A closer look at Eagle and Lave

[Wickerman]

What was going on? Was she quarrelling with the Ripper? Surely that wasn't his style.

In my view no, the BS-man was not the Ripper.
Even though in other cases I have suggested the Ripper 'may' have been someone with an awkward gait. In this instance BS-man appears to have approached Stride (if we go with Schwartz's story), so he was not with her when he met her.
If I had to suggest "what was going on", it would be that as BS-man passed the gate and overheard some conversation between Stride and a man in the shadows (Parcel-man?), she had her back to the street, if we accept Schwartz's police statement. BS-man had to turn her around before assaulting her - she was facing, and talking to another man. BS-man did not like what he heard and assumed she was soliciting. He grabbed at her, spun her around and threw her down on the footway. Which means this assault took place outside the gate on the sidewalk.
BS-man didn't kill Stride, after he threw her down he may have noticed the man behind her, not wishing to continue the assault he staggered off.
Parcel-man was her killer.

Is suggesting "he lied", essentially the same as suggesting "some full blown conspiracy involving Schwartz, the club and a few notable citizens"?

In my view they are equally uncalled for.

If you cannot accept the street and time as given, then you must be 100% sure of the Schwartz in Batty St theory, if you are also sure that Schwartz could not have lied.

It's a matter of two choices; we either dismiss Schwartz's entire story & all the players - because it's all lies - for whatever reason(s), or it did happen in similar gateway, to a different woman, in another street.
No matter how we look at it, most of the witness testimony give overlapping times so there's no opening for Schwartz's assault story to have happened at a different time.

Stride was with a man in Berner St. from about 12:15 (Packer) until about 12:30, club members (Wess, Eagle, Lave), passed in and out of the club between 12:15-12:45 roughly), PC Smith saw Stride with a man about 12:35. Mortimer was at her doorway on and off between 12:30 - 01:00 am.

Maybe Wess and the Star did a deal - no mention of the club in exchange for more juicy gossip.

Wess didn't know anything, he left about 12:15, anything he knew was what others had told him.

I agree. It would be a bit odd to be saying that they ran him to earth, at his place. So even if his real address had been leaked, how did the Star find him?

I wouldn't rule out Wess being the interpreter mentioned by the press in retelling Schwartz's story.
I would imagine those Jews who run the club knew almost every Jew in the immediate vicinity of the club. Someone at the club might have known Schwartz, whether he was a member or not. Though the most likely one must be Wess himself.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

I can't see how we can separate him crossing the street, suddenly at the gateway, from the assault taking place in that same gateway.
The story as he tells it suggests that was his reaction so as not to be involved in whatever was going on.

What was going on? Was she quarrelling with the Ripper? Surely that wasn't his style.

More to the point, I strongly avoid any accusation of lying. I am so used to people using the "he lied" as an excuse to promote their own theory. It's the easy option - if you can't make your theory fit because of some witnesses statement, just accuse them of lying. It's the cheap cop-out, and I really don't like anyone raising that excuse, even though people did lie, I'm not suggesting they didn't, but it's what they lied about that becomes the issue.
People had all manner of personal reason's to give false names, false addresses, reason's for not seeing what they must have seen. They may have been wanted for owing rent, or wanted by police for any number of crimes. Possibly even lying about being with a prostitute, or not coming forward, because they are married. This was the East End after all, rife with dens of iniquity, but to suggest some full blown conspiracy involving Schwartz, the club and a few notable citizens, is too much like paperback crime thrillers than real life.

Is suggesting "he lied", essentially the same as suggesting "some full blown conspiracy involving Schwartz, the club and a few notable citizens"?

Therefore, if Schwartz was telling the truth, and if nobody saw him or witnessed anything that he claims to have seen, and the time he passed through cannot be changed from 12:45, to be earlier, or later, then what alternative is left?
Could Schwartz have been in a different street, and he only thought he was in Berner St.?

It would have to be a nearby street, and whats more, it would have to have a driveway gated entrance on the west side.
I've checked Back Church Lane, Christian St., Grove St., but only Batty Street seems to fit that criteria, though I have not been able to find a photograph of that Red Lion pub to see if the entrance on the south side was gated.

Which then urged me to look at the original police statement, it's actually only a summary of it. To see if Schwartz had given any definite location details that could only be applied to Berner St., I was surprised that he didn't.
The details all appear in the press version, not the police version.
Swanson naturally writes that Schwartz entered Berner St. because Schwartz genuinely thought that is where he was, but throughout the subsequent incident the police statement does not include any specific details that can be applied to Berner St.

It's not like I have not considered every other alternative, though I'm not married to the idea. It seems like the last alternative.
Practically everything else has been considered.

If you cannot accept the street and time as given, then you must be 100% sure of the Schwartz in Batty St theory, if you are also sure that Schwartz could not have lied.

The press may have paid a visit to the club and spoken to Wess (West), the Secretary, but if that was their source why not mention it, or at least why only mention visiting the police station?

Maybe Wess and the Star did a deal - no mention of the club in exchange for more juicy gossip.

The story only says they run him down in Back Church Lane, not that he lived there. Ellen St. may have been his new address, as it was on the police statement that he gave on Sunday evening. So, either he had not moved and Ellen St. was his old address, or he had moved and Ellen St. was his new address, but Back Church Lane is not described as his address, just where the press found him.
There were a few Jewish businesses in Back Church Lane, a couple of pubs, no Synagogues.

I agree. It would be a bit odd to be saying that they ran him to earth, at his place. So even if his real address had been leaked, how did the Star find him?

[Wickerman]

So, Fairclough St is just seconds away. By the time he walks away and then realises he might be being followed, those seconds have surely elapsed. Thus, any pursuit must be east on Fairclough, or on the east side of Berner, south of Fairclough. Whatever the case, he seems to have crossed the road to get where he intended to go, and not as an evasive action.

I can't see how we can separate him crossing the street, suddenly at the gateway, from the assault taking place in that same gateway.
The story as he tells it suggests that was his reaction so as not to be involved in whatever was going on.

So, you must entertain the possibility that the whole thing never happened. If no one heard or saw anything to support the story and the story is difficult to fit into timelines, excluding something extraordinary like the thing actually occurring in Batty St, then we have to wonder if the Leman St police had good reason to doubt the truth of the story.

More to the point, I strongly avoid any accusation of lying. I am so used to people using the "he lied" as an excuse to promote their own theory. It's the easy option - if you can't make your theory fit because of some witnesses statement, just accuse them of lying. It's the cheap cop-out, and I really don't like anyone raising that excuse, even though people did lie, I'm not suggesting they didn't, but it's what they lied about that becomes the issue.
People had all manner of personal reason's to give false names, false addresses, reason's for not seeing what they must have seen. They may have been wanted for owing rent, or wanted by police for any number of crimes. Possibly even lying about being with a prostitute, or not coming forward, because they are married. This was the East End after all, rife with dens of iniquity, but to suggest some full blown conspiracy involving Schwartz, the club and a few notable citizens, is too much like paperback crime thrillers than real life.

Therefore, if Schwartz was telling the truth, and if nobody saw him or witnessed anything that he claims to have seen, and the time he passed through cannot be changed from 12:45, to be earlier, or later, then what alternative is left?
Could Schwartz have been in a different street, and he only thought he was in Berner St.?

It would have to be a nearby street, and whats more, it would have to have a driveway gated entrance on the west side.
I've checked Back Church Lane, Christian St., Grove St., but only Batty Street seems to fit that criteria, though I have not been able to find a photograph of that Red Lion pub to see if the entrance on the south side was gated.

Which then urged me to look at the original police statement, it's actually only a summary of it. To see if Schwartz had given any definite location details that could only be applied to Berner St., I was surprised that he didn't.
The details all appear in the press version, not the police version.
Swanson naturally writes that Schwartz entered Berner St. because Schwartz genuinely thought that is where he was, but throughout the subsequent incident the police statement does not include any specific details that can be applied to Berner St.

It's not like I have not considered every other alternative, though I'm not married to the idea. It seems like the last alternative.
Practically everything else has been considered.

Those who think Berner St should ponder why Schwartz crossed the street immediately after witnessing the struggle. Those who think Fairclough St should imagine Schwartz carrying a black bag and turning into Christian St unnoticed by Edward Spooner. In either case, they should wonder about Schwartz being 'run to earth' on Backchurch Lane. Who gave the Star that location, and for what purpose?

The press may have paid a visit to the club and spoken to Wess (West), the Secretary, but if that was their source why not mention it, or at least why only mention visiting the police station?

I'm wondering what D.I. Reid might have said to the coroner, about his men visiting 22 Ellen St and hearing nothing of Schwartz's tale. Perhaps Baxter had reason to doubt the truth of the story, but then, why would Schwartz make it up?

The story only says they run him down in Back Church Lane, not that he lived there. Ellen St. may have been his new address, as it was on the police statement that he gave on Sunday evening. So, either he had not moved and Ellen St. was his old address, or he had moved and Ellen St. was his new address, but Back Church Lane is not described as his address, just where the press found him.
There were a few Jewish businesses in Back Church Lane, a couple of pubs, no Synagogues.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Pretty close, from the yard to the corner was 20 yds, so lets say 10 yds as he passed the centre of the street.

So, Fairclough St is just seconds away. By the time he walks away and then realises he might be being followed, those seconds have surely elapsed. Thus, any pursuit must be east on Fairclough, or on the east side of Berner, south of Fairclough. Whatever the case, he seems to have crossed the road to get where he intended to go, and not as an evasive action.

We can't pinpoint him exactly, but if his timing was accurate the couple on the corner would have seen him coming towards them - assuming he was in Berner St.
I had to add that last bit, his statement only fits if there's nobody else in the street, or if he was in a different street.

So, you must entertain the possibility that the whole thing never happened. If no one heard or saw anything to support the story and the story is difficult to fit into timelines, excluding something extraordinary like the thing actually occurring in Batty St, then we have to wonder if the Leman St police had good reason to doubt the truth of the story.

There's some who think it could be either.

Those who think Berner St should ponder why Schwartz crossed the street immediately after witnessing the struggle. Those who think Fairclough St should imagine Schwartz carrying a black bag and turning into Christian St unnoticed by Edward Spooner. In either case, they should wonder about Schwartz being 'run to earth' on Backchurch Lane. Who gave the Star that location, and for what purpose?

That again?
I find it hard to believe anyone would propose such an idea.

I'm wondering what D.I. Reid might have said to the coroner, about his men visiting 22 Ellen St and hearing nothing of Schwartz's tale. Perhaps Baxter had reason to doubt the truth of the story, but then, why would Schwartz make it up?

[Wickerman]

Regarding the board school corner ...

On crossing to the opposite side of the street, he saw a second man standing lighting his pipe.

If that crossing had been a diagonal one, how close would Schwartz then be to the corner?

Pretty close, from the yard to the corner was 20 yds, so lets say 10 yds as he passed the centre of the street.

... then Schwartz walked away, ...

Has he reached Fairclough St already, at this point?

We can't pinpoint him exactly, but if his timing was accurate the couple on the corner would have seen him coming towards them - assuming he was in Berner St.
I had to add that last bit, his statement only fits if there's nobody else in the street, or if he was in a different street.

... but finding that he was followed by the second man ...

It was not immediately apparent that the second man was following, but surely by the time it was, Schwartz would have at least reached Fairclough St.

... he ran so far as the railway arch ...

Which one? Well, did Schwartz continue down Berner St, or turn East into Fairclough St?

There's some who think it could be either.

Crossing Berner St when he did, could well tell us the answer. So, if the answer is Fairclough St, then let's at least acknowledge the coincidence of ...

FM: ... the only man whom I had seen pass through the street previously was a young man carrying a black shiny bag who walked very fast down the street from the Commercial road. He looked up at the club, and then went round the corner by the board school.

... who just happened to live near the Christian St railway arch.

That again?
I find it hard to believe anyone would propose such an idea.

[Lewis C]

Mortimer mentions a couple on the Board School corner. Her door was the third up from the club, 100 ft away from the corner of the Board School.
I can hear people talking 100 ft from my door, it's not that far, and sound carries further at night, though I don't know if there was a lamp on that corner.

Mortimer could have heard people talking, but my understanding is that what she said about the young couple was based on what they told her when she talked to them after the murder, not on personal observation.

[Lewis C]

I don't think Mortimer saw the cart, either. What I was alluding to is the possibility that her locking the front door and Diemschitz turning into Berner St, were very close in time. The other possibility for an arrival of Diemschitz a few minutes before 1am, is that Mortimer has locked up, say 4 or 5 minutes earlier. That places her at her doorstep in the 12:45 period, with obvious implications for personal timelines.



Presumably you don't like the idea of Eagle being the BS man, first suggested by Tom Wescott. Not BS man the murderer, by the way, just the assaulter who is not happy with Stride standing in the gateway. Otherwise, yes, Schwartz and co. cannot overlap with anything, and not forgetting the indeterminate length of time Stride stands at the gates, seemingly alone.

There was a debate in another thread years ago, about the identity of the board school couple and the possibility that Mortimer had been aware of their presence. What I think matters more is that she seems to have claimed that the street had been very quiet, but not completely deserted. In that case, she may well have seen people like Eagle, Lave and Charles Letchford, but not Stride and Parcelman.

I agree that Mortimer locking her front door and Diemschutz turning onto Berner Street may have been very close in time. Another possibility is that what Mortimer thought was 10 minutes standing at her door was really 8 minutes.

I do think that Eagle could have been BS Man, so probably the best thing to do when making a timeline is make a range of times for both Eagle and BS Man that allows for the possibility of them being the same, and also for that not being the case. So hypothetically, 12:39-12:41 could be listed as the time for Eagle, and 12:41-12:43 for BS Man. That way the timeline allows for 12:41 for both, meaning they are the same, and also for, say, 12:40 for Eagle and 12:43 for BS Man if they're not the same.

Mortimer said that the street wasn't completely deserted, but also that the man with the black bag was the only man that she saw. So how do we reconcile these two statements? I can think of 2 possibilities. One is that the black bag man was the exception; other than him, the streets were completely deserted. Another is that he was the only one that she SAW, but she heard a voice or two outside of people that she couldn't see.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Did you know? A tailor, Israel Goldstein (45, born in Warsaw/Poland) was living at 40 Berner Street in 1891 (census).

Yes. Referred to in this post ...

https://forum.casebook.org/forum/ripper-discussions/scene-of-the-crimes/11031-the-nihilist-club-ie-berner-street?p=643847#post643847

[S.Brett]

Regarding the board school corner ...

On crossing to the opposite side of the street, he saw a second man standing lighting his pipe.

If that crossing had been a diagonal one, how close would Schwartz then be to the corner?

... then Schwartz walked away, ...

Has he reached Fairclough St already, at this point?

... but finding that he was followed by the second man ...

It was not immediately apparent that the second man was following, but surely by the time it was, Schwartz would have at least reached Fairclough St.

... he ran so far as the railway arch ...

Which one? Well, did Schwartz continue down Berner St, or turn East into Fairclough St?

Crossing Berner St when he did, could well tell us the answer. So, if the answer is Fairclough St, then let's at least acknowledge the coincidence of ...

FM: ... the only man whom I had seen pass through the street previously was a young man carrying a black shiny bag who walked very fast down the street from the Commercial road. He looked up at the club, and then went round the corner by the board school.

... who just happened to live near the Christian St railway arch.


Could he have been a 22-year-old, Russian born cigarette maker?

Did you know? A tailor, Israel Goldstein (45, born in Warsaw/Poland) was living at 40 Berner Street in 1891 (census).

[Herlock Sholmes]

I didn't suggest this, but I did suggest that Spooner's girlfriend didn't exist, because there is no mention of her once Spooner hastens to Berner St, and from then on Spooner is only ever quoted referring to "I" and not "we".

What you're suggesting here is going to have to consider where Spooner had previously been ...

We had been in a beershop at the corner of Settles-street, Commercial-road, and remained till closing time. I stood at the top of Christian-street for a few minutes, and then walked down the street. We had been standing there about 25 minutes, I suppose, when two Jews came running along.

Ironically, Stride seems to have been in a pub on Settle's St, that night.



I take "not fifty yards" to mean "less than, but comparable to fifty yards". So, more than 50 feet but less than 50 yards.

Thanks for that. I could only recall the Commercial Road part but if they walked down Christian Street it’s clearly a non-starter.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

For discussions sake, and this has probably already been suggested (possibly by Andrew?), let’s say that the incident has already occurred at Berner Street is empty. Brown goes to the shop and sees no one. Spooner and his girlfriend walk along Berner Street, turn into Fairclough Street and stand talking on the corner. Brown returns and sees them and mistakenly believes that this was Stride due to a similarity of appearance. After he passes they walk along to the corner of Christian Street by The Beehive where they again stand talking. Diemschitz doesn’t see them as he passes up to Grove Street (smooching in a doorway perhaps?) but sees them when he returns.

I didn't suggest this, but I did suggest that Spooner's girlfriend didn't exist, because there is no mention of her once Spooner hastens to Berner St, and from then on Spooner is only ever quoted referring to "I" and not "we".

What you're suggesting here is going to have to consider where Spooner had previously been ...

We had been in a beershop at the corner of Settles-street, Commercial-road, and remained till closing time. I stood at the top of Christian-street for a few minutes, and then walked down the street. We had been standing there about 25 minutes, I suppose, when two Jews came running along.

Ironically, Stride seems to have been in a pub on Settle's St, that night.

Could the couples “bisecting thoroughfare not fifty yards from the spot where the body was found” have actually been the corner of Christian and Fairclough Streets? So the fact that they said that they had been there for ‘about 20 minutes’ wouldn’t have been far off.

I take "not fifty yards" to mean "less than, but comparable to fifty yards". So, more than 50 feet but less than 50 yards.

[Herlock Sholmes]

For discussions sake, and this has probably already been suggested (possibly by Andrew?), let’s say that the incident has already occurred at Berner Street is empty. Brown goes to the shop and sees no one. Spooner and his girlfriend walk along Berner Street, turn into Fairclough Street and stand talking on the corner. Brown returns and sees them and mistakenly believes that this was Stride due to a similarity of appearance. After he passes they walk along to the corner of Christian Street by The Beehive where they again stand talking. Diemschitz doesn’t see them as he passes up to Grove Street (smooching in a doorway perhaps?) but sees them when he returns.

Could the couples “bisecting thoroughfare not fifty yards from the spot where the body was found” have actually been the corner of Christian and Fairclough Streets? So the fact that they said that they had been there for ‘about 20 minutes’ wouldn’t have been far off.

Question - If this couple was Spooner and his girlfriend then why didn’t they mention Spooner’s later actions in the newspaper interview? Maybe he did, the interview isn’t a direct quote so perhaps they were just considering events close to the time of the Schwartz incident?

[Herlock Sholmes]

Hi Mike.
It seems like it, there is a report in Evening News, 1 Oct.

When the alarm of murder was raised a young girl had been standing in a bisecting thoroughfare not fifty yards from the spot where the body was found. She had, she said, been standing there for about twenty-minutes, talking with her sweetheart, but neither of them heard any unusual noises.

It's actually 20 yds from the body.



Brown says he heard shouting from people moving towards Grove St. about 15 minutes after he came back from the corner shop, so like you say, after 1:00 am.

Hi Wick,

Thanks for that.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Mortimer mentions a couple on the Board School corner. Her door was the third up from the club, 100 ft away from the corner of the Board School.
I can hear people talking 100 ft from my door, it's not that far, and sound carries further at night, though I don't know if there was a lamp on that corner.

Regarding the board school corner ...

On crossing to the opposite side of the street, he saw a second man standing lighting his pipe.

If that crossing had been a diagonal one, how close would Schwartz then be to the corner?

... then Schwartz walked away, ...

Has he reached Fairclough St already, at this point?

... but finding that he was followed by the second man ...

It was not immediately apparent that the second man was following, but surely by the time it was, Schwartz would have at least reached Fairclough St.

... he ran so far as the railway arch ...

Which one? Well, did Schwartz continue down Berner St, or turn East into Fairclough St?

Crossing Berner St when he did, could well tell us the answer. So, if the answer is Fairclough St, then let's at least acknowledge the coincidence of ...

FM: ... the only man whom I had seen pass through the street previously was a young man carrying a black shiny bag who walked very fast down the street from the Commercial road. He looked up at the club, and then went round the corner by the board school.

... who just happened to live near the Christian St railway arch.

I believe in the Schwartz- story and the chances are pretty good that BS Man was the killer of Stride.

But who was Israel Schwartz?

"This foreigner was well dressed, and had the appearance of being in the theatrical line"

Could he have been a 22-year-old, Russian born cigarette maker?

[NotBlamedForNothing]

On your first point, I think I follow you now. You weren't saying that the timeline works better if Mortimer is moved earlier and Eagle and Schwartz are moved later. You're saying that working with margins of error allows for those possibilities.

Yes, but also that time estimates aren't a license to move characters around within these 'margins of error', having begun with a predetermined outcome (fitting everything in without unwanted collisions), and then declaring that the arrived at timeline is compatible with no unwanted sightings or hearings.

The way that I'm approaching this is to see if there's a way that everything can fit together. Could it all have happened? I would grant that just because it's possible for all of it to fit together doesn't mean that everything that is claimed to have happened really did happen.

I agree, and "possible for all of it to fit together" is equivalent to saying; "I know if all these things happened according to my timeline, no one on those streets on that night would have seen or heard anything I don't want them to have seen or heard."

Maybe it is right to allow 2 or 3 minutes for Stride to stand at the gateway before Schwartz entered Berner Street. Certainly, it seems reasonable to expect that there should be at least that much slack SOMEWHERE in the timeline. I don't think we have to figure 3 minutes after Stride gets back up for JtR to enter Berner Street, because it could be that BS Man or Pipe Man killed her, in which case JtR is already there. It could also be that someone else was already there that we don't know about.

If Schwartz claimed that Stride was standing in the gateway as he approached, we cannot conveniently suppose that she arrived at that point the second before he first sees her. On the other hand, we can't put a figure on it either. So, it's an indeterminate period, but those who are confident in the authenticity of Schwartz's story, should be willing to add some slack into that part of the timeline, and not just try to make Schwartz and co. the smallest target they can conceive.

Adding a further period of standing in the gateway after the BS assault, or not, would depend on supposing that BS man was a skilled killer, regardless of his behaviour on the street, or that he leaves the scene, only for another man to appear from either street or yard.

One thing about moving Louis back 5 minutes is that it's safe to assume that Louis wouldn't have come through while Mortimer was at her door. Also, Mortimer thought she heard a pony and cart pass shortly after she closed her door. So while there's a lot of doubt about other things, I think that Louis passing after Mortimer went back inside is a pretty safe bet.

I don't think Mortimer saw the cart, either. What I was alluding to is the possibility that her locking the front door and Diemschitz turning into Berner St, were very close in time. The other possibility for an arrival of Diemschitz a few minutes before 1am, is that Mortimer has locked up, say 4 or 5 minutes earlier. That places her at her doorstep in the 12:45 period, with obvious implications for personal timelines.

A question that's been around during the discussion but maybe hasn't been fully explored is, what events could have overlapped and which ones couldn't have? To start with Schwartz and BS Man can't have overlapped with anything; they would have been noticed by any of the other players if they had happened at the same time. According to Tom Wescott, Brown and the couple he saw could have happened at the same time that Mortimer was at her door because they were located where she wouldn't or might not have seen them, but she would have seen Smith, Schwartz & Co., Eagle and Lave if they had been in the area at that time. As mentioned, I think that Smith and Eagle can overlap.

Presumably you don't like the idea of Eagle being the BS man, first suggested by Tom Wescott. Not BS man the murderer, by the way, just the assaulter who is not happy with Stride standing in the gateway. Otherwise, yes, Schwartz and co. cannot overlap with anything, and not forgetting the indeterminate length of time Stride stands at the gates, seemingly alone.

There was a debate in another thread years ago, about the identity of the board school couple and the possibility that Mortimer had been aware of their presence. What I think matters more is that she seems to have claimed that the street had been very quiet, but not completely deserted. In that case, she may well have seen people like Eagle, Lave and Charles Letchford, but not Stride and Parcelman.