John Richardson

[Lewis C]

As for Louis, we have numerous witnesses that gave statements that cannot be reconciled with his arrival "precisely" at 1. We have Mrs Mortimer at her door "nearly the whole time" between 12:30 and 1..only going inside, presumably to sleep, at 1...she saw nothing, we have the young couple who were interviewed and saw nothing including Israel Schwartz, a Pipe smoking fella and Liz Stride, we have Eagle and Kozebrodski suggesting that they went for help before 1am, we have that PC you mentioned saying he was summoned there before 1. There are other members who said they were alerted to the dead woman about 20 minutes to 1....I beg to differ with you that Louis's statement of the time reconciles with all the other accounts. It really doesnt.

Hi Michael,

There are 2 different newspaper versions of when Mortimer was at her door. One says what you said, and the other says that she heard the heavy tramp of a policeman pass her house at just before 12:45, and she immediately went to her door at that time, and stayed at her door for 10 minutes. Either case suggests to me that Diemshitz passed after she was finished at her door. Otherwise, she surely would have seen him while she was at her door. Under your scenario, I would think that there would also have been commotion around the murder scene when Mortimer was at her door, but she didn't see any.

This passage from Wescott's Ripper Confidential might be helpful here: "Morris Eagle returned to the club ... and entered by the side kitchen door via the gateway. He estimated the time as 12:40 and this was loosely corroborated by Sarah Diemshitz and others in the club. He was the last person to enter before Diemshitz' return." So this at least indicates that Diemshitz returned sometime after 12:40, and probably also that the murder occurred after 12:40, because I would think that Eagle would have seen Stride's body if she had already been murdered.

[Dickere]

Actually, this is how John Richardson should have been questioned:

Q: You're pissing us about, Richardson. And if you don't stop right now, you're going to find yourself in a world of pain like you can't imagine. Now, you have one chance left, so listen. I'm putting to you that the reason you didn't see a mutilated corpse in the yard at 4.45 is that you weren't in the yard at 4.45. You didn't go there. Am I right?

A: Uh, yes...

Mark D.

Put your trousers on son, you're nicked.

[Michael W Richards]

Hi Michael,

There are 2 different newspaper versions of when Mortimer was at her door. One says what you said, and the other says that she heard the heavy tramp of a policeman pass her house at just before 12:45, and she immediately went to her door at that time, and stayed at her door for 10 minutes. Either case suggests to me that Diemshitz passed after she was finished at her door. Otherwise, she surely would have seen him while she was at her door. Under your scenario, I would think that there would also have been commotion around the murder scene when Mortimer was at her door, but she didn't see any.

This passage from Wescott's Ripper Confidential might be helpful here: "Morris Eagle returned to the club ... and entered by the side kitchen door via the gateway. He estimated the time as 12:40 and this was loosely corroborated by Sarah Diemshitz and others in the club. He was the last person to enter before Diemshitz' return." So this at least indicates that Diemshitz returned sometime after 12:40, and probably also that the murder occurred after 12:40, because I would think that Eagle would have seen Stride's body if she had already been murdered.

Hi Lewis,

As you acknowledged Fanny also is quoted as saying this "I was standing at the door of my house nearly the whole time between half-past twelve and one o'clock this (Sunday) morning, and did not notice anything unusual. I had just gone indoors, and was preparing to go to bed, when I heard a commotion outside, and immediately ran out, thinking that there was another row at the Socialists' Club close by." Evening News Oct 1st

What isnt mentioned is that the young couple seen on the street by Mortimer, and likely Brown again at 12:45, were interviewed and said they saw no activity on the street. Fanny did see them though., and she saw Goldstein. She didnt see Wess leave though. Which makes me think that at around 12:35 she may have been indoors. She stated she was at her door "off and on" for that half hour.

I dont dispute Eagle arriving back to the club at 12:40. I dont dispute Kozebrodski arriving back at the club at "half past 12". I do dispute Diemshitz arriving precisely at 1 though, and I do dispute, according to his story, that the first people sent out for help were about 5 minutes after he arrived. Check the police statements and youll see one arrived, with Eagle, just before 1. And youll see that Issac, and Heschberg, stated they were alerted to the body around 12:40.

You see I dont trust the witnesses from the club, they were known as Anarchists to the Police so how this event was perceived meant everything to their continued presence there. And I think the differences in their stories is due to some not having been given the "official story" that they wanted used. Like Issac for one. He says he left, by himself, just after being summoned to the alley, by Louis, at around 12:40. See that in any "official" story by club staffers? He says he saw Eagle and the police arrive at the gates around 1 as he returned.

I have lots of data on this murder and witness statements and timings, its one of the alledged Ripper crimes I believe is mistakenly included in a Canonical Group. But Ive taken too much space on this thread for anything more here.

[Lewis C]

Hi Lewis,

As you acknowledged Fanny also is quoted as saying this "I was standing at the door of my house nearly the whole time between half-past twelve and one o'clock this (Sunday) morning, and did not notice anything unusual. I had just gone indoors, and was preparing to go to bed, when I heard a commotion outside, and immediately ran out, thinking that there was another row at the Socialists' Club close by." Evening News Oct 1st

What isnt mentioned is that the young couple seen on the street by Mortimer, and likely Brown again at 12:45, were interviewed and said they saw no activity on the street. Fanny did see them though., and she saw Goldstein. She didnt see Wess leave though. Which makes me think that at around 12:35 she may have been indoors. She stated she was at her door "off and on" for that half hour.

I dont dispute Eagle arriving back to the club at 12:40. I dont dispute Kozebrodski arriving back at the club at "half past 12". I do dispute Diemshitz arriving precisely at 1 though, and I do dispute, according to his story, that the first people sent out for help were about 5 minutes after he arrived. Check the police statements and youll see one arrived, with Eagle, just before 1. And youll see that Issac, and Heschberg, stated they were alerted to the body around 12:40.

You see I dont trust the witnesses from the club, they were known as Anarchists to the Police so how this event was perceived meant everything to their continued presence there. And I think the differences in their stories is due to some not having been given the "official story" that they wanted used. Like Issac for one. He says he left, by himself, just after being summoned to the alley, by Louis, at around 12:40. See that in any "official" story by club staffers? He says he saw Eagle and the police arrive at the gates around 1 as he returned.

I have lots of data on this murder and witness statements and timings, its one of the alledged Ripper crimes I believe is mistakenly included in a Canonical Group. But Ive taken too much space on this thread for anything more here.

I guess I need to study this part f the case more, because this is the first I've heard that 2 witnesses said they were alerted to the body at around 12:40. It's a very important point if true. Since Diemshutz' arrival at 1:00 is fairly widely accepted, it must be the case that many reject the reliability of their testimony. But I'll look into it further. You're welcome to refer me to a source.

[Michael W Richards]

I guess I need to study this part f the case more, because this is the first I've heard that 2 witnesses said they were alerted to the body at around 12:40. It's a very important point if true. Since Diemshutz' arrival at 1:00 is fairly widely accepted, it must be the case that many reject the reliability of their testimony. But I'll look into it further. You're welcome to refer me to a source.

Its actually more than 2. Kozebrodski, Heschberg, and alledgedly a man named Gillen. All who came out from inside the club..which certainly had a clock visible. Issac says he came back at 12:3o and about "10 minutes later" heard that people were in the passageway over a dead woman. If you take them at face value, then the policeman who said he was at the gates just before 1 was likely accurate, instead of incorrect, which people believe who dont accept those three timings as accurate. Interesting to note that this all happens at the same time Eagle says he returned to the club after seeing his date home. Did he walk into the situation? Remember, he says he "couldnt be sure" a body was not in that passageway at that time. I dont see how he might be ambiguous on that point.

And then you have Fanny and the young couple, none of whom saw or heard anything in the streets at the time Israel says he saw 3 people, including the soon to be victim...who by Blackwells estimate, might be cut as early as 12:46.

I would suggest reading all the press on this murder here in the Press section, youll find all the timing and inconsistencies are there.

Lastly on this, is it reasonable to assume that when the victim is found on the property, that employees of the club would consider what is to be said to the police? Remember, these men were considered essentially anarchists, which is the term that was used when categorizing Fenians also.

[Lewis C]

Its actually more than 2. Kozebrodski, Heschberg, and alledgedly a man named Gillen. All who came out from inside the club..which certainly had a clock visible. Issac says he came back at 12:3o and about "10 minutes later" heard that people were in the passageway over a dead woman. If you take them at face value, then the policeman who said he was at the gates just before 1 was likely accurate, instead of incorrect, which people believe who dont accept those three timings as accurate. Interesting to note that this all happens at the same time Eagle says he returned to the club after seeing his date home. Did he walk into the situation? Remember, he says he "couldnt be sure" a body was not in that passageway at that time. I dont see how he might be ambiguous on that point.

And then you have Fanny and the young couple, none of whom saw or heard anything in the streets at the time Israel says he saw 3 people, including the soon to be victim...who by Blackwells estimate, might be cut as early as 12:46.

I would suggest reading all the press on this murder here in the Press section, youll find all the timing and inconsistencies are there.

Lastly on this, is it reasonable to assume that when the victim is found on the property, that employees of the club would consider what is to be said to the police? Remember, these men were considered essentially anarchists, which is the term that was used when categorizing Fenians also.

OK, when I get a chance, I'll check out the Press section on this.

[Michael W Richards]

OK, when I get a chance, I'll check out the Press section on this.

I forgot to mention one other source, not sure if its still available here.....Lynn Cates, an esteemed member here had the late November edition of the Arbeter Fraint, the paper that was published by Wess from the printing office in the yard... at the end of a row of small cottage-like accommodation, translated into English. The paper stated that "at approximately a quarter to 1" a dead woman was discovered by the gates in the passageway. So now you have 4 accounts of discovery of Stride at or about 12:40-12:45. The same time Israel says he saw Stride on the street, and Brown says he saw Stride at the corner, the same time that Eagle says he entered the passageway, the same time Lave says he was at the gates, and a full 15-20 minutes before Louis says he even arrived to make the discovery.

Ive gone over all the press and the statements for this murder over and over again and I can tell you that the stories and times given by Louis, Mrs D, Israel, Lave and Morris seem to agree with each other, but not with a group of others. Including the PC who says he was summoned and arrived at the gates "just before 1".

Interesting that the ones that agree with the later discovery either worked at the club or lived in the passageway. All of them derive some sort of benefit from that club. All of them stand to lose something if the police believed the club had something to do with this murder. Which I believe is why the statements sound something like Sgt Schultz from Hogans Heros....."I see Nuthink, ...NuthinK".

[c.d.]

All of them derive some sort of benefit from that club. All of them stand to lose something if the police believed the club had something to do with this murder.

But we are not talking about Wall Street investment bankers or partners in a huge New York law firm here. More like making french fries at McDonald's. It's reasonable to assume that they would not want the club to close but an equally viable approach to what you are suggesting would have been to say hey, the police hate our guts and will use any excuse they can find to shut us down so let's not give them one. Let's cooperate fully as best we can.

Can we say with certainty that that is what they did? No, but that approach seems just as reasonable as trying to be slick with the police in a murder investigation with all of the consequences that entails.

c.d.

[c.d.]

The really big problem with a club conspiracy is that it does not ensure with 100% certainty that the club remains open. It would be a gamble. If the police believe the club to be obstructing them in their investigation it could blow up in the faces of club members.

Having the club close = bad

Having the club close and ending up in jail for obstructing the investigation = worse.

c.d.

[Michael W Richards]

All of them derive some sort of benefit from that club. All of them stand to lose something if the police believed the club had something to do with this murder.

But we are not talking about Wall Street investment bankers or partners in a huge New York law firm here. More like making french fries at McDonald's. It's reasonable to assume that they would not want the club to close but an equally viable approach to what you are suggesting would have been to say hey, the police hate our guts and will use any excuse they can find to shut us down so let's not give them one. Let's cooperate fully as best we can.

Can we say with certainty that that is what they did? No, but that approach seems just as reasonable as trying to be slick with the police in a murder investigation with all of the consequences that entails.

c.d.

Hi cd, ....so, you object to a post of mine, whodathunkit. What you seem to believe is that the club members in question would fear repercussions from the authorities if they discovered they lied....I would like to remind you that some of these same individuals are arrested in the spring of 89 for attacking the police with clubs in that same yard. They didnt fear reprisal, they feared a suggestion that the club had something to do with Strides murder. I would also suggest since we know that some cigarette makers in the cottages in the passageway said they were awake at the time when questioned, and when you consider that Leon Goldstein who passed the gates around 12:55 as seen by Fanny, had a bag similar to a doctors bag full of empty cigarette cartons, perhaps the reason he looked in then hurried past is because he saw what was happening at the gate entrance. Or maybe he was shooed along. I believe he was likely there to drop off the empty cartons to the cigarette makers in the passageway.

By the way, I dont neccesarily believe any club member or staff killed Liz, I think its more likely a security guy, hired when they thought William Morris was speaking that night...(which got cancelled and then Eagle stepped in), after receiving threats about Morris speaking there. Security guy sees Liz loitering around the gates inside the passage around 12:35. He approaches her...maybe knew she did streetwalking when needing money, hits on her, backs her into the wall and pokes her roughly in the shoulder area, she breaks free, calls him a name and turns to head out into the street again. To wait for?...maybe shes there to clean the club after the meeting? Maybe a date? She had been "at work among the Jews" for weeks prior to this. Anyway, he grabs her by the scarf from behind, twists it and pulls her back off balance, and as she falls he slides a knife under her throat.

Supporting evidence?

• Liz Strides dress, her breath mints and her "good evening wear".
• Unseen on the street after 12:35 (if Israel didnt see her or wasnt there)
• Bruises on front of her shoulders
• Twisted scarf nicked by knife
• Blackwells suggestion that she may have been cut "while falling".
• Found in same position as when dropped

Cue Louis, cue Morris. Call into the club for help. Cue Issac. Send Issac out alone to find police, send Morris out, Louis goes out in other direction with Issacs. (Issac K said to police within an hour of the discovery that he was sent out alone, so someone named Issacs went with Louis. No mention to police that Issac K was sent out alone...he said...."I was in this club last night. I came in about half-past six in the evening. About twenty minutes to one this morning Mr. Diemschitz called me out to the yard. He told me there was something in the yard, and told me to come and see what it was. When we had got outside he struck a match, and when we looked down on the ground we could see a long stream of blood. It was running down the gutter from the direction of the gate, and reached to the back door of the club. I should think there was blood in the gutter for a distance of five or six yards. I went to look for a policeman at the request of Diemschitz or some other member of the club, but I took the direction towards Grove-street and could not find one. I afterwards went into the Commercial-road along with Eagle, and found two officers."

There is not one thing I suggested, other than a possible culprit, that isnt supported by evidence and statements. Excluding of course the staff members I mentioned..they have one matching story about timing, everyone else has another matching story that takes place 15-20 minutes before theirs. And the reason Fanny didnt see Louis is because he arrived much earlier... when she may have been inside, not like the last 10 minutes of the hour, where she said she was at the door for that full period. Its why she see Goldstein hastily slide past. She is cut close to 12:40 and the policeman arrives with Eagle and Issac.."just before 1". Its why Blackwells asst Johnson can be there around 1:10. "At about 1.05 or 1.10am on 30th September, Johnston received a call from Constable 436H"

I know this isnt the correct thread to address this, so my apologies to the people participating. Sometimes you have to spell out things a bit to help others get the gist.

[Michael W Richards]

Sorry, I added to the above and it wouldnt let me edit or save the post.....so I reposted....

......

All of them derive some sort of benefit from that club. All of them stand to lose something if the police believed the club had something to do with this murder.

But we are not talking about Wall Street investment bankers or partners in a huge New York law firm here. More like making french fries at McDonald's. It's reasonable to assume that they would not want the club to close but an equally viable approach to what you are suggesting would have been to say hey, the police hate our guts and will use any excuse they can find to shut us down so let's not give them one. Let's cooperate fully as best we can.

Can we say with certainty that that is what they did? No, but that approach seems just as reasonable as trying to be slick with the police in a murder investigation with all of the consequences that entails.

c.d.

Hi cd, ....so, you object to a post of mine, whodathunkit. What you seem to believe is that the club members in question would fear repercussions from the authorities if they discovered they lied....I would like to remind you that some of these same individuals are arrested in the spring of 89 for attacking the police with clubs in that same yard. They didnt fear reprisal, they feared a suggestion that the club had something to do with Strides murder. I would also suggest since we know that some cigarette makers in the cottages in the passageway said they were awake at the time when questioned, and when you consider that Leon Goldstein who passed the gates around 12:55 as seen by Fanny, had a bag similar to a doctors bag full of empty cigarette cartons, perhaps the reason he looked in then hurried past is because he saw what was happening at the gate entrance. Or maybe he was shooed along. I believe he was likely there to drop off the empty cartons to the cigarette makers in the passageway.

By the way, I dont neccesarily believe any club member or staff killed Liz, I think its more likely a security guy, hired when they thought William Morris was speaking that night...(which got cancelled and then Eagle stepped in), after receiving threats about Morris speaking there. Security guy sees Liz loitering around the gates inside the passage around 12:35. He approaches her...maybe knew she did streetwalking when needing money, hits on her, backs her into the wall and pokes her roughly in the shoulder area, she breaks free, calls him a name and turns to head out into the street again. To wait for?...maybe shes there to clean the club after the meeting? Maybe a date? She had been "at work among the Jews" for weeks prior to this. Anyway, he grabs her by the scarf from behind, twists it and pulls her back off balance, and as she falls he slides a knife under her throat.

Supporting evidence?

• Liz Strides dress, her breath mints and her "good evening wear".
• Unseen on the street after 12:35 (if Israel didnt see her or wasnt there)
• Bruises on front of her shoulders
• Twisted scarf nicked by knife
• Blackwells suggestion that she may have been cut "while falling".
• Found in same position as when dropped

Cue Louis, cue Morris. Call into the club for help. Cue Issac. Send Issac out alone to find police, send Morris out, Louis goes out in other direction with Issacs. (Issac K said to police within an hour of the discovery that he was sent out alone, so someone named Issacs went with Louis. No mention to police that Issac K was sent out alone...he said...."I was in this club last night. I came in about half-past six in the evening. About twenty minutes to one this morning Mr. Diemschitz called me out to the yard. He told me there was something in the yard, and told me to come and see what it was. When we had got outside he struck a match, and when we looked down on the ground we could see a long stream of blood. It was running down the gutter from the direction of the gate, and reached to the back door of the club. I should think there was blood in the gutter for a distance of five or six yards. I went to look for a policeman at the request of Diemschitz or some other member of the club, but I took the direction towards Grove-street and could not find one. I afterwards went into the Commercial-road along with Eagle, and found two officers."

There is not one thing I suggested, other than a possible culprit, that isnt supported by evidence and statements. Excluding of course the staff members I mentioned..they have one matching story about timing, everyone else has another matching story that takes place 15-20 minutes before theirs. And the reason Fanny didnt see Louis is because he arrived much earlier... when she may have been inside, not like the last 10 minutes of the hour, where she said she was at the door for that full period. Its why she see Goldstein hastily slide past. She is cut close to 12:40 and the policeman arrives with Eagle and Issac.."just before 1". Its why Blackwells asst Johnson can be there around 1:10. "At about 1.05 or 1.10am on 30th September, Johnston received a call from Constable 436H". IF Louis did arrive at 1 like he said, and he goes in to check his wife, goes upstairs to get help, sends people out to look for police, how long would that take? How long would it take for Eagle to find a cop after heading out for help? IF Louis arrived at "precisely" 1, as he emphasized, how could Johnson have heard of this and still been in the passageway by 1:10? Eagle would first have to go out, locate the policeman... then #436H had to reach the asst....who then had to dress quickly and get down to the location. It would take more than 10 minutes for all that to happen. But if Louis arrives at 1, then Johnson wouldnt even get the call until after 1:10, let alone be there before Blackwell at 1:16.

Now, look at this objectively. Louis could not have arrived at 1 and still have the call inside for help, the search started for police help, the search for police, the return after searching with the policeman, the call to Johnson, and have Johnson there at 1:10 and Blackwell at 1:16. Its impossible.

I know this isnt the correct thread to address this, so my apologies to the people participating. Sometimes you have to spell out things a bit to help others get the gist.

[c.d.]

Hi cd, ....so, you object to a post of mine, whodathunkit.

I wouldn't necessarily call it an objection. I was merely attempting to flesh it out a bit and look at all possibilities.

c.d.

[Michael W Richards]

Hi cd, ....so, you object to a post of mine, whodathunkit.

I wouldn't necessarily call it an objection. I was merely attempting to flesh it out a bit and look at all possibilities.

c.d.

Generally I prefer not to have a long diatribe defending a post I made, but I think in this case it would benefit many people, maybe yourself, to have the idea laid out completely with some explanation. If you read my post (as I said I duplicated it because I added something then couldnt save it), you will see that not only does an earlier discovery make sense, it fits all the relevant timings, excluding ONLY the staff employees. Which is my point. Louis could not have arrived at 1. Why some people want to say Louis, the club steward and Eagle, the clubs speaker..both paid by the club...are more trustworthy than everyone else is beyond me, but as Ive shown,.. Louis arriving then first discovering the body at 1 is impossible. All other accounts would have to be wrong for Louis and Morris to be right. The club witnesses, Fanny, the young couple, the police, the medical personelle......

[c.d.]

Were really way off topic here and hijacking this thread which is something I don't like to do but since we are here (apologies to anyone wanting to discuss John Richardson.

Assuming for the sake of argument that all of your points above are correct, what is the conclusion you are trying to make?

c.d.

[JeffHamm]

Sorry for adding to the rabbit hole of the Stride case that it appears we've fallen into for a moment, but for those interested, an English translation of the Arbeter Fraint article on the Stride case was posted ages ago by FrankO (link to that post here).

I've just copied and pasted the text below, though, for those interested in seeing what the article said:

“Not long ago, the blood of the slaughtered women dried up from the Whitechapel streets, and once again the cold stones of this neighborhood were warmed by the fresh blood of two other women sacrificed by the hand of an unnatural person. These two unfortunate women were cut up in the same way as the first four.
What interests us most about the latest double murder is that the first of them occurred near the door of our club and that many of us saw the still half-warm body of the unfortunate woman. Here we will give an account of everything that we know about the double murder and mainly about the first one, which was the closest one to us.
The first murder occurred on Saturday night about a quarter to one. That evening there was a discussion in the club: “Should a Jew be a Socialist?” The hall was packed and the discussion was very lively. The debate went on until approximately eleven o’clock. At about 12 o’clock all the non-members scattered, and about twenty of the members remained in the club. These same [members] created a choir and sang various songs, for the most part, Russian.”

In FrankO's post he indicates that the above section is followed by another relevant point, which is this statement:

“At about one o’clock the steward of the club, Comrade Louis Dimshits, came with his cart from the market.”

So, the A.F.'s account places the murder at 12:45ish, but it places the discovery by Diemshitz at 1:00ish (that's a pretty conventional time line, with the murder occuring some time prior to her discovery, and would fit well with Schwartz's statements. It would contradict those who believe it was Diemshitz's arrival that spooked JtR into hiding then leaving, which would place both the murder and the discovery at 1:00ish).

So, while that doesn't change the other statements Michael mentions that suggest the discovery was earlier than 1o'clock, I don't think one should include the A.F. as having made such a statement.

- Jeff