A closer look at Eagle and Lave

[Lewis C]

Okay, fair enough.



The obvious question here; why didn't Eagle see either Stride or Parcelman? Especially Stride, who you have close to the gates at 12:38, and at the gates by 12:41. How could Eagle arrive at the club in the interim, try the front door and then carefully make his way to the side door, and not see her?

For the Schwartz story to work, is it necessary for Mortimer to have been confused about whose boots she was hearing?

I haven't fully worked out everyone's location, but it seems like the 1st question might be asked with any timeline, since Stride seems to have been in the area the whole time. Eagle would have had to have been inside before Stride was at the gate. If he was, then he may have just not noticed her.

I think Mortimer being mistaken about the policeman's boots is the most likely explanation, but another possibility is that she didn't get to the door as quickly after hearing the boots as what her statement would lead us to believe. There may be other possibilities as well.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

I think that I did account for Brown's time inside the shop. I don't see any reason why Brown leaving his home needed to happen any earlier than 12:43.

Okay, fair enough.

I think that it's possible that Eagle was BS man, but I'd estimate that there's less than a 50% chance of that, so I agree the timeline should be constructed in a way that doesn't require that to be the case. Schwartz must not collide with Smith, but I don't see the problem with Eagle colliding with Smith.

With my above assumptions, I'll take a stab at a timeline:

12:37/38 - Smith passes through and sees Stride with Parcel Man.
12:38/39 - Eagle returns to the club.
12:41/43 - Schwartz & BS Man
12:43/44 - Brown leaves his home.
12:44/45 - Mortimer comes to her door. Maybe what she thought was the policeman before she came to her door was really Schwartz.

The obvious question here; why didn't Eagle see either Stride or Parcelman? Especially Stride, who you have close to the gates at 12:38, and at the gates by 12:41. How could Eagle arrive at the club in the interim, try the front door and then carefully make his way to the side door, and not see her?

For the Schwartz story to work, is it necessary for Mortimer to have been confused about whose boots she was hearing?

[Lewis C]

We have to account for Brown's time inside the shop.

Brown: On Sunday morning last, about 12.45, I went from my own home to get something for supper at the corner of Berner-street, and was in the shop three or four minutes and then went back home. As I was going home I saw a man and woman standing against the wall by the board school in Fairclough-street.

So, if Brown instead leaves home at about 12:40, the couple are at the corner by 12:45, and possibly a few minutes earlier (which would agree with their own estimate). It would seem that any Schwartz-like incident has to go back to at least 12:40. Hence this thread ...

Eagle: I went through the front door on my way out at a quarter-past twelve, but returned to the club about 20 to one. When I returned the front door was closed, so I went in at the back door in the yard and along the passage into the club.

If you don't want Eagle to be the BS man, then you have to push Eagle or Schwartz back in time from ~12:40. Then it's a question of not having either collide with Smith.



When thinking about the Berner St timeline, an important factor is PC Smith's estimate of his beat's timespan range - 25 to 30 minutes. One approach is to make an estimate of Smith's arrival at the yard, and then subtract 27.5 minutes, for an approximate time when seeing Stride and Parcelman. For example, 1:05 minus 27:30, takes us back to about 12:37:30. Pushing Smith's arrival out to 1:10, gives a time between 12:40 and 12:45, which is coincident with this report, seemingly regarding Fanny Mortimer ...

It appears that shortly before a quarter to one o'clock she heard the measured, heavy tramp of a policeman passing the house on his beat. Immediately afterwards she went to the street-door, with the intention of shooting the bolts, though she remained standing there ten minutes before she did so.

Given all the above, what approximate times do you suggest for Smith, Eagle, Schwartz and Mortimer?

I think that I did account for Brown's time inside the shop. I don't see any reason why Brown leaving his home needed to happen any earlier than 12:43.

I think that it's possible that Eagle was BS man, but I'd estimate that there's less than a 50% chance of that, so I agree the timeline should be constructed in a way that doesn't require that to be the case. Schwartz must not collide with Smith, but I don't see the problem with Eagle colliding with Smith.

With my above assumptions, I'll take a stab at a timeline:

12:37/38 - Smith passes through and sees Stride with Parcel Man.
12:38/39 - Eagle returns to the club.
12:41/43 - Schwartz & BS Man
12:43/44 - Brown leaves his home.
12:44/45 - Mortimer comes to her door. Maybe what she thought was the policeman before she came to her door was really Schwartz.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

I think that what you're implying in the 1st paragraph is that we should figure that if it was the young couple that Brown saw, they would have arrived sometime after he passed their location on his way to get dinner, but before he came back outside. I agree that that's most likely the case regardless of who the couple was, though maybe there's an outside chance that they were there before that and Brown just didn't notice them. So we could estimate that Brown left his house at 12:43 or 12:44, and the couple arrived there at 12:45 or 12:46.

We have to account for Brown's time inside the shop.

Brown: On Sunday morning last, about 12.45, I went from my own home to get something for supper at the corner of Berner-street, and was in the shop three or four minutes and then went back home. As I was going home I saw a man and woman standing against the wall by the board school in Fairclough-street.

So, if Brown instead leaves home at about 12:40, the couple are at the corner by 12:45, and possibly a few minutes earlier (which would agree with their own estimate). It would seem that any Schwartz-like incident has to go back to at least 12:40. Hence this thread ...

Eagle: I went through the front door on my way out at a quarter-past twelve, but returned to the club about 20 to one. When I returned the front door was closed, so I went in at the back door in the yard and along the passage into the club.

If you don't want Eagle to be the BS man, then you have to push Eagle or Schwartz back in time from ~12:40. Then it's a question of not having either collide with Smith.

Fitting everything in requires accepting that any accepted time might be off by a few minutes, but it's still not easy. I've thought that the likely order is that PC Smith passed through, then Schwartz, then Mortimer went to her door. The problem I see isn't Eagle missing Stride, because he could have been back inside before she stood at the gateway. I'm more concerned about the interlude between Smith seeing Stride with parcelman and Stride being at the gateway. Between the time that Smith and Schwartz passed through, Stride had to have parted with parcel man, gone to the gateway and been at the doorway before Schwartz was able to see her. It seems like for it to work, Stride and parcelman would have had to have parted immediately after Smith no longer saw them, and Stride had to have been at the gateway for less than a minute before BS man confronted her.

When thinking about the Berner St timeline, an important factor is PC Smith's estimate of his beat's timespan range - 25 to 30 minutes. One approach is to make an estimate of Smith's arrival at the yard, and then subtract 27.5 minutes, for an approximate time when seeing Stride and Parcelman. For example, 1:05 minus 27:30, takes us back to about 12:37:30. Pushing Smith's arrival out to 1:10, gives a time between 12:40 and 12:45, which is coincident with this report, seemingly regarding Fanny Mortimer ...

It appears that shortly before a quarter to one o'clock she heard the measured, heavy tramp of a policeman passing the house on his beat. Immediately afterwards she went to the street-door, with the intention of shooting the bolts, though she remained standing there ten minutes before she did so.

Given all the above, what approximate times do you suggest for Smith, Eagle, Schwartz and Mortimer?

[Lewis C]

Isn't there a potential catch-22 here, in these Victorian days of etiquette.
If you recall, Eagle had the manners to escort his lady home, before continuing his nights entertainment.

Now, with Stride, we are suggesting her date just walks away and leaves the woman alone in this street where, by all accounts she was a stranger.
In response, some will argue she was a streetwalker, her client just left her, but if so, how was she able to service her client?
Then there are others who will argue Stride made an extra-special effort to attend to her looks that night - she was not on-the-game this evening. If that was the case then why does her date, very rudely leave her in the middle of this dark street, well because he was not her date, he was her client....etc...etc.

Which is it, was she on a date - so why did he leave her?
Or, was she soliciting - so how did she service the client?

I think she was soliciting, but I'm far from certain about that.

[Wickerman]

... I'm more concerned about the interlude between Smith seeing Stride with parcelman and Stride being at the gateway. Between the time that Smith and Schwartz passed through, Stride had to have parted with parcel man, gone to the gateway and been at the doorway before Schwartz was able to see her. It seems like for it to work, Stride and parcelman would have had to have parted immediately after Smith no longer saw them, and Stride had to have been at the gateway for less than a minute before BS man confronted her.

Isn't there a potential catch-22 here, in these Victorian days of etiquette.
If you recall, Eagle had the manners to escort his lady home, before continuing his nights entertainment.

Now, with Stride, we are suggesting her date just walks away and leaves the woman alone in this street where, by all accounts she was a stranger.
In response, some will argue she was a streetwalker, her client just left her, but if so, how was she able to service her client?
Then there are others who will argue Stride made an extra-special effort to attend to her looks that night - she was not on-the-game this evening. If that was the case then why does her date, very rudely leave her in the middle of this dark street, well because he was not her date, he was her client....etc...etc.

Which is it, was she on a date - so why did he leave her?
Or, was she soliciting - so how did she service the client?

[Lewis C]

Supposing Brown saw the young couple and not Stride with a man, then the couple's "about 20 minutes" estimate would have them arriving at the corner by about 12:45, and as early as 12:40. That would mean Brown left home somewhat earlier than he supposed.

However, taking your suggestion of moving Schwartz back a bit, then obviously we are getting perilously close to the return of Eagle to the club, and the presence of Lave in the yard and on the street. We also have to consider the hearing of the "measured, heavy tramp" of a policeman's boots.

We should also consider the length of time Stride had supposedly been standing in the gateway, and not just the elapsed time of the alleged assault. How could Eagle have missed seeing her, apparently waiting for something?

Fitting everything in is difficult, if not impossible. As an example, if PC Smith's timings are used, his beat time would have him at the top of Berner St at 1am, which is what he said was the case. This pushes Mortimer's ~10 minutes back in time, else she cannot have missed seeing a man leave the yard. Pushing Mortimer back to say, 12:40-50, spells trouble for Schwartz.

I think that what you're implying in the 1st paragraph is that we should figure that if it was the young couple that Brown saw, they would have arrived sometime after he passed their location on his way to get dinner, but before he came back outside. I agree that that's most likely the case regardless of who the couple was, though maybe there's an outside chance that they were there before that and Brown just didn't notice them. So we could estimate that Brown left his house at 12:43 or 12:44, and the couple arrived there at 12:45 or 12:46.

Fitting everything in requires accepting that any accepted time might be off by a few minutes, but it's still not easy. I've thought that the likely order is that PC Smith passed through, then Schwartz, then Mortimer went to her door. The problem I see isn't Eagle missing Stride, because he could have been back inside before she stood at the gateway. I'm more concerned about the interlude between Smith seeing Stride with parcelman and Stride being at the gateway. Between the time that Smith and Schwartz passed through, Stride had to have parted with parcel man, gone to the gateway and been at the doorway before Schwartz was able to see her. It seems like for it to work, Stride and parcelman would have had to have parted immediately after Smith no longer saw them, and Stride had to have been at the gateway for less than a minute before BS man confronted her.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

One thing to be said about Brown's sighting being after Schwartz' is that in most of the sources, Brown gave 12:45 as the time that he left his house, and said that he went to get dinner, and then saw Stride on his way back to his house, which would be about 12:50. Also, Brown being later fits better with Mortimer being at her door 12:45-12:55, because she might not have seen Brown, but wouldn't have missed Schwartz and BS man if she'd been at her door when that happened. So you could just move Schwartz a minute or 2 earlier and I think it fits with Mortimer and Brown.

Supposing Brown saw the young couple and not Stride with a man, then the couple's "about 20 minutes" estimate would have them arriving at the corner by about 12:45, and as early as 12:40. That would mean Brown left home somewhat earlier than he supposed.

However, taking your suggestion of moving Schwartz back a bit, then obviously we are getting perilously close to the return of Eagle to the club, and the presence of Lave in the yard and on the street. We also have to consider the hearing of the "measured, heavy tramp" of a policeman's boots.

We should also consider the length of time Stride had supposedly been standing in the gateway, and not just the elapsed time of the alleged assault. How could Eagle have missed seeing her, apparently waiting for something?

Fitting everything in is difficult, if not impossible. As an example, if PC Smith's timings are used, his beat time would have him at the top of Berner St at 1am, which is what he said was the case. This pushes Mortimer's ~10 minutes back in time, else she cannot have missed seeing a man leave the yard. Pushing Mortimer back to say, 12:40-50, spells trouble for Schwartz.

[Lewis C]

Did I dismiss Brown? I don't see where or how.

Perhaps Brown's sighting is a good reason for pushing the Schwartz incident back in time, a few minutes or so. What do you think?

One thing to be said about Brown's sighting being after Schwartz' is that in most of the sources, Brown gave 12:45 as the time that he left his house, and said that he went to get dinner, and then saw Stride on his way back to his house, which would be about 12:50. Also, Brown being later fits better with Mortimer being at her door 12:45-12:55, because she might not have seen Brown, but wouldn't have missed Schwartz and BS man if she'd been at her door when that happened. So you could just move Schwartz a minute or 2 earlier and I think it fits with Mortimer and Brown.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

The theory of Eagle being the BS-man, is at least as old as this post ...

https://www.jtrforums.com/forum/persons-of-interest-or-actual-suspects/aaron-kosminski/18391-inspector-reid-kozminski?p=255551#post255551

[NotBlamedForNothing]

New York Times, Oct 2:

The daring character of the murders is evident from the fact that two people at least saw a man and the woman together in the Berner-street gateway, and one saw him throw her down. He went away and left her there, but it was half an hour before it was known that she had been murdered.

He went away and left her there, according to who? Presumably it was the other of the (at least) two people who saw the man and woman together in the gateway. Was that this guy?...

Joseph Lave, an American living temporarily at the club, said - "I was in the Club yard this morning about twenty minutes to one. I came out first at half-past twelve to get a breath of fresh air. I passed out into the street, but did not see anything unusual. The district appeared to me to be quiet. I remained out until twenty minutes to one, and during that time no one came into the yard. I should have seen any body moving about there."

Ref

[FISHY1118]

The Star's description of the beginning of the incident:

When he came homewards about a quarter before one he first walked down Berner-street to see if his wife had moved. As he turned the corner from Commercial-road he noticed some distance in front of him a man walking as if partially intoxicated. He walked on behind him, and presently he noticed a woman standing in the entrance to the alley way where the body was afterwards found. The half-tipsy man halted and spoke to her.

It seems Schwartz did not see the man until he entered Berner street. Perhaps the man had entered the street from the East - the opposite direction to Schwartz, who seems to have turned into Berner street on the club side. Interestingly, supposing that the BS man did enter the street by turning left off Commercial Road, he would have been following the same route that Morris Eagle would take, when walking from his home at 4 New Road*. Eagle said to the press:

I frequent the club. I went into it about 12:40 on this night that you are asking me about, which was about 20 minutes before the body was discovered. I had been in the club before that evening, and had left the premises at midnight in order to see my girl home, with whom I was keeping company. I saw my sweetheart to the door of the house where she was living, and then walked back to the club through little small streets. On my way I saw nothing to excite my attention. There were numbers of persons about of both sexes, and several prostitutes; but there are always a lot of people in the streets, and they are generally very lively at this time of night. I can swear that there was nothing in the streets to arouse my suspicions or the suspicions of any other man in his senses. After seeing my girl home, I went back to the club in Berner-street. The front door was closed, so I went round to the back door on the left-hand side. Later on I went over the same ground with Diemschitz. There is nothing unusual in members of the club going in to the club by the side door; in fact we often do so, when we go in to the club late at night, so as to prevent the knocking at the door, which might be a nuisance to the neighbours. There is no light of any sort in the yard, though there are lights in the street, as there are in every other street. In the club we had a rare good time. We were singing songs and all that sort of thing. Then there was a sudden scare among us; Diemschitz came in and said a woman had been murdered outside. I ran into the yard immediately and I saw in the yard a stream of blood. There was a general hue and cry for the police. I and others went off to find the officers, so I had no opportunity of seeing the body. Besides, I did not want to look at it, as those sights make me feel ill.

So only by chance would Eagle have entered Berner street from the same direction he would take, had he been walking from home. I guess it's possible he did duck home on his way back to the club. By the way, what are the chances that Parcleman's parcel, contained some of the ingredients for the supper that Eagle said he was returning for? Presumably Eagle wasn't going to eat on his own.

Regarding the possibility of Eagle being the 'half-tipsy man', perhaps we can guess at Eagle's state of intoxication, from his remark: "In the club we had a rare good time. We were singing songs and all that sort of thing."

I get the impression that Schwartz was catching up to the half-tipsy man, as he followed him down the street - the man seems to have been walking quite slowly. As Eagle gave a time of about 12:40, and Schwartz gave a time of about 12:45, we have to wonder about who the woman in the following report - presumably Fanny Mortimer - was hearing, right between those times:

A woman who lives two doors from the club has made an important statement. It appears that shortly before a quarter to one o'clock she heard the measured, heavy tramp of a policeman passing the house on his beat. Immediately afterwards she went to the street-door, with the intention of shooting the bolts, though she remained standing there for ten minutes before she did so. During the ten minutes she saw no one enter or leave the neighbouring yard, and she feels sure that had any one done so she could not have overlooked the fact. The quiet and deserted character of the street appears even to have struck her at the time. Locking the door, she prepared to retire to bed, in the front room on the ground floor, and it so happened that in about four minutes' time she heard the pony cart pass the house, and remarked upon the circumstance to her husband.

If the time stated in this report is close to accurate, the Schwartz incident cannot have occurred at 12:45 or later. Either it had already occurred, or what Fanny presumed to be the footsteps of a policeman, was actually the slow plod of the half-tipsy man. Either way, Eagle would seem to be the obvious candidate for the broad-shouldered man. Meanwhile, Lave places himself on the street, right in this period.


* 4 New Road can be located on the ordinance map. Casebook: Jack the Ripper - 1894 Ordinance Map of Whitechapel Division

''IF '' there the problem , Schwartz time is just as likely to be correct as any witness is with their estimated times . Whats of paramount importants tho is this, He is the only person to witness the attack on Stride at 12.45 am . Which ,as ive yet to see, any one witness dispute what he saw at the same time . Swanson and Abberline both ,as well as high ranking officals didnt seem to have to much trouble believing his statement at the time ,yet for some reason 134 years its now a problem ? .. Not likely. .

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Think about what Schwartz saw and then when he left with pipeman following him. Its not hard to see what happen next . Its already been discussed at lengh. i dont need to go over it again

It is hard for me to see what happened next - I don't have a crystal ball. However, while I can see Eagle in the role of the BS man, I can't quite see him cutting Stride's throat.

I find it interesting that a man would toss a woman of the unfortunate class, out of the yard, having earlier that night chaired a meeting entitled "Why Jews should be Socialists". It does reek of hypocrisy, although to be fair, it was probably just a sign of the times.

FYI: An interesting thread on Morris Eagle, at JTR Forums.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

* From what direction did Eagle enter Berner street?

* Whose boots were responsible for the 'measured, heavy tramp'?

The Star's description of the beginning of the incident:

When he came homewards about a quarter before one he first walked down Berner-street to see if his wife had moved. As he turned the corner from Commercial-road he noticed some distance in front of him a man walking as if partially intoxicated. He walked on behind him, and presently he noticed a woman standing in the entrance to the alley way where the body was afterwards found. The half-tipsy man halted and spoke to her.

It seems Schwartz did not see the man until he entered Berner street. Perhaps the man had entered the street from the East - the opposite direction to Schwartz, who seems to have turned into Berner street on the club side. Interestingly, supposing that the BS man did enter the street by turning left off Commercial Road, he would have been following the same route that Morris Eagle would take, when walking from his home at 4 New Road*. Eagle said to the press:

I frequent the club. I went into it about 12:40 on this night that you are asking me about, which was about 20 minutes before the body was discovered. I had been in the club before that evening, and had left the premises at midnight in order to see my girl home, with whom I was keeping company. I saw my sweetheart to the door of the house where she was living, and then walked back to the club through little small streets. On my way I saw nothing to excite my attention. There were numbers of persons about of both sexes, and several prostitutes; but there are always a lot of people in the streets, and they are generally very lively at this time of night. I can swear that there was nothing in the streets to arouse my suspicions or the suspicions of any other man in his senses. After seeing my girl home, I went back to the club in Berner-street. The front door was closed, so I went round to the back door on the left-hand side. Later on I went over the same ground with Diemschitz. There is nothing unusual in members of the club going in to the club by the side door; in fact we often do so, when we go in to the club late at night, so as to prevent the knocking at the door, which might be a nuisance to the neighbours. There is no light of any sort in the yard, though there are lights in the street, as there are in every other street. In the club we had a rare good time. We were singing songs and all that sort of thing. Then there was a sudden scare among us; Diemschitz came in and said a woman had been murdered outside. I ran into the yard immediately and I saw in the yard a stream of blood. There was a general hue and cry for the police. I and others went off to find the officers, so I had no opportunity of seeing the body. Besides, I did not want to look at it, as those sights make me feel ill.

So only by chance would Eagle have entered Berner street from the same direction he would take, had he been walking from home. I guess it's possible he did duck home on his way back to the club. By the way, what are the chances that Parcleman's parcel, contained some of the ingredients for the supper that Eagle said he was returning for? Presumably Eagle wasn't going to eat on his own.

Regarding the possibility of Eagle being the 'half-tipsy man', perhaps we can guess at Eagle's state of intoxication, from his remark: "In the club we had a rare good time. We were singing songs and all that sort of thing."

I get the impression that Schwartz was catching up to the half-tipsy man, as he followed him down the street - the man seems to have been walking quite slowly. As Eagle gave a time of about 12:40, and Schwartz gave a time of about 12:45, we have to wonder about who the woman in the following report - presumably Fanny Mortimer - was hearing, right between those times:

A woman who lives two doors from the club has made an important statement. It appears that shortly before a quarter to one o'clock she heard the measured, heavy tramp of a policeman passing the house on his beat. Immediately afterwards she went to the street-door, with the intention of shooting the bolts, though she remained standing there for ten minutes before she did so. During the ten minutes she saw no one enter or leave the neighbouring yard, and she feels sure that had any one done so she could not have overlooked the fact. The quiet and deserted character of the street appears even to have struck her at the time. Locking the door, she prepared to retire to bed, in the front room on the ground floor, and it so happened that in about four minutes' time she heard the pony cart pass the house, and remarked upon the circumstance to her husband.

If the time stated in this report is close to accurate, the Schwartz incident cannot have occurred at 12:45 or later. Either it had already occurred, or what Fanny presumed to be the footsteps of a policeman, was actually the slow plod of the half-tipsy man. Either way, Eagle would seem to be the obvious candidate for the broad-shouldered man. Meanwhile, Lave places himself on the street, right in this period.


* 4 New Road can be located on the ordinance map. Casebook: Jack the Ripper - 1894 Ordinance Map of Whitechapel Division

[FISHY1118]

Time for Stride to ditch the man? I've got news for you, Fishy ...



Are you going to explain your sudden change of mind, as to who Brown saw?



Follows her where? Into the yard? Stride's boots were level with the swing of the gates, when she was found. That's about 2 yards from where Schwartz claimed to have first seen her.

Think about what Schwartz saw and then when he left with pipeman following him. Its not hard to see what happen next . Its already been discussed at lengh. i dont need to go over it again