren

                "Unfortunately, when one becomes obsessed by a theory, truth and logic rarely matter." - Steven Blomer

                Comment


                • #53
                  Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post
                  If you stopped making things up, cherrypicking from different versions and twisting the English language to suit then you would be able to understand the situation. Until you do understand and accept that there are different versions and that estimates are just that then you’ll continue to repeat the elementary errors that you keep falling into. We are only trying to help you to understand.
                  Michael clearly has no intention of trying to understand.

                  But pointing out his errors, assumptions, and cherrypicking will help those less familiar with the topic from being confused by him.

                  "The full picture always needs to be given. When this does not happen, we are left to make decisions on insufficient information." - Christer Holmgren

                  "Unfortunately, when one becomes obsessed by a theory, truth and logic rarely matter." - Steven Blomer

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Originally posted by Michael W Richards View Post
                    A dead woman on a Jewish property during that Fall would have been poison to that club.
                    How does lying about when the body was found solve that problem?

                    Originally posted by Michael W Richards View Post
                    You keep dodging addressing the times Ive given you, and what happens when you accept Louis, and instead what happens when you accept everyone who claimed an earlier discovery time. All the earlier discover stories work together with the approximate times given. His story means that multiple witnesses were all wrong by the same amount of time and that error is 15-20 minutes. Issac K, Heschberg, Spooner, PC Lamb, Johnson...all would have incorrect times just to support Louis claims. Are you really that obstinate, that you would throw away all the supported evidence that doesnt work with Louis's?
                    No, all the earlier discovery stories do not work together.

                    PC Lamb does not give an early discovery story.

                    Johnston does not support an early discovery story.

                    Hershberg and Kozebrodsky give an early discovery story that the body was found 15 to 20 minutes before 1am. Kozebrodsky was a member of the club. Apparently he didn't get the Conspiracy memo.

                    Spooner gives a time that contradicts everybody, placing the discovery 10 or more minutes before anyone else.. He contradicts Hershberg and Kozebrodsky. He contradicts Schwartz. He contradicts Mortimer. He contradicts Goldstein. He contradicts Diemschutz, Eagle, West, Lamb, and Johnston. Spooner even contradicts Spooner.

                    "The full picture always needs to be given. When this does not happen, we are left to make decisions on insufficient information." - Christer Holmgren

                    "Unfortunately, when one becomes obsessed by a theory, truth and logic rarely matter." - Steven Blomer

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by Michael W Richards View Post
                      She said if someone had come out of that yard before 1am, she would have seen them. And we know she did see someone at 12:55, so how can you offer the above as some kind of rebuttal of that? Clearly she was not inside at 12:55.
                      Fanny Mortimer's statements rebut you.

                      "I only noticed one person passing, just before I turned in. That was a young man walking up Berner-street, carrying a black bag in his hand."

                      "Locking the door, she prepared to retire to bed, in the front room on the ground floor, and it so happened that in about four minutes' time she heard Diemschitz's pony cart pass the house, and remarked upon the circumstance to her husband."







                      "The full picture always needs to be given. When this does not happen, we are left to make decisions on insufficient information." - Christer Holmgren

                      "Unfortunately, when one becomes obsessed by a theory, truth and logic rarely matter." - Steven Blomer

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Originally posted by Michael W Richards View Post

                        The time was mentioned in an article, and Mrs Mortimer said herself that she was at her door until 1, so why do I have to keep repeating this to you? Its uncomplicated for you because you just ignore witnesses that dont agree with your "thinking".
                        You repeating a false statement doesn't make it true. Fanny Mortimer did not say she was at her door until one.
                        "The full picture always needs to be given. When this does not happen, we are left to make decisions on insufficient information." - Christer Holmgren

                        "Unfortunately, when one becomes obsessed by a theory, truth and logic rarely matter." - Steven Blomer

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Originally posted by Michael W Richards View Post
                          t takes connecting just 2 murders to one killer to claim Serial killings.......but you, nor anyone else, has connected any one murder to another.
                          The police connected the killings. The medical examiners connected the killings. The coroners connected the killings.

                          You can claim they were in error, but to say that they did not connect the murders is ignoring the evidence.
                          "The full picture always needs to be given. When this does not happen, we are left to make decisions on insufficient information." - Christer Holmgren

                          "Unfortunately, when one becomes obsessed by a theory, truth and logic rarely matter." - Steven Blomer

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Originally posted by Fiver View Post

                            Fanny Mortimer's statements rebut you.

                            "I only noticed one person passing, just before I turned in. That was a young man walking up Berner-street, carrying a black bag in his hand."
                            Except that the quote above wasn't from Fanny Mortimer. There were three interviews in the Evening New 1 Oct 1888. Two were with Fanny. Here is the one from which you derived your quote:

                            INTERVIEW WITH A NEIGHBOUR.


                            Some three doors from the gateway where the body of the first victim was discovered, I saw a clean, respectable-looking woman chatting with one or two neighbours. She was apparently the wife of a well-to-do artisan, and formed a strong contrast to many of those around her. I got into conversation with her and found that she was one of the first on the spot.

                            TEN INCHES OF COLD STEEL.


                            "I was just about going to bed, sir, when I heard a call for the police. I ran to the door, and before I could open it I heard somebody say, 'Come out quick; there's a poor woman here that's had ten inches of cold steel in her.' I hurried out, and saw some two or three people standing in the gateway. Lewis, the man who looks after the Socialist Club at No. 40, was there, and his wife.

                            "Then I see a sight that turned me all sick and cold. There was the murdered woman a-lying on her side, with her throat cut across till her head seemed to be hanging by a bit of skin. Her legs was drawn up under her, and her head and the upper part of her body was soaked in blood. She was dressed in black as if she was in mourning for somebody.

                            MURDERED WITHIN SOUND OF MUSIC AND DANCING.


                            "Did you hear no sound of quarrelling, no cry for help?" I asked.

                            "Nothing of the sort, sir. I should think I must have heard it if the poor creature screamed at all, for I hadn't long come in from the door when I was roused, as I tell you, by that call for the police. But that was from the people as found the body. Mr. Lewis, who travels in cheap drapery things a bit now and again, had just drove into the yard when his horse shied at something that was lying in the corner. He thought 'twas a bundle of some kind till he got down from his cart and struck a light. Then he saw what it was and gave the alarm."

                            "Was the street quiet at the time?"

                            "Yes, there was hardly anybody moving about, except at the club. There was music and dancing going on there at the very time that that poor creature was being murdered at their very door, as one may say."

                            A MAN WITH A BLACK BAG!


                            " I suppose you did not notice a man and woman pass down the street while you were at the door?"

                            "No, sir. I think I should have noticed them if they had. Particularly if they'd been strangers, at that time o' night. I only noticed one person passing, just before I turned in. That was a young man walking up Berner-street, carrying a black bag in his hand."

                            "Did you observe him closely, or notice anything in his appearance?"

                            "No, I didn't pay particular attention to him. He was respectably dressed, but was a stranger to me. He might ha' been coming from the Socialist Club., A good many young men goes there, of a Saturday night especially."

                            That was all that my informant had to tell me. I wonder will the detectives think it worth while to satisfy themselves about that black bag?


                            Note that the interviewee is described as "a clean, respectable-looking woman chatting with one or two neighbours. She was apparently the wife of a well-to-do artisan, and formed a strong contrast to many of those around her". This can't have been Mortimer as her husband was a carman. Her statement was quite different to that of Mortimer and she said the she saw "a young man walking up Berner-street, carrying a black bag in his hand", and that "He might ha' been coming from the Socialist Club". This appears to be a sighting of Goldstein on his way to the coffee shop (or was he leaving the yard after murdering Stride?). Curious that she sees Diemshitz (Mr Lewis) at the yard after the alarm had been sounded since Diemshitz testified at the inquest that he was running through the street sounding the alarm. The other interesting thing to note is the report of the voice in the street referring to "10 inches of cold steel" - the blade of the Coram knife which was found the next day was 10 inches.​
                            They are not long, the days of wine and roses:
                            Out of a misty dream
                            Our path emerges for a while, then closes
                            Within a dream.
                            Ernest Dowson - Vitae Summa Brevis​

                            ​Disagreeing doesn't have to be disagreeable - Jeff Hamm

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Originally posted by GBinOz View Post

                              Except that the quote above wasn't from Fanny Mortimer. There were three interviews in the Evening New 1 Oct 1888. Two were with Fanny. Here is the one from which you derived your quote:

                              INTERVIEW WITH A NEIGHBOUR.


                              Some three doors from the gateway where the body of the first victim was discovered, I saw a clean, respectable-looking woman chatting with one or two neighbours. She was apparently the wife of a well-to-do artisan, and formed a strong contrast to many of those around her. I got into conversation with her and found that she was one of the first on the spot.

                              TEN INCHES OF COLD STEEL.


                              "I was just about going to bed, sir, when I heard a call for the police. I ran to the door, and before I could open it I heard somebody say, 'Come out quick; there's a poor woman here that's had ten inches of cold steel in her.' I hurried out, and saw some two or three people standing in the gateway. Lewis, the man who looks after the Socialist Club at No. 40, was there, and his wife.

                              "Then I see a sight that turned me all sick and cold. There was the murdered woman a-lying on her side, with her throat cut across till her head seemed to be hanging by a bit of skin. Her legs was drawn up under her, and her head and the upper part of her body was soaked in blood. She was dressed in black as if she was in mourning for somebody.

                              MURDERED WITHIN SOUND OF MUSIC AND DANCING.


                              "Did you hear no sound of quarrelling, no cry for help?" I asked.

                              "Nothing of the sort, sir. I should think I must have heard it if the poor creature screamed at all, for I hadn't long come in from the door when I was roused, as I tell you, by that call for the police. But that was from the people as found the body. Mr. Lewis, who travels in cheap drapery things a bit now and again, had just drove into the yard when his horse shied at something that was lying in the corner. He thought 'twas a bundle of some kind till he got down from his cart and struck a light. Then he saw what it was and gave the alarm."

                              "Was the street quiet at the time?"

                              "Yes, there was hardly anybody moving about, except at the club. There was music and dancing going on there at the very time that that poor creature was being murdered at their very door, as one may say."

                              A MAN WITH A BLACK BAG!


                              " I suppose you did not notice a man and woman pass down the street while you were at the door?"

                              "No, sir. I think I should have noticed them if they had. Particularly if they'd been strangers, at that time o' night. I only noticed one person passing, just before I turned in. That was a young man walking up Berner-street, carrying a black bag in his hand."

                              "Did you observe him closely, or notice anything in his appearance?"

                              "No, I didn't pay particular attention to him. He was respectably dressed, but was a stranger to me. He might ha' been coming from the Socialist Club., A good many young men goes there, of a Saturday night especially."

                              That was all that my informant had to tell me. I wonder will the detectives think it worth while to satisfy themselves about that black bag?


                              Note that the interviewee is described as "a clean, respectable-looking woman chatting with one or two neighbours. She was apparently the wife of a well-to-do artisan, and formed a strong contrast to many of those around her". This can't have been Mortimer as her husband was a carman. Her statement was quite different to that of Mortimer and she said the she saw "a young man walking up Berner-street, carrying a black bag in his hand", and that "He might ha' been coming from the Socialist Club". This appears to be a sighting of Goldstein on his way to the coffee shop (or was he leaving the yard after murdering Stride?). Curious that she sees Diemshitz (Mr Lewis) at the yard after the alarm had been sounded since Diemshitz testified at the inquest that he was running through the street sounding the alarm. The other interesting thing to note is the report of the voice in the street referring to "10 inches of cold steel" - the blade of the Coram knife which was found the next day was 10 inches.​
                              Hi George,

                              Fair points of course. Do you think though that the mention of ‘apparently the wife of a well-to-do-artisan’ when Mortimer’s other half was actually a Carman (hopefully not a bigamous Charles Cross) might have come from a bit of exaggeration by her? Maybe trying to place herself slightly ‘above’ her neighbours? When the reporter first saw her the woman was standing outside Mortimer’s house after all. She also mentions hearing the music from the club. The use of the word ‘up’ might just have been down to a different reporter writing it up and, perhaps unintentionally, slipping in his word rather than hers.

                              Im wondering if this is an example of a reporter doing a bit of ‘fleshing out?’

                              Regards

                              Sir Herlock Sholmes.

                              “A house of delusions is cheap to build but draughty to live in.”

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Originally posted by GBinOz View Post

                                Except that the quote above wasn't from Fanny Mortimer. There were three interviews in the Evening New 1 Oct 1888. Two were with Fanny. Here is the one from which you derived your quote:

                                INTERVIEW WITH A NEIGHBOUR.


                                Some three doors from the gateway where the body of the first victim was discovered, I saw a clean, respectable-looking woman chatting with one or two neighbours. She was apparently the wife of a well-to-do artisan, and formed a strong contrast to many of those around her. I got into conversation with her and found that she was one of the first on the spot.

                                TEN INCHES OF COLD STEEL.


                                "I was just about going to bed, sir, when I heard a call for the police. I ran to the door, and before I could open it I heard somebody say, 'Come out quick; there's a poor woman here that's had ten inches of cold steel in her.' I hurried out, and saw some two or three people standing in the gateway. Lewis, the man who looks after the Socialist Club at No. 40, was there, and his wife.

                                "Then I see a sight that turned me all sick and cold. There was the murdered woman a-lying on her side, with her throat cut across till her head seemed to be hanging by a bit of skin. Her legs was drawn up under her, and her head and the upper part of her body was soaked in blood. She was dressed in black as if she was in mourning for somebody.

                                MURDERED WITHIN SOUND OF MUSIC AND DANCING.


                                "Did you hear no sound of quarrelling, no cry for help?" I asked.

                                "Nothing of the sort, sir. I should think I must have heard it if the poor creature screamed at all, for I hadn't long come in from the door when I was roused, as I tell you, by that call for the police. But that was from the people as found the body. Mr. Lewis, who travels in cheap drapery things a bit now and again, had just drove into the yard when his horse shied at something that was lying in the corner. He thought 'twas a bundle of some kind till he got down from his cart and struck a light. Then he saw what it was and gave the alarm."

                                "Was the street quiet at the time?"

                                "Yes, there was hardly anybody moving about, except at the club. There was music and dancing going on there at the very time that that poor creature was being murdered at their very door, as one may say."

                                A MAN WITH A BLACK BAG!


                                " I suppose you did not notice a man and woman pass down the street while you were at the door?"

                                "No, sir. I think I should have noticed them if they had. Particularly if they'd been strangers, at that time o' night. I only noticed one person passing, just before I turned in. That was a young man walking up Berner-street, carrying a black bag in his hand."

                                "Did you observe him closely, or notice anything in his appearance?"

                                "No, I didn't pay particular attention to him. He was respectably dressed, but was a stranger to me. He might ha' been coming from the Socialist Club., A good many young men goes there, of a Saturday night especially."

                                That was all that my informant had to tell me. I wonder will the detectives think it worth while to satisfy themselves about that black bag?


                                Note that the interviewee is described as "a clean, respectable-looking woman chatting with one or two neighbours. She was apparently the wife of a well-to-do artisan, and formed a strong contrast to many of those around her". This can't have been Mortimer as her husband was a carman. Her statement was quite different to that of Mortimer and she said the she saw "a young man walking up Berner-street, carrying a black bag in his hand", and that "He might ha' been coming from the Socialist Club". This appears to be a sighting of Goldstein on his way to the coffee shop (or was he leaving the yard after murdering Stride?). Curious that she sees Diemshitz (Mr Lewis) at the yard after the alarm had been sounded since Diemshitz testified at the inquest that he was running through the street sounding the alarm. The other interesting thing to note is the report of the voice in the street referring to "10 inches of cold steel" - the blade of the Coram knife which was found the next day was 10 inches.​
                                The length of the blade found by Coram is not that clear George.

                                It seems few press reports carried any real discription of the knife.
                                The Daily Telegraph on 4th says

                                " the blade which was discoloured with something resembling blood, was quite a foot long and an inch broad, whilst the black handle was six inches in length."

                                That suggests about a foot or 12 inches, possibly slightly less.

                                One of the few other reports appears in the

                                East London Observer, which merely says the blade was apparently about 10 inches.

                                Given the blade was shown to Coram at the inquest, this report gives the impression of being written by someone who was not present, possible a 2nd hand report.

                                Steve

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