A closer look at Eagle and Lave

[Wickerman]

Were they interviewed?

Hi Mike.
It seems like it, there is a report in Evening News, 1 Oct.

When the alarm of murder was raised a young girl had been standing in a bisecting thoroughfare not fifty yards from the spot where the body was found. She had, she said, been standing there for about twenty-minutes, talking with her sweetheart, but neither of them heard any unusual noises.

It's actually 20 yds from the body.

The two men ran along Fairclough Street after 1.00.

Brown says he heard shouting from people moving towards Grove St. about 15 minutes after he came back from the corner shop, so like you say, after 1:00 am.

[Wickerman]

...According to Tom Wescott, Brown and the couple he saw could have happened at the same time that Mortimer was at her door because they were located where she wouldn't or might not have seen them, but she would have seen Smith, Schwartz & Co., Eagle and Lave if they had been in the area at that time. As mentioned, I think that Smith and Eagle can overlap.

Mortimer mentions a couple on the Board School corner. Her door was the third up from the club, 100 ft away from the corner of the Board School.
I can hear people talking 100 ft from my door, it's not that far, and sound carries further at night, though I don't know if there was a lamp on that corner.

[Lewis C]

What I was getting at is simply that an estimate of 12:40 by Eagle, for example, could have actually been 12:35, but it could also have actually been 12:45. The 'margin-of-error' is both a plus and minus value and is really just another estimate. Estimates of the time can't be seen as pieces on a chessboard, to be moved around until some predetermined outcome is achieved.

Rather than trying to weave Schwartz & co. in, in a manner that avoids any unwanted 'collisions', I would just accept that a collision is probably inevitable. In that case, we could have Eagle witnessing Stride and Parcelman, and forgetting about it (as you mentioned in #33), or not wanting to admit to it, or just make Eagle the broad-shouldered man. The last option would obviously raise more questions than it answers, but at least it brings Schwartz's first man into the real world.



It has the same effect on me, but of course this is not a play, so shall we say that Stride was standing at the gateway for about 3 minutes before Schwartz entered Berner St, and a further 3 minutes after picking herself up and dusting herself off, before JtR entered Berner St?

Another period that seems almost impossibly busy, from a timeline point-of-view, is the period from the arrival of Diemschitz to the arrival of Lamb and his colleague. Both Diemschitz and Smith claimed to be at the top of Berner St at 1am. What happens if we 'split the difference' and have the steward arrive at about 12:55? Now consider Mortimer in your #21 timeline ...

12:44/45 - Mortimer comes to her door.

Moving Louis back just 5 minutes causes things to get real interesting.



The proximity of Schwartz to the BS man would suggest that the 'measured, heavy tramp' belonged to neither.

On your first point, I think I follow you now. You weren't saying that the timeline works better if Mortimer is moved earlier and Eagle and Schwartz are moved later. You're saying that working with margins of error allows for those possibilities.

The way that I'm approaching this is to see if there's a way that everything can fit together. Could it all have happened? I would grant that just because it's possible for all of it to fit together doesn't mean that everything that is claimed to have happened really did happen.

Maybe it is right to allow 2 or 3 minutes for Stride to stand at the gateway before Schwartz entered Berner Street. Certainly, it seems reasonable to expect that there should be at least that much slack SOMEWHERE in the timeline. I don't think we have to figure 3 minutes after Stride gets back up for JtR to enter Berner Street, because it could be that BS Man or Pipe Man killed her, in which case JtR is already there. It could also be that someone else was already there that we don't know about.

One thing about moving Louis back 5 minutes is that it's safe to assume that Louis wouldn't have come through while Mortimer was at her door. Also, Mortimer thought she heard a pony and cart pass shortly after she closed her door. So while there's a lot of doubt about other things, I think that Louis passing after Mortimer went back inside is a pretty safe bet.

A question that's been around during the discussion but maybe hasn't been fully explored is, what events could have overlapped and which ones couldn't have? To start with Schwartz and BS Man can't have overlapped with anything; they would have been noticed by any of the other players if they had happened at the same time. According to Tom Wescott, Brown and the couple he saw could have happened at the same time that Mortimer was at her door because they were located where she wouldn't or might not have seen them, but she would have seen Smith, Schwartz & Co., Eagle and Lave if they had been in the area at that time. As mentioned, I think that Smith and Eagle can overlap.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

When I first read this, I thought that you meant, what if we move Mortimer, Eagle and Schwartz so that Eagle returned and Schwartz passed after Mortimer had gone back inside, but now I think that maybe you were talking about a smaller adjustment than that. Perhaps you could adjust my timeline to show exactly what you mean.

What I was getting at is simply that an estimate of 12:40 by Eagle, for example, could have actually been 12:35, but it could also have actually been 12:45. The 'margin-of-error' is both a plus and minus value and is really just another estimate. Estimates of the time can't be seen as pieces on a chessboard, to be moved around until some predetermined outcome is achieved.

Rather than trying to weave Schwartz & co. in, in a manner that avoids any unwanted 'collisions', I would just accept that a collision is probably inevitable. In that case, we could have Eagle witnessing Stride and Parcelman, and forgetting about it (as you mentioned in #33), or not wanting to admit to it, or just make Eagle the broad-shouldered man. The last option would obviously raise more questions than it answers, but at least it brings Schwartz's first man into the real world.

There are a lot of things alleged to have happened in a small amount of time. If we assume all of it really happened, it reminds me a play in which in which people enter the stage, do their thing, and exit the stage, all of it very quickly, one after the other.

It has the same effect on me, but of course this is not a play, so shall we say that Stride was standing at the gateway for about 3 minutes before Schwartz entered Berner St, and a further 3 minutes after picking herself up and dusting herself off, before JtR entered Berner St?

Another period that seems almost impossibly busy, from a timeline point-of-view, is the period from the arrival of Diemschitz to the arrival of Lamb and his colleague. Both Diemschitz and Smith claimed to be at the top of Berner St at 1am. What happens if we 'split the difference' and have the steward arrive at about 12:55? Now consider Mortimer in your #21 timeline ...

12:44/45 - Mortimer comes to her door.

Moving Louis back just 5 minutes causes things to get real interesting.

I'm sure that Mortimer could hear the sounds of the street, but maybe sometimes she misjudged what the sounds were.

The proximity of Schwartz to the BS man would suggest that the 'measured, heavy tramp' belonged to neither.

[Lewis C]

You may have to move Eagle back in time, but then how many fairly precise movements in time are you going to allow yourself, to fit everything in without unwanted clashes? Most of these times are estimates, so what if instead of moving Schwartz and Eagle back, and Mortimer forward (of hearing Smith), you instead did the opposite?



As the "measured, heavy tramp" report contains no attempt at quoting Mortimer, we cannot be sure what she really said on that occasion. However, are we in a position to question what she heard through the front of the house, that night? Surely, she would be accustomed to the sounds of the neighbourhood. Whatever the case, she seems to have been quite capable of hearing sounds out on the street, when the front door was closed.

When I first read this, I thought that you meant, what if we move Mortimer, Eagle and Schwartz so that Eagle returned and Schwartz passed after Mortimer had gone back inside, but now I think that maybe you were talking about a smaller adjustment than that. Perhaps you could adjust my timeline to show exactly what you mean.

There are a lot of things alleged to have happened in a small amount of time. If we assume all of it really happened, it reminds me a play in which in which people enter the stage, do their thing, and exit the stage, all of it very quickly, one after the other.

I'm sure that Mortimer could hear the sounds of the street, but maybe sometimes she misjudged what the sounds were.

[Lewis C]

Brown: “On Sunday morning last, about 12.45, I went from my own home to get something for supper at the corner of Berner-street, and was in the shop three or four minutes and then went back home. As I was going home I saw a man and woman standing against the wall by the board school in Fairclough-street.“

So they were standing around the corner in Fairclough Street out of sight to anyone in Berner Street.

While I agree that Eagle might not have seen, noticed, and remembered Stride & Parcel Man even if they were in the area when he was, I don't know if the above quote helps us here. Even if Brown really did see Stride, I'm figuring Brown left his home about 5 minutes after Eagle returned to the club, and I don't think that Brown said that he saw Stride until he was returning home. So Stride might not have been at that location when Eagle returned home, even if Brown was right about seeing Stride.

[Fleetwood Mac]

Then he could not have returned at 12:30, or even 12:35, because Smith observed the victim alive and well at 12:35 or later.

I know. What I'm saying is that Eagle might not have looked at a clock for a good while given he was walking from about 11.45am and it's a fair period of time to give an estimate, and even the steward's wife who said about 20 minutes to 1 is open to error because 20 minutes, 15 minutes, half an hour isn't an easy estimate when you're just getting on with your night and have no reason to take notice of time.

It could quite easily have been earlier than 12.35 or later.

You're left with a judgment call. Personally, I would err on the side of Liz and Parcelman having been stood talking for at least a few minutes before PC Smith passed by, and that makes it more likely that Eagle returned after Liz and Parcelman disappeared and I'd say he walked past Liz's body. That makes most sense to me, but of course it could be wide of the mark.

Either way, there's nothing out of the ordinary in Eagle not seeing Liz.

[Herlock Sholmes]

They also arrived at that spot while Brown was spending 3 or 4 minutes in the chandler's shop. They heard nothing suspicious, nor did they see a man apparently running after another man along Fairclough St.

Were they interviewed?

The two men ran along Fairclough Street after 1.00.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Brown: “On Sunday morning last, about 12.45, I went from my own home to get something for supper at the corner of Berner-street, and was in the shop three or four minutes and then went back home. As I was going home I saw a man and woman standing against the wall by the board school in Fairclough-street.“

So they were standing around the corner in Fairclough Street out of sight to anyone in Berner Street.

They also arrived at that spot while Brown was spending 3 or 4 minutes in the chandler's shop. They heard nothing suspicious, nor did they see a man apparently running after another man along Fairclough St.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

There is nothing special about Eagle not seeing Liz and Parcelman.

Well, there is given LC's timeline in #21, which is what I was referring to.

Eagle tells us that he left the club at 11.45am and returned at 12.35am. We have no indication of how he calculated 12.35am. Given he had been walking, there's a chance he hadn't seen a clock in that period and it was simply an estimate, and quite clearly without reference to a clock it's open to being out.

Eagle also tells us that it was too dark to see if anybody was lying there as he walked through the entrance to the yard.

He may well have returned at say 12.40am and walked past Liz's body or returned at 12.30am.

Most press reports have Eagle returning at about 12:40, and the steward's wife seems to have agreed with that estimate ...

It was just one o'clock when my husband came home. Some twenty minutes previously a member of the club had entered by the side door, but he states that he did not then notice anybody lying prostrate in the yard.

So, close to 12:40 seems a solid bet, which also seems about right for PC Smith.

Given he made no mention of seeing a couple, the likelihood is that he returned after Liz had been murdered and walked past her body.

Then he could not have returned at 12:30, or even 12:35, because Smith observed the victim alive and well at 12:35 or later.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

I haven't fully worked out everyone's location, but it seems like the 1st question might be asked with any timeline, since Stride seems to have been in the area the whole time. Eagle would have had to have been inside before Stride was at the gate. If he was, then he may have just not noticed her.

You may have to move Eagle back in time, but then how many fairly precise movements in time are you going to allow yourself, to fit everything in without unwanted clashes? Most of these times are estimates, so what if instead of moving Schwartz and Eagle back, and Mortimer forward (of hearing Smith), you instead did the opposite?

I think Mortimer being mistaken about the policeman's boots is the most likely explanation, but another possibility is that she didn't get to the door as quickly after hearing the boots as what her statement would lead us to believe. There may be other possibilities as well.

As the "measured, heavy tramp" report contains no attempt at quoting Mortimer, we cannot be sure what she really said on that occasion. However, are we in a position to question what she heard through the front of the house, that night? Surely, she would be accustomed to the sounds of the neighbourhood. Whatever the case, she seems to have been quite capable of hearing sounds out on the street, when the front door was closed.

[Herlock Sholmes]

I'm not convinced that he did. And even if he did, maybe he didn't especially notice them or remember them.

Brown: “On Sunday morning last, about 12.45, I went from my own home to get something for supper at the corner of Berner-street, and was in the shop three or four minutes and then went back home. As I was going home I saw a man and woman standing against the wall by the board school in Fairclough-street.“

So they were standing around the corner in Fairclough Street out of sight to anyone in Berner Street.

[Fleetwood Mac]

The obvious question here; why didn't Eagle see either Stride or Parcelman?

There is nothing special about Eagle not seeing Liz and Parcelman.

Eagle tells us that he left the club at 11.45am and returned at 12.35am. We have no indication of how he calculated 12.35am. Given he had been walking, there's a chance he hadn't seen a clock in that period and it was simply an estimate, and quite clearly without reference to a clock it's open to being out.

Eagle also tells us that it was too dark to see if anybody was lying there as he walked through the entrance to the yard.

He may well have returned at say 12.40am and walked past Liz's body or returned at 12.30am.

Given he made no mention of seeing a couple, the likelihood is that he returned after Liz had been murdered and walked past her body.

[Lewis C]

Why must Eagle have seen Stride and Parcelman?

I'm not convinced that he did. And even if he did, maybe he didn't especially notice them or remember them.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Why must Eagle have seen Stride and Parcelman?