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  • Originally posted by Michael W Richards View Post

    The quote I posted from reputable sources says that Pipeman came from the club,..but as you wish.
    Unfortunately even reputable authors make mistakes.
    As I have mentioned above, the quote you provided does not appear to be in the Kindle version.
    One can only assume it was removed, because it directly contradicts the other statements in the book, and it contradicts both known accounts Schwartz gave.

    Steve

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Elamarna View Post

      Michael, I have an issue, attempting to check on the quote you provide, I can't seem to locate it in my kindle copy.


      Could you provide the chapter it's in please, in case I am missing it.

      It appears to have been removed from the kindle edition.

      I can however find the following statements

      "A SECOND MAN CAME OUT of the doorway of the public-house a few doors off,"

      "The man tried to pull the woman into the street, turned her round and threw her down on the footway. She screamed three times but not very loudly. Schwartz, presumably to avoid getting too close to the confrontation, crossed the street and saw a second man lighting a pipe."

      "then the second man had come out of ‘the doorway of the public-house a few doors off’


      Steve


      It must have been removed from the hardback edition too Steve because I’ve just checked every index mention of Israel Schwartz. All that’s in Evan’s and Rumbelow are the two versions that we already have. From the police interview and then The Star. Strange.

      Regards

      Sir Herlock Sholmes.

      “A house of delusions is cheap to build but draughty to live in.”

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Michael W Richards View Post

        The quote I posted from reputable sources says that Pipeman came from the club,..but as you wish.... the post above isnt clear on where Pipeman is or was. It is not clear whether BSM continued crossing the street after pulling her in that direction then tossing Liz down, nor is it clear where Israel says the man on the "opposite side of the road" was. If Israel sees BSM and Liz outside the gates, then BSM tries to drag her into the street, then he is trying to pull her away from the gates and across the road, yes? Instead he throws her down on the pavement. Does he continue in that same direction, to cross the street? We dont know. But If so, then the man on the "opposite side of the road" is now the Pipeman outside the club, and since Israel apparently doesnt wish to interact with BSM, and BSM is still headed across the road, what side of the road would Israel move to to avoid him? The same side BSM is headed towards?...or the gate and club side, where "the man on the opposite side of the road" ..outside the club, is smoking a cigar. This has both Israel and Pipeman in the same direction from where BSM is. Hence the confusion as to whom "Lipski" was addressed.

        I dont pretend to have the answers and the direction that BSM takes after tossing Liz down isnt clearly articulated, but that might explain the statement attributed to a book by 2 of the most respected researchers in all of Ripperology. Accept that or not, its not my statement I quoted, so go ask the sources about it.
        The quote that you’ve posted isn’t in Evan’s and Rumbelow as far as I can see. If I’ve missed it please just point out where it is.
        Regards

        Sir Herlock Sholmes.

        “A house of delusions is cheap to build but draughty to live in.”

        Comment


        • First step:

          Sources 67 AND 68

          Comment


          • Originally posted by S.Brett View Post
            Thanks Karsten,

            So the sources quoted are

            67, appears to be the cook book

            68

            Cook, pp. 168–170; Evans and Rumbelow, p. 104; Fido, pp. 60–61​

            Although it's not clear if this reference applies to where Pipeman came from or the call of lipski.

            There is a second note n8

            "This outburst is believed to be an anti-semitic insult directed at either Schwartz or the unknown individual to exit the club, referencing a convicted murderer of Polish-Jewish heritage by this name who had been executed in 1887 for the poisoning murder of a young woman named Miriam Angel.[69]"

            Again no reference for Pipeman leaving the club.


            The quote Michael gave appears not to be in the 2013 kindle edition of Evans and Rumbelow, whichbi think is a copy of the 2010 print copy.
            I believe Herlock checked the 2006 edition.

            Unfortunately I do not have Fido or cook with me , or on kindle, so I cannot check where the source of from the club comes from.

            If anyone does have access to these books now, it would be interesting to know exactly what words they use, and if any source is provided.

            My issue here is solely that I am not aware of a third source of the Schwartz account, and would like to clarify this.


            Steve
            Last edited by Elamarna; 08-25-2023, 09:52 PM.

            Comment


            • Steven, I canīt find the "exited the club..." quote in SYI 2010 nor in Martin Fidoīs book (both print copies). Maybe it is in Andrew Cookīs "Case Closed" but this book I donīt have...

              Comment


              • Btw.: https://www.casebook.org/podcast/listen.html?id=89

                Comment


                • Originally posted by S.Brett View Post
                  Steven, I canīt find the "exited the club..." quote in SYI 2010 nor in Martin Fidoīs book (both print copies). Maybe it is in Andrew Cookīs "Case Closed" but this book I donīt have...
                  I do, but it's in storage in London.

                  Steve

                  Comment


                  • I will have a listen, I suspect this quote is from Cook. While i don't rate his book myself, it maybe there is a reference included somewhere.

                    Steve

                    Comment


                    • What time did pubs close in Metroplitan London in the Fall of 1888? Where could someone buy a drink at 12:30 am on Berner Street? Youve all scrambled to find the reference I quoted, and youve used other quotes to say Pipeman was seen exiting a pub. Consider those 2 questions. Im not saying it isnt possible that the quote was incorrect, I can only say I found it attributed to that publication and those authors, but again, where on Berner Street at 12:30am in 1888 could someone buy a drink?
                      Last edited by Michael W Richards; 08-25-2023, 10:27 PM.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by S.Brett View Post
                        Cheers Karsten.

                        Regards

                        Sir Herlock Sholmes.

                        “A house of delusions is cheap to build but draughty to live in.”

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Elamarna View Post

                          Thanks Karsten,

                          So the sources quoted are

                          67, appears to be the cook book

                          68

                          Cook, pp. 168–170; Evans and Rumbelow, p. 104; Fido, pp. 60–61​

                          Although it's not clear if this reference applies to where Pipeman came from or the call of lipski.

                          There is a second note n8

                          "This outburst is believed to be an anti-semitic insult directed at either Schwartz or the unknown individual to exit the club, referencing a convicted murderer of Polish-Jewish heritage by this name who had been executed in 1887 for the poisoning murder of a young woman named Miriam Angel.[69]"

                          Again no reference for Pipeman leaving the club.


                          The quote Michael gave appears not to be in the 2013 kindle edition of Evans and Rumbelow, whichbi think is a copy of the 2010 print copy.
                          I believe Herlock checked the 2006 edition.

                          Unfortunately I do not have Fido or cook with me , or on kindle, so I cannot check where the source of from the club comes from.

                          If anyone does have access to these books now, it would be interesting to know exactly what words they use, and if any source is provided.

                          My issue here is solely that I am not aware of a third source of the Schwartz account, and would like to clarify this.


                          Steve
                          I’ve just double-checked the 2006 Evans and Rumbelow p104, p105 and p106 Steve. Just the two versions. No mention of Pipeman coming from the club anywhere in the book.
                          Regards

                          Sir Herlock Sholmes.

                          “A house of delusions is cheap to build but draughty to live in.”

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Elamarna View Post

                            I do, but it's in storage in London.

                            Steve


                            Originally posted by Elamarna View Post

                            I will have a listen, I suspect this quote is from Cook. While i don't rate his book myself, it maybe there is a reference included somewhere.

                            Steve


                            There is a press report, "A man pursued... the man who gave a chase..." maybe someone thought that Pipeman was a member of the club... you will find it... good night Iīm tired...

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Michael W Richards View Post
                              What time did pubs close in Metroplitan London in the Fall of 1888? Where could someone buy a drink at 12:30 am on Berner Street? Youve all scrambled to find the reference I quoted, and youve used other quotes to say Pipeman was seen exiting a pub. Consider those 2 questions. Im not saying it isnt possible that the quote was incorrect, I can only say I found it attributed to that publication and those authors, but again, where on Berner Street at 12:30am in 1888 could someone buy a drink?

                              The 1872 licensing act set official closing time at midnight in towns, but it seems from various reports in the press at the time that Pubs were often open later than this.
                              Your question about where would be open on Berner appears to be classic whataboutery.
                              We are told by Schwartz that he saw the Pipeman leave the doorway of the beerhouse.
                              This was not questioned by the police, and
                              there appears to be no contemporary source to do so.

                              Now let's get to the crux of the matter Michael.

                              We have 2 known reports of the Schwartz account.

                              One is the official police report, the other is from the Star.

                              Neither report say that Pipeman came from the club.

                              Therefore any statement that claims Pipeman came from the Club must be questioned, if we want claims to stand up to any degree of scrutiny
                              An actual contemporary source is needed, that is basic historical methodology.

                              Yet it appears you disapprove of people doing this.

                              The quote you provided, appears not to be from the two authors you claimed.

                              Part of your previous argument on this was that you take the Evans and Rumbelow view over the views of others.
                              If however. the quote is NOT from those authors that argument fails.

                              You use terms such as scrambling about to find the quote. Such a term is used in a derogatory way, when all people want to do is to clarify the situation.

                              You then say alternative quotes have been provided, in a way that might suggest that those reports are equally questionable.

                              However, the quotes I provided were from the very book and authors you were claiming had said "exited from the club".

                              One quote was from the police report.
                              Another quote was from the Star.
                              The 3rd quote was the views of the two authors

                              Suddenly it seems the views of those reputable authors are to be treated in a different way to which you initial suggested.

                              The quote Herlock provided was of course from the Star.

                              My interest in this matter is not related to your theory, that lies were told, but to find if there actually is a 3rd source for the Schwartz account.




                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by S.Brett View Post







                                There is a press report, "A man pursued... the man who gave a chase..." maybe someone thought that Pipeman was a member of the club... you will find it... good night Iīm tired...
                                Yes, I am aware of that report, if anything it backs the account of Schwartz.
                                I can also understand why someone reading it could assume Pipeman came from the club.

                                Night

                                Steve

                                Comment

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