John Richardson

[FISHY1118]

I know I was just merely reiterating.

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

No. Not moved after death to another spot to then mutilat.

Thanks for your response, Fishy, but my question was really rhetorical.

There has never been any evidence of any of the bodies having been moved.

[FISHY1118]

No. Not moved after death to another spot to then mutilat.

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

No, not really. Im just suggesting that hearing a voice from the other side of the fence doesnt mean that the source of the voice was from the exact spot where she is cut. If he begins strangling her after they descend the steps it might mean she drops to the ground in someplace close to but not on the specific spot she is later found in. He might have moved her from the bottom of the steps and positioned her at that time. Hence the "thud" heard on his second outing.

Is there any evidence that the victim's body was moved in any of the other murders in the same series?

[FISHY1118]

No, not really. Im just suggesting that hearing a voice from the other side of the fence doesnt mean that the source of the voice was from the exact spot where she is cut. If he begins strangling her after they descend the steps it might mean she drops to the ground in someplace close to but not on the specific spot she is later found in. He might have moved her from the bottom of the steps and positioned her at that time. Hence the "thud" heard on his second outing.

Ok , But that still a long pause between the ''drop to the ground'' and when the killer decides to move her body into the position she was found.

That would mean a estimated 3/4 minutes he waited to move her for Cadosch to hear the ''Thud'' , an unlikely senario im afraid, i just dont see it happening that way.

[Michael W Richards]

So your saying she was choked somewhere else in the yard and then dragged/ carried to the spot where the mutilations were carried out thus the murderer knocking her against the fence for Cadosch to hear ?

No, not really. Im just suggesting that hearing a voice from the other side of the fence doesnt mean that the source of the voice was from the exact spot where she is cut. If he begins strangling her after they descend the steps it might mean she drops to the ground in someplace close to but not on the specific spot she is later found in. He might have moved her from the bottom of the steps and positioned her at that time. Hence the "thud" heard on his second outing.

[FISHY1118]

I see where you might be missing my real point, if the murder began at around 5:15 ish when Cadosche hears the voice, we cant be sure exactly where in that yard..specifically...they were. He might not be cutting her precisely where that attack is presumed to have begun, he might just have been choking her. If she collapsed against the fence, she would need to be moved to where she is found. The fact that she is found so close to that fence...so close that some spray from her throat cuts splattered on the fence panels, might be an indication that he was not at her side side at that moment. If the spray hits the fence, that means he wasnt in between the source and destination. Thats why I believe some negotiating of the unconscious womans body was called for. Its that flat on the back knees spread pose that for me is one of the most important elements to use to help identify if this is also Pollys killer, and also Kates.

It shows us his desire to have ease of access when doing what he wanted to do.

So your saying she was choked somewhere else in the yard and then dragged/ carried to the spot where the mutilations were carried out thus the murderer knocking her against the fence for Cadosch to hear ?

[Michael W Richards]

Thats one possibility, however

The only problem there is, the injuries inflicted on Chapman were all done from her right side. There was no need for the killer to move her body from the position which she was found, or for him to be between Chapman and the fence to make the noise heard by Cadosch.

I see where you might be missing my real point, if the murder began at around 5:15 ish when Cadosche hears the voice, we cant be sure exactly where in that yard..specifically...they were. He might not be cutting her precisely where that attack is presumed to have begun, he might just have been choking her. If she collapsed against the fence, she would need to be moved to where she is found. The fact that she is found so close to that fence...so close that some spray from her throat cuts splattered on the fence panels, might be an indication that he was not at her side side at that moment. If the spray hits the fence, that means he wasnt in between the source and destination. Thats why I believe some negotiating of the unconscious womans body was called for. Its that flat on the back knees spread pose that for me is one of the most important elements to use to help identify if this is also Pollys killer, and also Kates.

It shows us his desire to have ease of access when doing what he wanted to do.

[FISHY1118]

I think its quite probable that the killer needed to move the body a bit to access what he wanted, the thud might have been him repositioning the body or by himself, as he did move her about. The position she is found in almost certainly is one that the killer created.

Thats one possibility, however

The only problem there is, the injuries inflicted on Chapman were all done from her right side. There was no need for the killer to move her body from the position which she was found, or for him to be between Chapman and the fence to make the noise heard by Cadosch.

[Michael W Richards]

If the murder indeed started at 5.15 am ,its highly unlikely to have been Annie Chapmans body hitting up against the fence as some have claimed .

I think its quite probable that the killer needed to move the body a bit to access what he wanted, the thud might have been him repositioning the body or by himself, as he did move her about. The position she is found in almost certainly is one that the killer created.

[FISHY1118]

I think objectively the murder could have begun as early as when Cadosche heard the voice, he guesses it was at 5:15 when he rose. He heard only a fence "touch" later. Just sayin.

From Casebook-Witness files.."Cadosch testified that on the morning of 8th September 1888, he got up at 5.15am and went into the yard, presumably to relieve himself. On going back to the house, he heard a voice say "No!" from behind the fence which divided the backyards of Nos.27 and 29 Hanbury Street. A few minutes later, he needed to use the yard again, whereupon he heard something touch the fence from the other side. His suspicions were not aroused as he had occasionally heard people in the yard of No.29 at that time of the morning. He did not hear the rustling of clothes and he did not look to see what was causing the noises."

If the murder indeed started at 5.15 am ,its highly unlikely to have been Annie Chapmans body hitting up against the fence as some have claimed .

[FISHY1118]

There still no way of knowing what Cadosch meant when he claimed what side the ''NO ''came from .

Its still an ambiguious and unclear statement imo.

[JeffHamm]

I think objectively the murder could have begun as early as when Cadosche heard the voice, he guesses it was at 5:15 when he rose. He heard only a fence "touch" later. Just sayin.

From Casebook-Witness files.."Cadosch testified that on the morning of 8th September 1888, he got up at 5.15am and went into the yard, presumably to relieve himself. On going back to the house, he heard a voice say "No!" from behind the fence which divided the backyards of Nos.27 and 29 Hanbury Street. A few minutes later, he needed to use the yard again, whereupon he heard something touch the fence from the other side. His suspicions were not aroused as he had occasionally heard people in the yard of No.29 at that time of the morning. He did not hear the rustling of clothes and he did not look to see what was causing the noises."

Hi Michael,

It could have started then, though in my opinion the information we have is not sufficient to state it any more strongly than that. Cadosche doesn't give us any information about how the "No" was said, but as his suspicions were not aroused, I think we can draw the conclusion with some confidence that it wasn't said with any sort of distress. As such, I tend to think the "No" was part of some sort of ongoing conversation prior to the onset of the attack. I suppose it is possible that she was rejecting some sort of offer or request, and this rejection is what JtR reacted to, but that is getting even deeper into speculation territory. I could be wrong, of course, just stating how things appear to me.

He also described the noise against the fence as if something fell against it, while the above summary just mentions the sudden touching part of his statement. Personally I favour the transcript formats as they more closely capture what the witness actually said, rather than summary reports which present the reporter's interpretation of what was said, but it is good to examine all of them, particularly as we may interpret the witness's statements differently from how someone of the time might due to subtle changes in language use. What is clear, though, is that there is no ambiguity in his testimony as to where that sound came from, while some have argued that he is not sure the "No" came from the backyard of #29. His phrasing about that, though, tends to read more like he wasn't sure of which side of the backyard of #29 the speaker was standing (i.e. right by the fence, or perhaps on the far side), but it can also be read as him having less conviction the speaker was in the back yard. I don't think, however, that can be applied to the noise against the fence, which by itself is sufficient to put a living person in the backyard of #29 at that time. I find it hard to accept that someone other than the killer could be that person, and then not report what they found. I also find it a stretch to suggest that the cause of the noise was something other than a person, like the sound of a crate shifting. There are no reports of crates against the fence when describing the crime scene after all.

From the press transcript of his testimony:

Albert Cadosch [Cadoche] deposed: I live at 27, Hanbury-street, and am a carpenter. 27 is next door to 29, Hanbury-street. On Saturday, Sept. 8, I got up about a quarter past five in the morning, and went into the yard. It was then about twenty minutes past five, I should think. As I returned towards the back door I heard a voice say "No" just as I was going through the door. It was not in our yard, but I should think it came from the yard of No. 29. I, however, cannot say on which side it came from. I went indoors, but returned to the yard about three or four minutes afterwards. While coming back I heard a sort of a fall against the fence which divides my yard from that of 29. It seemed as if something touched the fence suddenly.

- Jeff

[Michael W Richards]

There are all sorts of ways to explain the unknown, and things like the above are just some of the ways. In the end, though, the witnesses and the medical testimony all converge on a ToD of 5:25 ish as being possible, with no modifications beyond taking into account the error associated with such information. That isn't proof that the murder had to be at/around 5:25, of course, but it does mean that the evidence we have is all consistent with a murder at/around 5:25, and that there is no objective reason to simply dismiss any of the evidence.

- Jeff

I think objectively the murder could have begun as early as when Cadosche heard the voice, he guesses it was at 5:15 when he rose. He heard only a fence "touch" later. Just sayin.

From Casebook-Witness files.."Cadosch testified that on the morning of 8th September 1888, he got up at 5.15am and went into the yard, presumably to relieve himself. On going back to the house, he heard a voice say "No!" from behind the fence which divided the backyards of Nos.27 and 29 Hanbury Street. A few minutes later, he needed to use the yard again, whereupon he heard something touch the fence from the other side. His suspicions were not aroused as he had occasionally heard people in the yard of No.29 at that time of the morning. He did not hear the rustling of clothes and he did not look to see what was causing the noises."

[JeffHamm]

Well, Jeff, whoever said no and however it was said, the problem remains of explaining what was going on during the intervening five minutes.

Without any information on that time frame, however, there's no way to solve that problem. We know that upon his return Cadosche hears a noise against the fence, and this tends to point to JtR being at some stage of engaging in his murder and mutilation. There was more light, and the injuries less extensive than in the Eddowes case, so it follows he probably needed less time. In the Eddowes case, doctors of the day, and modern medical opinion (from some, as with all opinions they vary), suggested 3-5 minutes or so would be required. So, one possibility to be considered is that when Cadosche returned, JtR simply ceased his activities, shifted closer to the fence to avoid detection and bumped into it, and when Cadosche went to the loo JtR fled at that point.

The murderer was evidently not in the habit of hanging around.

Indeed, which is in part what suggests the above possibility. However, given Stride and Eddowes were both possibily spotted with a man prior to their murders (by Schwartz and Lawende, etc), if either or both of those sightings are valid sightings of JtR, then being detected prior to murdering doesn't seem to be enough to dissuade him.

You say that the murderer may have been emboldened by the sight or sound of Cadoche returning indoors, but why?

? Because he went inside and hadn't spotted him, and so he would feel empowered as a result, might be why. Again, we can't know what is going on inside the head of JtR at any given time, but it's not hard to imagine why having a potential witness fail to notice him and then leave the area wouldn't result in him feeling over confident and make the area appear suitable to his needs.

For all he knew, Cadoche was on his way to number 29 to see what was going on there.

I doubt he would think that given Cadoche did not show so much interest as to even look over the fence. And, given he appears to have then gone on to murder and mutilate Annie, it seems quite clear he didn't think that.

And if the murderer could see or hear Cadoche, what makes you think Cadoche would not have been able to sense the presence of the murderer?

I fail to understand how you could think I think the above? Cadosche did apparently "sense" the presence of someone in the yard, he hears someone say "no" on one occassion and hears something like a fall against the fence on the other. Both of those clearly indicate that Cadosche sensed someone was there. He didn't take much notice of that, probably because he was feeling poorly and also he had to get to work. It would be bizarre if hearing some fairly innocuous noises in the next yard made him think "Oh, there's a murderer next door", so given it is clear he sensed the presence of someone next door, it's also clear there's no reason at that time for him to jump to the conclusion that the person is a murderer in the act.

- Jeff