John Richardson

[Herlock Sholmes]

Whilst I’m not 100% certain that Strude was a JTR victim I also think it’s entirely possible that, if she was, the killer might have been disturbed before Diemschitz arrived. All it could have taken would have been someone exiting the side door (perhaps to use the outside loo) or perhaps someone like Sara Diemschitz in the kitchen might just have opened the door to let in some air. Anything like that might have spooked the killer.

[Trevor Marriott]

Whilst I’m not 100% certain that Strude was a JTR victim I also think it’s entirely possible that, if she was, the killer might have been disturbed before Diemschitz arrived. All it could have taken would have been someone exiting the side door (perhaps to use the outside loo) or perhaps someone like Sara Diemschitz in the kitchen might just have opened the door to let in some air. Anything like that might have spooked the killer.

But the location is different from all the other murders, this location was not secluded and not in the area of the other murders, the time factor is different, and many people walking about.

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Herlock Sholmes]

But the location is different from all the other murders, this location was not secluded and not in the area of the other murders, the time factor is different, and many people walking about.

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

Fair points Trevor. The location is one of the reasons that I'm not totally convinced that she was a ripper victim. Door at the side of the club, singing going on upstairs, around closing time, gateway with people possibly passing. Maybe, maybe not.

[The Rookie Detective]

Is there a chance that the man who threw Stride to the ground was Charles Le Grand and the man across the road with the pipe was Albert Bachert?

And when he calls out, he actually says "Lusk" or Luski" and NOT Lipski?

In an attempt for witnesses to believe that George Lusk was involved?

Albert Bachert was a Narcissistic fantasist who was alleged to have replaced Lusk as the head of the Whitechapel Vigilance committee; even though it had all but disbanded by then.
Charles Le Grand (Grant) was an aggressive enforcer with a history of violence and a convicted criminal, yet he also worked for the so-called Vigilance committee at the same time as Bachert.
Bachert also forged so-called ripper correspondences and essentially sent them to himself to try and convince others that the ripper was now focusing on him now that he had replaced Lusk. When in fact, he was self-perpetuating his own warped agenda and the police and press saw through him. He even claimed to have apprehended the real ripper as he was about to slay another woman and he single-handedly tackled the killer and caught him.
He lived in a fantasy world and IF you believe that the Ripper letters are fake, then Bachert is a good choice for the author of most of those. He was obsessed with the ripper and always tried to make himself present and part of the investigation.

And so could Bachert and Le Grand have been the 2 men seen shortly before Stride was murdered? And could they have trying to put Lusk in the frame, but it backfired because the witness heard Lipski and not Lusk?

Another random hypothesis but always good to flush these things out I feel


Thoughts please?

[The Rookie Detective]

Regarding Stride; I'm not of the opinion that she was an actual ripper victim and the whole "double event" is a mere coincidence.

Without the written correspondence mentioning the double event AND the term Jack the Ripper, then Stride is merely a victim of someone whom she had crossed.

If you believe the letters are really from the Ripper, then I'd say that Stride WAS a Ripper victim because the whole double event thing for me is TOO MUCH of a coincidence.

I think it also comes down to timing. For example, the ONLY reason why Stride is seen as a ripper victim is that she happened to be murdered on the SAME night as Eddowes and so it ties into the double event.
However, if Stride had been killed 2 days later or earlier, then she would never have made it onto the main canonical list.

Something similar applies to Alice McKenzie.

Based on her injuries, the ONLY reason why she isn't included in the canonical 5 is that she was murdered AFTER MJK. If she had been murdered before MJK, then McKenzie would be on the canonical list straight away because her murder bore striking similarities to Nichols.


Perspective, context and timing are everything

[JeffHamm]

But the location is different from all the other murders, this location was not secluded and not in the area of the other murders, the time factor is different, and many people walking about.

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

Hi Trevor,

That depends upon how one squints when looking at things though. A slight change of focus, and is Berner Street really any different in terms of "location" as the backyard of Hanbury Street, lots of people nearby, neighbors coming and going, only one escape route, etc. or Buck's Row, which was a location out in the open street so there's no seclusion there at all - and Mitre Square is again, out in the open, hardly any more secluded than the dark ally where Stride is murdered.

As for the time, given Eddowes is murdered less than an hour later, the time can't be said to be different - or if it is, then the time for Eddowes must also be different - but what's left to be different from? Nichols, whose killed around 3:30-3:40 type thing, which is only a couple hours earlier than Chapman at 5:20ish, and possibly Kelly somewhere around 3 am (based on the cries of murder - although the time for Kelly's murder could be just about anything really, so one can make it similar or different as they see fit).

And people were around at the other murders too. We've got a number of people who were out and about for the Kelly murder, many seeing her that night. Also, for Eddowes, there's Lawende and company, and Blenkinsop mentions people about in the Orange Market and there's people living in units overlooking the square, and Chapman's murder has people in the house, but also there is mention of people going about their business in the street and going to the market. Buck's row has a number of residences, and there's slaughter house just one street over where men are working, there's people on their way to work (Cross/Lechmere and Paul, for example), and so forth. London was busy at night, and there were always people coming and going, so the fact that some are singing in the building next door could be viewed as neither here nor there.

So while one can look at any individual crime and find things unique to it, on the whole, I find it hard to say that the Berner Street location, or time, or circumstances, are of a distinctly different character than the others.

- Jeff

[Lewis C]

Is there a chance that the man who threw Stride to the ground was Charles Le Grand and the man across the road with the pipe was Albert Bachert?

And when he calls out, he actually says "Lusk" or Luski" and NOT Lipski?

In an attempt for witnesses to believe that George Lusk was involved?

Albert Bachert was a Narcissistic fantasist who was alleged to have replaced Lusk as the head of the Whitechapel Vigilance committee; even though it had all but disbanded by then.
Charles Le Grand (Grant) was an aggressive enforcer with a history of violence and a convicted criminal, yet he also worked for the so-called Vigilance committee at the same time as Bachert.
Bachert also forged so-called ripper correspondences and essentially sent them to himself to try and convince others that the ripper was now focusing on him now that he had replaced Lusk. When in fact, he was self-perpetuating his own warped agenda and the police and press saw through him. He even claimed to have apprehended the real ripper as he was about to slay another woman and he single-handedly tackled the killer and caught him.
He lived in a fantasy world and IF you believe that the Ripper letters are fake, then Bachert is a good choice for the author of most of those. He was obsessed with the ripper and always tried to make himself present and part of the investigation.

And so could Bachert and Le Grand have been the 2 men seen shortly before Stride was murdered? And could they have trying to put Lusk in the frame, but it backfired because the witness heard Lipski and not Lusk?

Another random hypothesis but always good to flush these things out I feel


Thoughts please?

Hi RD,

This post made me think of some ideas that Tom Wescott has put forward. He has written about Le Grand as a Ripper suspect, theorized that Pipeman was Stride's killer, and believes that Stride was a Ripper victim. If you put all of that together, it adds up to Le Grand being Pipeman.

[Trevor Marriott]

Hi Trevor,

That depends upon how one squints when looking at things though. A slight change of focus, and is Berner Street really any different in terms of "location" as the backyard of Hanbury Street, lots of people nearby, neighbors coming and going, only one escape route, etc. or Buck's Row, which was a location out in the open street so there's no seclusion there at all - and Mitre Square is again, out in the open, hardly any more secluded than the dark ally where Stride is murdered.

But the comparison to Chapman does not stand up if Chapman was killed much earlier, and Stride was murdered almost on the main footpath at a time when it can be said that the streets were teeming with people.

I also forgot to mention that Stride was the only victim who was murdered south of Whitechapel Road another factor to consider

As for the time, given Eddowes is murdered less than an hour later, the time can't be said to be different - or if it is, then the time for Eddowes must also be different - but what's left to be different from? Nichols, whose killed around 3:30-3:40 type thing, which is only a couple hours earlier than Chapman at 5:20ish, and possibly Kelly somewhere around 3 am (based on the cries of murder - although the time for Kelly's murder could be just about anything really, so one can make it similar or different as they see fit).

Of course it makes a difference a lot of people who would have been out an hour before would have gone home so making the streets less crowded

And people were around at the other murders too. We've got a number of people who were out and about for the Kelly murder, many seeing her that night. Also, for Eddowes, there's Lawende and company, and Blenkinsop mentions people about in the Orange Market and there's people living in units overlooking the square, and Chapman's murder has people in the house, but also there is mention of people going about their business in the street and going to the market. Buck's row has a number of residences, and there's slaughter house just one street over where men are working, there's people on their way to work (Cross/Lechmere and Paul, for example), and so forth. London was busy at night, and there were always people coming and going, so the fact that some are singing in the building next door could be viewed as neither here nor there.

But there was not the volume of people in close proximity to the other murders as there was with Stride where is the evidence to show the streets were teeming with people in the Eddowes and Nichols murders. bearing in mind the time it would only take a killer to murder and mutilate and that is proven if the killer was disturbed by Lechmere and if Chapman was killed at an earlier time.

If Stride was a Ripper victim then it adds even more weight to my belief that the killer's motive was simply murder and mutilation as we see no evidence of any attempts to remove organs from Stride or Nicholls nor from any of the later victims if they are to be attributed to the same killer.

So while one can look at any individual crime and find things unique to it, on the whole, I find it hard to say that the Berner Street location, or time, or circumstances, are of a distinctly different character than the others.- Jeff

Thats your opinion

[Fleetwood Mac]

I think it also comes down to timing. For example, the ONLY reason why Stride is seen as a ripper victim is that she happened to be murdered on the SAME night as

Based on her injuries

I think it's more than mere timing.

I reckon the cut to Stride's throat may be a red herring, when we consider that the other murders necessitated more than one cut to the throat, which in turn suggests this wasn't necessarily the expert that is often assumed.

It's fair to say that we have to believe that Jack was interrupted in order to put Liz's death down to Jack. I think that is a better argument than the alternative, all things considered.

[Fleetwood Mac]

But the location is different from all the other murders, this location was not secluded and not in the area of the other murders, the time factor is different, and many people walking about.

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

I reckon it's unreasonable to assume that all of these murders would have followed the same suit, given there were many variables outside of Jack's control.

In fact, we know from modern day studies of serial killers that their habits and pattern of behaviour do not display such stringent rules.

In addition, we know Jack didn't either in terms of location, e.g. Polly versus Mary.

And, we don't know what time Annie and Mary were killed, so there is doubt as to the timings there.

And finally, Catherine was murdered around 1.45am at the latest. It's not outrageous to suggest that one hour earlier is well within Jack's 'timings'.

[Fleetwood Mac]

A slight change of focus, and is Berner Street really any different in terms of "location" as the backyard of Hanbury Street, lots of people nearby, neighbors coming and going, only one escape route, etc. or Buck's Row, which was a location out in the open street so there's no seclusion there at all - and Mitre Square is again, out in the open, hardly any more secluded than the dark ally where Stride is murdered.

The other thing about Dutfield's Yard is that there may have been more privacy than that which is sometimes assumed. This is what Louis had to say at the inquest:

I drove into the yard, both gates being wide open. It was rather dark there. All at once my pony shied at some object on the right. I looked to see what the object was, and observed that there was something unusual, but could not tell what. It was a dark object.

So, Louis was in the yard and right on top of Liz, close to enough to immediately turn to see an object upon his pony shying. Yet, Louis wouldn't have seen the object had it not been for his pony. Even then, with a close up view and being alerted to something by his pony, Louis couldn't tell what the object was without a match.

[Doctored Whatsit]

The other thing about Dutfield's Yard is that there may have been more privacy than that which is sometimes assumed. This is what Louis had to say at the inquest:

I drove into the yard, both gates being wide open. It was rather dark there. All at once my pony shied at some object on the right. I looked to see what the object was, and observed that there was something unusual, but could not tell what. It was a dark object.

So, Louis was in the yard and right on top of Liz, close to enough to immediately turn to see an object upon his pony shying. Yet, Louis wouldn't have seen the object had it not been for his pony. Even then, with a close up view and being alerted to something by his pony, Louis couldn't tell what the object was without a match.

There is little doubt that prostitutes could have been attracted to Dutfield's Yard because of the privacy afforded by the lack of any light. Given Louis D's description of the extent of the darkness, and with no reason to dispute it, how could JtR, if it was him, have successfully disembowelled Stride? I have always maintained that, if it was he, he may not have been interrupted, he just realised that he couldn't possibly complete his eviscerations without some nominal light.

[The Rookie Detective]

One thing that makes Strides murder particularly difficult is with regards to the time the killer needed.

If the only injury was a cut throat then the killer could have cut and gone in under 30 seconds.

If the man seen throwing Stride to the ground was in fact the man who killed her, then it's unlikely that Stride was a victim of JTR, unless there's a chance that JTR was more than one person i.e. a killer (who called out Lipski/Lusk etc...and a lookout (the man across the road smoking the pipe)

I find it very difficult to believe that the man who threw her to the floor was JTR because it was too public. The man who threw her to the floor was an enforcer/part of a gang/pimp character etc...

Could there be a scenario where the man who was smoking the pipe WASN'T with the man who threw Stride to the floor and even though he was seen leaving, could HE have been the killer?

Could the man with the pipe have retraced his steps AFTER the man who threw Stride to the floor had left and then instead of helping her up...he bends down as she's laying on the floor and slits her throat.

I.e. did the real killer stand across the road watching Stride as she was thrown to the floor and then went to leave after the other man shouted Lipski! - If Stride was already on the floor after being thrown to the floor, then there's a chance she never got up again.

But the man seen throwing her to the floor just doesn't fit the ripper at all.

Thoughts?

[c.d.]

If Stride was already on the floor after being thrown to the floor, then there's a chance she never got up again.

I assume you mean ground not floor but regardless her body was not found where last seen by Schwartz. So it would seem she did get up again or was dragged but there is no evidence for the latter.

c.d.

[Fleetwood Mac]

There is little doubt that prostitutes could have been attracted to Dutfield's Yard because of the privacy afforded by the lack of any light. Given Louis D's description of the extent of the darkness, and with no reason to dispute it, how could JtR, if it was him, have successfully disembowelled Stride? I have always maintained that, if it was he, he may not have been interrupted, he just realised that he couldn't possibly complete his eviscerations without some nominal light.

Aye, at the inquest Louis stated that he had actually driven past Liz's body before getting off his cart, which begs the question: would a club member coming out of the club at some time earlier have seen the body?

I hadn't considered the idea that he simply realised he didn't have the light and so left. 'Seems as plausible as the other suggestions to me.