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  • Originally posted by c.d. View Post
    "All suggests to me that she was meeting a beau rather than looking for sex work."

    But isn't fresh breath an asset in both those cases?
    I suspect there's a great difference. A brief sex act for money wouldn't even need to be face to face, whereas spooning with Michael Kidney's replacement might be close-up and mouth-to-mouth for a significant time.

    YMMV.

    M.
    (Image of Charles Allen Lechmere is by artist Ashton Guilbeaux. Used by permission. Original art-work for sale.)

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Mark J D View Post

      I suspect there's a great difference. A brief sex act for money wouldn't even need to be face to face, whereas spooning with Michael Kidney's replacement might be close-up and mouth-to-mouth for a significant time.

      YMMV.

      M.
      Well, would fresh breath be a liability in either case? And maybe a quick wham bam was proceeded by a little flirting in the pub or on the street. Certainly fresh breath could help and not hurt.

      And maybe she was simply someone who liked to have fresh breath.

      c.d.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post

        If your detective hero is called Clouseau, maybe.
        I am starting to find your unpleasant re-iteration of complete nonsense entertaining in its own right. Since you will never be credible, at least you can be entertaining. A cop finds a woman with a severe head injury lying on the ground dead. He goes to his commanding officer before filing his report, and suggests to the commander that he would like to include that its possible the assailant held her by her feet in the air and dropped her on her head. Commander says, "What evidence is there to suggest that method?" The cop says "Well,... none, but we cant rule anything out". Does he get a talking to, a raise or a reprimand?

        In your bizzaro world he gets a promotion it would seem.
        Michael Richards

        Comment


        • Originally posted by The Rookie Detective View Post

          But let's continue...

          And then we have Israel Schwartz... poor Israel Schwartz who has often been ridiculed and dismissed. But why?
          Perhaps Anti-Semitic views have played their horrid part and if he had been English, then he may have been deemed as the most reliable witness ever. Very sad for him indeed.

          And yet, what's the real reason for dismissing him?

          Israel must have entered Berner Street AFTER PC Smith had seen his suspect at 12.35am, because Israel never saw PC Smith.


          12.45am (approx)

          He sees a man STOP and speak to Stride.

          That implies that the man he saw was in transit because the man stopped to talk to her and wasn't already talking with her.
          So, what happened to Parcel-man?
          At 12:35 Stride was with him, and she had been with a man since at least 11:00pm, so I'm thinking Bricklayers Arms-man is also Parcel-man.
          So, Parcel-man has bought her some grapes, fully intending to spend some time with her, yet 10 mins later she is alone, or is she?
          Why would she stand by herself in a gateway?
          Although Schwartz did not see a second man, his attention was fixed on the man walking ahead of him who has just assaulted a woman standing in the gateway.
          If Stride was facing the road it could be argued she was by herself, but if her back was to the road, she will have been facing Parcel-man, who is stood in the shadows, out of sight of Schwartz.

          Interestingly, in the police statement written by Swanson, Schwartz says "the man turned her around", the full statements reads:

          "The man tried to pull the woman into the street, but he turned her round & threw her down on the footway & the woman screamed three times, but not very loudly."

          When anyone talks about this assault they often leave out the "turned her around", as it makes little sense if she is facing the road, which everyone assumes she is. Why would BS-man turn her around so her back is facing him, then throw her down?
          It makes no sense.
          Stride was not facing the road, BS-man had to turn her around because she was stood facing someone she was with.
          This I believe must be Parcel-man, she was talking to him in the shadows.

          Schwartz was walking behind BS-man, and saw him grab at a woman who had her back to him. BS-man saw what was going on, recognised her as soliciting so pulled her away then turned her around, he may even have growled something like, "we don't want your sort around here", and she stumbled to her knees whimpering "oh" to the man she was with, who stayed out of sight not coming to her aid.
          This is why she cried out, but not loudly, because someone was with her. If she had been alone it would be normal for a woman to scream for help, loudly. In her case she didn't think she needed to because she thought Parcel-man would come to her aid, but he didn't.
          Schwartz saw no-one else just the scuffle, and BS-man also walked on.




          The man standing across the road opposite was lighting his cigar and appeared stationary...

          Or did he just come out of the pub? But the pubs would have been closed at this point according to Packer's statement/altered statement.
          The second man, typically referred to as Pipeman, came out of the doorway of the beerhouse on the same side of the road as the club.
          Anyone lighting a pipe will often take shelter in a doorway, so the match doesn't flicker out in a breeze.


          After Israel heard the term LIPSKI being shouted over towards the man standing across the road, the man followed Israel for a short while. Israel said he RAN but the other man didn't follow as far.

          In context, this would imply that the man who followed behind Israel was working with the man who threw Stride to the floor.

          Or perhaps the man who threw her to the floor was just trying to get behind her and the action of trying to drag her onto the street may have been the man struggling to get her onto the floor and so he spins her around first in a slingshot motion to throw her towards the footway.

          Did the man shout Lipski?

          Luski? (George)
          Lipman? (Barney)

          Let's move on...


          And not forget James Brown, another key witness...around the same time, he sees Stride leaning against a wall talking with a man.

          (Stout, 5ft 7, long black coat down to his heels, arm against the wall)

          He hears Stride say to him...

          "No, not tonight, some other night"
          If you do a newspaper search in Press Reports, for "sweetheart" it will bring up this other couple who were stood on the corner by the Board School, Mortimer also saw them. I think this may be the couple seen by Marshall or Brown.


          That's the only time that we hear NEGATIVE rejective speech.

          Billycock hat man - kissing and hugging 2 hours earlier at a different location. (CLIENT)

          Then in Berner Street...
          Sailor Hat man - Kissing and carrying on - "You'd say anything but your prayer" - An hour earlier. (CLIENT)

          Where do they go before she meets...

          Wideawake Hat man - Spend over half an hour together - no kissing just talking and buying grapes while being watched by Packer. (CLIENT OR KNOWN TO HER PERSONALLY)


          Then PC Smith at 12.35am sees Deerstalker hat man - younger and with a parcel. (Possible client but NO intimacy observed)


          Then Schwartz witnesses her being attacked and thrown to the floor by WIDE BRIM FELT HAT MAN


          But James Brown observes around the same time - (a man with a style of hat unconfirmed?)...being REJECTED by Stride.


          What did she mean by "No, not tonight, some other night" ?

          The phrase implies that she was familiar with him as a client, a regular perhaps?

          "Some other night" - meaning that she was either tired through having been intimate with several other men over the past couple of hours....or he was asking her to do something sexually that she wasn't in the mood for.

          Was the man Brown described the same man that Israel saw approach Stride, and who then assaulted her seemingly unprovoked?
          Schwartz cannot have seen Stride assaulted at 12:45 if James Brown saw Stride at the same time.
          I think James Brown saw someone else, he also saw no flower on the woman's jacket.


          And then there's Fanny Mortimer from 36 Berner Street who was adamant that there was nobody was outside between 12.45 -12.55am; because she was standing at her door, apart from Leon Goldstein who had passed her door with a black bag.

          And so with all of the witness statements clashing in terms of timings and descriptions, what is the most accurate scenario?


          Well if we consider Mrs Mortimers evidence and that of the Israel Schwartz, then the killer is likely to have been the man who threw her to the floor. However, neither Mortimer or Schwartz gave evidence at the inquest, which is unusual.

          What are the chances of Stride being attacked by 2 different men in under 15 minutes of each other?


          And what about Goldstiein? Mrs Mortimer saw him around 12.45am and he later went to the police to confirm him being passing through Berner Street. That would indicate that Mrs Mortimer's evidence is particularly reliable.


          And so, it's picking a HAT MAN time.

          One of those men killed her, but who?


          We have men with at least 4 different style hats and 2 whose hats aren't mentioned.


          Getting height or age wrong can be subjective and depends on the persons interpretation of a description. However, looking at a man's hat shorty before a woman is murdered, is better a way to identify a potential killer because men DIDN'T share their hats and certainly wouldn't have carried any spare ones on their person.

          And what happened to SAILOR HAT MAN after they were kissing and carrying on?... They must have gone somewhere to conclude their intimate business? The man she left the pub with; BILLYCOCK HAT MAN, he likely went with her and then they parted ways before she entered Berner Street.


          Do any of the suspects match?

          Only the man seen by Packer who bought grapes and the man seen by Schwartz throwing her to the floor are similar in terms of their hats.

          WIDEAWAKE HAT MAN (Packer) /WIDE BRIM FELT HAT MAN (Schwartz) are the only two that I can see are similar and possibly the same man.


          LOTS to think about...

          Did Goldstein kill her as he passed her in his big clunky boots?

          Was Stride laying hurt and inured by the man who threw her to the floor... and the real killer had been waiting for a while at the back of the yard biding his time and watching her from behind her in the dark, waiting to strike?

          Notice that I'm not looking at Stride Post Mortem, because there's a better chance of finding her killer BEFORE he actually killed her. Once she was murdered, the killer was in the wind.


          BILLYCOCK HAT MAN - Clerk?
          SAILOR HAT MAN - Sailor?
          WIDEAWAKE HAT MAN - religious man/quaker/evangelist?
          DEERSTALKER HAT MAN - Actor carrying a flute asking for directions to the nearest theater?
          ...
          RD
          If you eliminate both the Marshall suspect and the Brown suspect, and leave the deerstalker out as the official police poster described only a Hard Felt Hat, then things may be clearer. And remember, turning a woman around at the start of an assault is suggestive that her back was towards BS-man, plus the silent objection by Stride are indicative that she was with someone else in that gateway.
          Regards, Jon S.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Michael W Richards View Post

            I am starting to find your unpleasant re-iteration of complete nonsense entertaining in its own right. Since you will never be credible, at least you can be entertaining. A cop finds a woman with a severe head injury lying on the ground dead. He goes to his commanding officer before filing his report, and suggests to the commander that he would like to include that its possible the assailant held her by her feet in the air and dropped her on her head. Commander says, "What evidence is there to suggest that method?" The cop says "Well,... none, but we cant rule anything out". Does he get a talking to, a raise or a reprimand?

            In your bizzaro world he gets a promotion it would seem.
            Yup. A fairly pathetic response as ever.

            Ill do it again…..will you answer?

            Man cuts woman’s throat……….just as he does it something interrupts/disturbs him…….he scarpers………woman left on the ground with her throat cut.

            IF the killer had intended to mutilate her but the interruption prevented it…….what evidence of that intention would we EXPECT to see?

            Name a piece of evidence that would unavoidably have been present proving intention to mutilate.

            You won’t be able to name anything of course so cue some obfuscation and waffle.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by The Rookie Detective View Post
              The only issue I have with Packer regards the time he says that the couple spent standing across the road talking and standing in the rain with grapes for over half an hour with no signs of intimacy like witnessed with her previous client outside the Bricklayers Arms.

              Would her killer spend over half an hour with Stride before he killed her?
              I suspect the view this Ripper just suddenly pounced on his victims out of the shadows, is likely wrong.
              We cannot account for the hours leading up the Nichols murder - where was she?
              Likewise with Chapman, where was she prior to her murder?
              We may have an example of his dating his victims, striking up a rapport, getting to know them. Perhaps it adds to the thrill of what he intends to do. Just killing someone out of the blue does not give him what he needs.

              Students of the case have typically taken the Eddowes murder, a blitz attack as his Modus Operandi
              Perhaps we have been wrong all along. Stride was a better example of his M.O. than any of the others, it's just that after all his attention to her, right at the culmination of his plan, he is interrupted. This is why he spends no time dating Eddowes, he's all spent up on entertainment - he just wants to get to the fun part.


              Based on Wickerman's brilliant viewpoints a few posts previous, it has cleared the fog somewhat and perhaps the idea that she had several clients isn't as accurate a depiction as I had first thought.
              Thankyou for those few kind words.


              If PC Smith saw a man talking to Stride with the parcel but he wasn't wearing a Deerstalker Hat, then that changes the picture and perhaps signifies that Stride was in the company of the same man for a while.

              Is there a chance then that if we dismiss the man with the sailor hat who said "You'd say anything but your prayers" becasue she may have been a different woman, then it perhaps suggests that once she arrived in Berner Street, that she wasn't touting for business after all and may explain why she told the man seen talking to her by the wall "No, not tonight, some other night."

              If she was in Berner Street after she had been with the man in the Billycock hat, then she could have been waiting for someone in Berner Street. Why stand by the entrance to the yard outside the club?

              In the rain.

              If the man in the Sailor hat was a red herring and was a different couple, then there's no evidence that Stride was touting for business in Berner Street and changes things somewhat

              Interesting indeed...

              RD
              It doesn't hurt to go over all the old details, sometimes we see things from a different point of view. I appreciate your interest, Packer does add some value, unfortunately he seems to become a bit of a nuisance in later months.

              Regards, Jon S.

              Comment


              • James Brown testified:
                I live in Fairclough-street, and am a dock labourer. I have seen the body in the mortuary. I did not know deceased, but I saw her about a quarter to one on Sunday morning last.
                The Coroner: Where were you? - I was going from my house to the chandler's shop at the corner of the Berner-street and Fairclough-street, to get some supper. I stayed there three or four minutes, and then went back home, when I saw a man and woman standing at the corner of the Board School. I was in the road just by the kerb, and they were near the wall.​


                In the press we read of a couple on the corner.

                London Evening News, Oct 1, 1888.
                THE SILENCE OF THE MURDERER.

                "When the alarm of murder was raised a young girl had been standing in a bisecting thoroughfare not fifty yards from the spot where the body was found. She had, she said, been standing there for about twenty-minutes, talking with her sweetheart, but neither of them heard any unusual noises".

                Morning Advertiser, 1 Oct. 1888.

                Mrs Mortimer said:
                "A young man and his sweetheart were standing at the corner of the street, about twenty yards away, before and after the woman must have been murdered, but they told me they did not hear a sound."

                This couple is who I think James Brown was referring to, not Stride.
                Regards, Jon S.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Wickerman View Post
                  James Brown testified:
                  I live in Fairclough-street, and am a dock labourer. I have seen the body in the mortuary. I did not know deceased, but I saw her about a quarter to one on Sunday morning last.
                  The Coroner: Where were you? - I was going from my house to the chandler's shop at the corner of the Berner-street and Fairclough-street, to get some supper. I stayed there three or four minutes, and then went back home, when I saw a man and woman standing at the corner of the Board School. I was in the road just by the kerb, and they were near the wall.​


                  In the press we read of a couple on the corner.

                  London Evening News, Oct 1, 1888.
                  THE SILENCE OF THE MURDERER.


                  "When the alarm of murder was raised a young girl had been standing in a bisecting thoroughfare not fifty yards from the spot where the body was found. She had, she said, been standing there for about twenty-minutes, talking with her sweetheart, but neither of them heard any unusual noises".

                  Morning Advertiser, 1 Oct. 1888.

                  Mrs Mortimer said:
                  "A young man and his sweetheart were standing at the corner of the street, about twenty yards away, before and after the woman must have been murdered, but they told me they did not hear a sound."

                  This couple is who I think James Brown was referring to, not Stride.
                  Hi Jon!

                  Maybe Mrs. Mortimer had talked to Edward Spooner and his young woman... who were standing outside the Beehive public house on the corner of Christian Street and Fairclough Street between 12.30am and 1.00am.

                  Spooner lived at 26 Fairclough Street and James Brown lived at 35 Fairclough Street.

                  Fanny Mortimer, Edward Spooner and James Brown were all neighbors. I suspect that Brown knew his neighbor(s) and although it was quite dark he would have recognised him(them)... in any manner...

                  Karsten.​

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by S.Brett View Post

                    Hi Jon!

                    Maybe Mrs. Mortimer had talked to Edward Spooner and his young woman... who were standing outside the Beehive public house on the corner of Christian Street and Fairclough Street between 12.30am and 1.00am.

                    Spooner lived at 26 Fairclough Street and James Brown lived at 35 Fairclough Street.

                    Fanny Mortimer, Edward Spooner and James Brown were all neighbors. I suspect that Brown knew his neighbor(s) and although it was quite dark he would have recognised him(them)... in any manner...

                    Karsten.​
                    Hi Karsten.

                    No.26 is on the south side, between Christian and Grove.
                    Spooner never said he walked west to Fairclough & Berner, in fact he was still at the Beehive when Diemshutz & Kozebrodski ran eastward past him shouting for a policeman.
                    Spooner is just not at that corner for Mortimer to see.

                    I'm not sure I would describe someone living at 36 Berner St. as a neighbour of 26 & 36 Fairclough St.

                    Regards, Jon S.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Wickerman View Post

                      Hi Karsten.

                      No.26 is on the south side, between Christian and Grove.
                      Spooner never said he walked west to Fairclough & Berner, in fact he was still at the Beehive when Diemshutz & Kozebrodski ran eastward past him shouting for a policeman.
                      Spooner is just not at that corner for Mortimer to see.

                      I'm not sure I would describe someone living at 36 Berner St. as a neighbour of 26 & 36 Fairclough St.
                      Thanks Jon!

                      Were number 26 & 35 opposite?

                      Did Mrs. Mortimer see this couple at the corner or did they tell her they were standing there?

                      Brown said he saw a couple standing by the Board School, I guess at the corner of Berner Street/ Fairclough Street, is that right?

                      If Mortimer had talked to (young man) Spooner and his young woman this couple was the same Brown had seen? Spooner said they were standing all the time outside the Beehive, not at the corner Berner Street/ Fairclough Street.

                      You say:

                      "This couple (Mortimer described) is who I think James Brown was referring to, not Stride"

                      If Spooner and the young woman were never standing by the Board School and IF they were the same couple Mrs. Mortimer had talked with then Brown did not see them (maybe they knew each other) but another couple.

                      Of course, the ("twenty minutes") couple Mortimer described may have been another young couple and not the young Spooner and his young woman ("talking for about 25 minutes" outside the Beehive) but I think it is possible they were the couple Fanny Mortimer described. If so, they were not standing by the Board School, not the couple Brown had seen.

                      Maybe Im getting it wrong​, its late, Jon... good night...

                      Karsten.​

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Wickerman View Post
                        James Brown testified:
                        I live in Fairclough-street, and am a dock labourer. I have seen the body in the mortuary. I did not know deceased, but I saw her about a quarter to one on Sunday morning last.
                        The Coroner: Where were you? - I was going from my house to the chandler's shop at the corner of the Berner-street and Fairclough-street, to get some supper. I stayed there three or four minutes, and then went back home, when I saw a man and woman standing at the corner of the Board School. I was in the road just by the kerb, and they were near the wall.​


                        In the press we read of a couple on the corner.

                        London Evening News, Oct 1, 1888.
                        THE SILENCE OF THE MURDERER.

                        "When the alarm of murder was raised a young girl had been standing in a bisecting thoroughfare not fifty yards from the spot where the body was found. She had, she said, been standing there for about twenty-minutes, talking with her sweetheart, but neither of them heard any unusual noises".

                        Morning Advertiser, 1 Oct. 1888.

                        Mrs Mortimer said:
                        "A young man and his sweetheart were standing at the corner of the street, about twenty yards away, before and after the woman must have been murdered, but they told me they did not hear a sound."

                        This couple is who I think James Brown was referring to, not Stride.
                        Brown testifies... "I have seen the body in the mortuary. I did not know deceased, but i saw her a quarter to one on Sunday morning past"

                        To me, that's as clear as day and he is referring to Stride...because he has just linked the mortuary, not knowing her personally, but having seen her at 12.45am.
                        He doesn't just say he saw a couple talking, he specifically links Stride as the woman he saw because he had seen her in the mortuary.

                        I would suggest that the couple HE saw WAS Stride and perhaps the couple who bought grapes from Packer and stood there in the rain for over half an hour (as sweethearts would do) are more likely to be the red herring.

                        Stride had caucous in her hand and not grapes.

                        Packer is more likely to have his couples wrong than Brown.

                        Regardless of where people were standing, that's not the primary aspect because people move all the time and it can be subjective depending on when you see a couple.

                        It seems more plausible to me that Packer saw another couple and Stride and a man were seen by Brown and Stride rejected him by saying "No, not tonight, some other night"


                        Did Packer see Stride at the mortuary?

                        If the couple standing in the rain across the road for over half an hour was Stride and her potential killer, WHY would the killer allow himself to be exposed like that in the open?

                        I believe that Packer was wrong and the Le Grand's attempts to flush out a statement from Packer only served to confuse matters and muddy the waters.


                        If we consider that Packer served grapes to someone else and NOT Stride and around 12.45am BROWN saw Stride leaning up against the wall, does that alter the picture completely?

                        What if Brown was correct and Stride was at the spot where Brown saw her?

                        After Brown saw her, could Stride have walked away from the man and towards the murder site and then the man who had been seen by Brown then follows her...and that's the man that Israel Schwartz then sees walking towards her. Does Israel see Stride being followed by the man that Stride had just walked away from?

                        Does the geography work?

                        IF Israel Schwartz enters from the location that Brown had seen Stride leaning up against the wall with the man she told "No, not tonight, some other night" then that's the sequence of events that makes sense.

                        If however, Schwartz enters from the opposite end to where Brown saw the couple, then it's incorrect.


                        So, just to clarify, Brown sees Stride with a man who she tells "No, not tonight, some other night"...

                        Stride then walks off towards the murder site...

                        The man is angered at being rejected and goes to follow her just as Israel Schwartz enters the street from the same direction from which Stride had just walked from to get away from the man...

                        The man walks up to Stride who has stopped and then he attacks her as described by Schwartz.

                        This all occurs at 12.45am and matches BOTH Brown and Schwartz timings.


                        BUT does it work in terms of Geography?


                        Thoughts?


                        RD












                        "Great minds, don't think alike"

                        Comment


                        • Hi Karsten

                          Here is a map, I put coloured dots to identify people & locations.

                          Green - Mortimer, 36 Berner St.
                          Red - Stride, Dutfields Yard.
                          White - Couple on corner by Board School.
                          Blue - Marshall, 64 Berner St.

                          Purple - Brown, 35 Fairclough (block 3393).
                          Pale Blue - Beehive PH, 36 Fairclough (block 3393).
                          Orange - Spooner, 26 Fairclough (block 3403).


                          Regards, Jon S.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by The Rookie Detective View Post

                            It seems more plausible to me that Packer saw another couple and Stride and a man were seen by Brown and Stride rejected him by saying "No, not tonight, some other night"


                            Did Packer see Stride at the mortuary?
                            This is what we are told, he was taken to see the body by Le Grand.
                            Regards, Jon S.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by S.Brett View Post

                              Thanks Jon!

                              Were number 26 & 35 opposite?

                              Did Mrs. Mortimer see this couple at the corner or did they tell her they were standing there?
                              It could be either, but the girl spoke to an Evening News reporter, she told him where she was.

                              Brown said he saw a couple standing by the Board School, I guess at the corner of Berner Street/ Fairclough Street, is that right?
                              Yes.

                              If Mortimer had talked to (young man) Spooner and his young woman this couple was the same Brown had seen? Spooner said they were standing all the time outside the Beehive, not at the corner Berner Street/ Fairclough Street.

                              You say:

                              "This couple (Mortimer described) is who I think James Brown was referring to, not Stride"

                              If Spooner and the young woman were never standing by the Board School and IF they were the same couple Mrs. Mortimer had talked with then Brown did not see them (maybe they knew each other) but another couple.

                              Of course, the ("twenty minutes") couple Mortimer described may have been another young couple and not the young Spooner and his young woman ("talking for about 25 minutes" outside the Beehive) but I think it is possible they were the couple Fanny Mortimer described. If so, they were not standing by the Board School, not the couple Brown had seen.

                              Maybe Im getting it wrong​, its late, Jon... good night...

                              Karsten.​
                              yes, you've lost me with that last bit.
                              I don't know if you're asking me, or telling me good night.

                              Regards, Jon S.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Wickerman View Post

                                So, what happened to Parcel-man?
                                IMO this is a key question.

                                At 12:35 Stride was with him, and she had been with a man since at least 11:00pm, so I'm thinking Bricklayers Arms-man is also Parcel-man.
                                I agree.

                                So, Parcel-man has bought her some grapes, fully intending to spend some time with her, yet 10 mins later she is alone, or is she?
                                Why would she stand by herself in a gateway?
                                IMO she was waiting for someone.

                                Although Schwartz did not see a second man, his attention was fixed on the man walking ahead of him who has just assaulted a woman standing in the gateway.
                                If Stride was facing the road it could be argued she was by herself, but if her back was to the road, she will have been facing Parcel-man, who is stood in the shadows, out of sight of Schwartz.

                                Interestingly, in the police statement written by Swanson, Schwartz says "the man turned her around", the full statements reads:

                                "The man tried to pull the woman into the street, but he turned her round & threw her down on the footway & the woman screamed three times, but not very loudly."

                                When anyone talks about this assault they often leave out the "turned her around", as it makes little sense if she is facing the road, which everyone assumes she is. Why would BS-man turn her around so her back is facing him, then throw her down?
                                It makes no sense.
                                Stride was not facing the road, BS-man had to turn her around because she was stood facing someone she was with.
                                This I believe must be Parcel-man, she was talking to him in the shadows.
                                My thoughts are that Parcelman had gone to use the loo in the yard. I think BSMan took her by the right arm trying to pull her from the yard. She said "let me go" and tried to pull away from him with an anticlockwise twist of her body, but he did let her go at that moment and she overbalanced and fell down. That said, I think your scenario also makes a great deal of sense.

                                Schwartz was walking behind BS-man, and saw him grab at a woman who had her back to him. BS-man saw what was going on, recognised her as soliciting so pulled her away then turned her around, he may even have growled something like, "we don't want your sort around here", and she stumbled to her knees whimpering "oh" to the man she was with, who stayed out of sight not coming to her aid.
                                This is why she cried out, but not loudly, because someone was with her. If she had been alone it would be normal for a woman to scream for help, loudly. In her case she didn't think she needed to because she thought Parcel-man would come to her aid, but he didn't.
                                Schwartz saw no-one else just the scuffle, and BS-man also walked on.
                                I think she cried out, but not loudly, because it was a domestic, and domestic arguments are often toned down in volume to avoid attracting attention. Jon, if you have BSMan walking on, who do you have as murdering Stride? IMO it wasn't Parcelman. He had spent too much time courting her. I think either BSMan killed her in a fit of anger just as Parcelman returned from the loo, or, Pipeman returned to the yard and warned off BSMan, and acting as a rescuer escorted her towards the club door, killing her just a Parcelman returned and interrupted him. Hence the story in the Star regarding a pursuit through the streets.

                                The second man, typically referred to as Pipeman, came out of the doorway of the beerhouse on the same side of the road as the club.
                                Anyone lighting a pipe will often take shelter in a doorway, so the match doesn't flicker out in a breeze.
                                As a pipesmoker I can confirm this statement as correct.

                                If you do a newspaper search in Press Reports, for "sweetheart" it will bring up this other couple who were stood on the corner by the Board School, Mortimer also saw them. I think this may be the couple seen by Marshall or Brown.
                                IMO, by Marshall AND Brown. Like you, I regard Packer as an under-rated witness.

                                Schwartz cannot have seen Stride assaulted at 12:45 if James Brown saw Stride at the same time.
                                I think James Brown saw someone else, he also saw no flower on the woman's jacket.
                                I agree.

                                If you eliminate both the Marshall suspect and the Brown suspect, and leave the deerstalker out as the official police poster described only a Hard Felt Hat, then things may be clearer. And remember, turning a woman around at the start of an assault is suggestive that her back was towards BS-man, plus the silent objection by Stride are indicative that she was with someone else in that gateway.
                                Hi Jon,

                                At one stage (I haven't been able to relocate it) I found an article that stated that historically a hard felt deer stalker was actually used on country estate for deer stalking, and was in the Fedora style. The soft cloth version was used for convenience in the city.

                                IMO Stride was murdered either by BSMan as part of a domestic (not a JtR murder) or she was murdered by Pipeman (JtR), and I rate it as 50/50. With regard to your question in a previous post, the comparison between Stride and McKenzie is a matter of timing. If the Stride murder had been 8 months later, and/or McKenzie 8 months earlier, they may have changed positions in the C5 list.

                                Best regards, George
                                Last edited by GBinOz; 09-01-2023, 02:30 AM.
                                They are not long, the days of wine and roses:
                                Out of a misty dream
                                Our path emerges for a while, then closes
                                Within a dream.
                                Ernest Dowson - Vitae Summa Brevis​

                                ​Disagreeing doesn't have to be disagreeable - Jeff Hamm

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