A closer look at Eagle and Lave

[NotBlamedForNothing]

I did consider that, but this was October, others that night say it was windy & raining.
Probably not the ideal conditions for leaving your front door open at 12:30 at night.

Well, if you doubt the hearing of police footsteps, then you must regard everything in that report as questionable.

I can't see a man coming out of the club being the one with Stride.
The scenario suggests Stride came up Berner St. with the man, they first stopped at Packer's window. Then stood opposite the club.
Lave's story doesn't fit the man with the parcel.

You have more confidence in Packer's story than I do.

Marshall:

Where? - In our street, three doors from my house, about a quarter to twelve o'clock. She was on the pavement, opposite No. 58, between Fairclough-street and Boyd-street.
...
What class of man did he appear to be? - I should say he was in business, and did nothing like hard work.
...
A clerk? - He had more the appearance of a clerk.
...
They went away down the street, towards Ellen-street. They would not then pass No. 40 (the club).

EN, Oct 4:

On the 29th ult., about 11.45 p.m., a man and woman came to his shop window, and asked for some fruit.

"He looked to me like a clerk or something of that sort. I am certain he wasn't what I should call a working man or anything like us folks that live around here."

Is the timing and appearance a coincidence? Did the couple really go and stand across from the club, or walk south toward Ellen St? The later would explain why Packer told the police he did not see any suspicious person about.

The hat worn by the suspect, and his estimation of the size of the parcel, from across the street, and in the dark.

There must be some possibility that the grapes in Stride's right hand were really there but did not come from Packer's shop. Did Packer sell cachous?

I'm assuming PC Smith is walking up the club side of the street, Parcel-man waits for PC Smith to pass the yard. Mortimer hears the 'heavy tramp' of PC Smith pass her house.
Parcel-man must then walk Stride across the street and into the darkness of the yard. Mortimer appears at her door too late to see the couple come across the road. She stands at her door about 10 minutes.
Parcel-man is with Stride for most of that 10 minutes before killing Stride...on Mortimer's Clock, Stride was struck down just minutes after 12:55, but before Diemshutz arrived at 12:59.
Conjecturally speaking.

The big question for this scenario; why did this man kill Stride after being seen with the victim by a policeman?

[Wickerman]

Perhaps she had left the front door open. If she had a habit of going to and from her doorstep, would she bother opening and closing the door every time?

I did consider that, but this was October, others that night say it was windy & raining.
Probably not the ideal conditions for leaving your front door open at 12:30 at night.

Smith: She stood on the pavement a few yards from where the body was found, but on the opposite side of the street.

Do you suppose that had Lave said "I went a few yards out on the street", he could have been Parcelman, but by saying he went "as far as the street", he could not possibly be? He is hardly going to admit to being with Stride.

I can't see a man coming out of the club being the one with Stride.
The scenario suggests Stride came up Berner St. with the man, they first stopped at Packer's window. Then stood opposite the club.
Lave's story doesn't fit the man with the parcel.

What part of Smith's testimony are you dubious about?

The hat worn by the suspect, and his estimation of the size of the parcel, from across the street, and in the dark.

So, you are left with the issue of getting Stride and the man she is seen with, out of Mortimer's sight, very quickly after Smith passes.

I'm assuming PC Smith is walking up the club side of the street, Parcel-man waits for PC Smith to pass the yard. Mortimer hears the 'heavy tramp' of PC Smith pass her house.
Parcel-man must then walk Stride across the street and into the darkness of the yard. Mortimer appears at her door too late to see the couple come across the road. She stands at her door about 10 minutes.
Parcel-man is with Stride for most of that 10 minutes before killing Stride...on Mortimer's Clock, Stride was struck down just minutes after 12:55, but before Diemshutz arrived at 12:59.
Conjecturally speaking.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

A far more common sense conclusion to my mind would come from the question - 'how many men could Stride have been with, standing directly opposite the club, between 12:30-12:35, carrying a newspaper parcel?'
This might be rash, but I'd stick my neck out and say - only one.
Which means Packer & PC Smith saw the same man, regardless of the estimated length of the parcel.
It is often possible to solve a problem by approaching it from a different point of view.

So, Parcelman must have been Packer's grape purchaser, thus ruling out Lave?

Evening News, Oct 4:

"But did he speak like an Englishman or more in this style?" I asked, imitating as well as I could the Yankee twang.

"Yes, now you mention it, there was a sound of that sort about it," was the instantaneous reply.


Joseph Lave: I am a Russian, and have recently arrived in England from the United States.

Where he picked up a Yankee twang?


EN: ... Packer saw them cross the road again and come over to the club, standing for a moment in front of it as though listening to the music inside. Then he lost sight of them. It was then ten or fifteen minutes past twelve o'clock, Packer, who was about to close his shop, noting the time by the fact that the public houses had been closed.

Why are the couple not seen for about half an hour?

[NotBlamedForNothing]

No, I don't believe so Andrew.
For some reason I always pictured PC Smith walking up the east side (by the Board School) of Berner St., so I'm dubious if Mortimer, inside her house on the west side could even hear someone walking on the other side.

Perhaps she had left the front door open. If she had a habit of going to and from her doorstep, would she bother opening and closing the door every time?

This may be a point for discussion, because, I'm sure PC Smith says Stride & Parcel-man were stood opposite the club (east side), not in front of the club (west side), if this is the case then his recollection may be justified as he passed within a foot or two of them.
However, if he passed up the east side, directly across the front of Mortimer's house. This would justify her claiming to hear the 'heavy tramp', it was outside her door.
This though will call into question the accuracy of PC Smith's recollection, as Stride & Parcel-man were on the other side of the street, in the dull light, as he walked passed.

Smith: She stood on the pavement a few yards from where the body was found, but on the opposite side of the street.

Do you suppose that had Lave said "I went a few yards out on the street", he could have been Parcelman, but by saying he went "as far as the street", he could not possibly be? He is hardly going to admit to being with Stride.

Regarding PC Smith's testimony. On his beat he no doubt will see numerous couples or single men coming and going all night long.
Then, out of the blue someone metaphorically, says "stop".

Now, PC Smith, you are in Commercial Rd., but think back half an hour ago, you were in Berner St. and you passed a man & woman stood together.
"Describe them".

How many couples pass through his mind, two, three, more?
To help him he is shown the body - "did you see this woman?"
Now, he is trying to think if he did, and where might he have seen her, and if she was with someone, and if so, what they both looked like. Also, if the man was carrying something, and then "accurately", describe what he was carrying?

It's not like he knew in advance this couple were coming up the street, nor did he take out a measuring tape and measure the package.

Yet, we are supposed to hang on every word he says as if he has a photographic memory.
I am suggesting witnesses in general often struggle to provide answers to questions, and PC Smith will be no different.

What part of Smith's testimony are you dubious about?

I don't see how the movements by Lave could suit what we know about Parcel-man.
I don't think Lave even went into Berner St., he says he went "as far as the street", which to me means he walked about inside the yard, but went as far as the gates, but no further.

So, you are left with the issue of getting Stride and the man she is seen with, out of Mortimer's sight, very quickly after Smith passes.

[New Waterloo]

I am leaning towards Wickermans suggestion that the Bricklayers Arms man could be JTR. Without belittling different classes it appears from the witnesses that this man was perhaps a bit more educated or at least of a more monied class. I think JTR had to have some skills in planning the murders. He could have been some down and out with lots of luck but that seems unlikely to me. He has to have a little money to frequent pubs and the like and an awareness of the geography of the area.

There is a lot spoken about 'motive' as regards crime. These crimes do not appear to me to be motiveless. There seems to be something that connects them all other than sexual urge and sheer evil. Maybe I am thinking to deeply but to risk certain capture by murdering somebody in the gateway of a working mens club needs some thinking about.

If Parcelman is Briclayer's man he waits for the right time. Timing is everything, he makes his move only to be disturbed by the bumbling BSM. I dont feel Stride was killed by a member of the club. They didnt like the police, they didnt want to draw any attention to what they were up to. Yes they probably knew a bit more than they were saying but I cant see why a member of the club would cut Strides throat in that location. Seems daft unless the murderer was an absolute nut case. Well who knows.

NW

[Wickerman]

I think you make a valuable point about PC Smith being able to recall everything. He clearly describes the parcel the man was carrying. I would suggest this is because it grabbed his attention. These were dangerous streets. Of course he is going to look at what the man is carrying and I cannot believe he would make up or be mistaken in that. It is such an obscure object to be carrying. a parcel wrapped in newspaper that it has to be correct shall we say, well a fair description. Yes Smith could not have taken in everything and this probably excuses him for his recollection of the hat the man was wearing. He was not sure about that and is probably why he changes dis description of that. The main thing he noticed in detail was the parcel.

NW

The detail about the parcel being wrapped in newspaper is fine, it was the common form of wrapping for the poorest to use, it was plentiful and it was free.
It's the size that is often the most debated detail. Smith says it was 18 inch long, not 16, not 20, and this 18 inch has been taken as gospell as if he measured it.
The problem as I see it is, Smith does not say on what side of the street he passed, but he does say Stride & Parcel-man were on the side opposite the club.

Mortimer claims to have heard the 'heavy tramp' as would be befitting a constable on his beat. but, she was inside her house, and Berner St. at that point is over 30 ft wide. How on earth could anyone hear a constable walking outside, across the street when she is in her house. For her to reasonably hear the footsteps it is much more believable that PC Smith walked pass the front of her house, directly outside her door/window.
That being the case, how can PC Smith accurately guess the length of a package carried by a man over 30 ft away across the street, in subdued light. There not being a streetlamp at that spot opposite the club.

A far more common sense conclusion to my mind would come from the question - 'how many men could Stride have been with, standing directly opposite the club, between 12:30-12:35, carrying a newspaper parcel?'
This might be rash, but I'd stick my neck out and say - only one.
Which means Packer & PC Smith saw the same man, regardless of the estimated length of the parcel.
It is often possible to solve a problem by approaching it from a different point of view.

[New Waterloo]

I think you make a valuable point about PC Smith being able to recall everything. He clearly describes the parcel the man was carrying. I would suggest this is because it grabbed his attention. These were dangerous streets. Of course he is going to look at what the man is carrying and I cannot believe he would make up or be mistaken in that. It is such an obscure object to be carrying. a parcel wrapped in newspaper that it has to be correct shall we say, well a fair description. Yes Smith could not have taken in everything and this probably excuses him for his recollection of the hat the man was wearing. He was not sure about that and is probably why he changes dis description of that. The main thing he noticed in detail was the parcel.

NW

[Wickerman]

How well does Joseph Lave 'work' as Parcelman?

Consider, once again ...

It appears that shortly before a quarter to one o'clock she heard the measured, heavy tramp of a policeman passing the house on his beat. Immediately afterwards she went to the street-door, with the intention of shooting the bolts, though she remained standing there for ten minutes before she did so.

Had Mortimer heard Smith's footsteps pass and then immediately afterwards gone to her door, she would have seen Elizabeth with Parcelman. So, presumably it wasn't immediately afterwards, but more like "not long after". Even so, the pair must have moved off the street quite quickly to have avoided being seen by Fanny. Dutfield's Yard seems like a good guess.

A Russian named Joseph Lave - feeling oppressed by the smoke in the large room, went down into the court about twenty minutes before the body was discovered, and walked about in the open air for five minutes or more. He strolled into the street, which was very quiet at the time, and returned to the concert room without having encountered anything unusual.

Does encountering "Long Liz" count as something unusual?

Baxter: Smith was very precise, and stated that he was carrying a parcel, done up in a newspaper, about 18in. in length and 6in. to 8in. in width.

Did Lave go outside not just for fresh air, but with the intention of selling some merchandise? Was the parcel "done up in a newspaper" because it had advertising on it, designed and printed in the Arbeter Fraint offices?

Cachous for sale!

No, I don't believe so Andrew.
For some reason I always pictured PC Smith walking up the east side (by the Board School) of Berner St., so I'm dubious if Mortimer, inside her house on the west side could even hear someone walking on the other side.

This may be a point for discussion, because, I'm sure PC Smith says Stride & Parcel-man were stood opposite the club (east side), not in front of the club (west side), if this is the case then his recollection may be justified as he passed within a foot or two of them.
However, if he passed up the east side, directly across the front of Mortimer's house. This would justify her claiming to hear the 'heavy tramp', it was outside her door.
This though will call into question the accuracy of PC Smith's recollection, as Stride & Parcel-man were on the other side of the street, in the dull light, as he walked passed.


Regarding PC Smith's testimony. On his beat he no doubt will see numerous couples or single men coming and going all night long.
Then, out of the blue someone metaphorically, says "stop".

Now, PC Smith, you are in Commercial Rd., but think back half an hour ago, you were in Berner St. and you passed a man & woman stood together.
"Describe them".

How many couples pass through his mind, two, three, more?
To help him he is shown the body - "did you see this woman?"
Now, he is trying to think if he did, and where might he have seen her, and if she was with someone, and if so, what they both looked like. Also, if the man was carrying something, and then "accurately", describe what he was carrying?

It's not like he knew in advance this couple were coming up the street, nor did he take out a measuring tape and measure the package.

Yet, we are supposed to hang on every word he says as if he has a photographic memory.
I am suggesting witnesses in general often struggle to provide answers to questions, and PC Smith will be no different.

I don't see how the movements by Lave could suit what we know about Parcel-man.
I don't think Lave even went into Berner St., he says he went "as far as the street", which to me means he walked about inside the yard, but went as far as the gates, but no further.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

How well does Joseph Lave 'work' as Parcelman?

Consider, once again ...

It appears that shortly before a quarter to one o'clock she heard the measured, heavy tramp of a policeman passing the house on his beat. Immediately afterwards she went to the street-door, with the intention of shooting the bolts, though she remained standing there for ten minutes before she did so.

Had Mortimer heard Smith's footsteps pass and then immediately afterwards gone to her door, she would have seen Elizabeth with Parcelman. So, presumably it wasn't immediately afterwards, but more like "not long after". Even so, the pair must have moved off the street quite quickly to have avoided being seen by Fanny. Dutfield's Yard seems like a good guess.

A Russian named Joseph Lave - feeling oppressed by the smoke in the large room, went down into the court about twenty minutes before the body was discovered, and walked about in the open air for five minutes or more. He strolled into the street, which was very quiet at the time, and returned to the concert room without having encountered anything unusual.

Does encountering "Long Liz" count as something unusual?

Baxter: Smith was very precise, and stated that he was carrying a parcel, done up in a newspaper, about 18in. in length and 6in. to 8in. in width.

Did Lave go outside not just for fresh air, but with the intention of selling some merchandise? Was the parcel "done up in a newspaper" because it had advertising on it, designed and printed in the Arbeter Fraint offices?

Cachous for sale!

[NotBlamedForNothing]

I would say not. We have numerous examples of press statements given in the third-person. Some begin in a first-person narrative, but, presumably in order to save space the editor condenses the interview into paraphrase. It is relatively common, here is another example, in my view.
We have to trust the editor has captured the correct intent of the interviewee.

Sorry, I meant is that a paraphrase, and one faithful to anything Fanny said? Did Fanny just happen to glance at her clock when Smith passed and remembered doing so, or do we have a journalist working with a combination of witness comments, assumptions, and arithmetic?

As good as Luukanen's artwork is, it needs an update.
At any given moment between 12:30-12:50 we can place several people in the street, all minding their own business, all being quiet, nothing happening out of the ordinary. The artwork doesn't reflect this.

Apologies - the artwork is by Jaakko Luukanen. Where was it originally published?

[Wickerman]

It appears that shortly before a quarter to one o'clock she heard the measured, heavy tramp of a policeman passing the house on his beat.

It appears? Did Fanny say that or not?

I would say not. We have numerous examples of press statements given in the third-person. Some begin in a first-person narrative, but, presumably in order to save space the editor condenses the interview into paraphrase. It is relatively common, here is another example, in my view.
We have to trust the editor has captured the correct intent of the interviewee.

As good as Luukanen's artwork is, it needs an update.
At any given moment between 12:30-12:50 we can place several people in the street, all minding their own business, all being quiet, nothing happening out of the ordinary. The artwork doesn't reflect this.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

It comes across as a little too precise, yes, but you've heard how people give estimates, like "it was two or three minutes later", or "three or four minutes after..."
I see the editor cutting the story down to save space by abbreviating her words without losing the intent, he only writes, "two minutes after", or "four minutes later".

Quite possible, but I still think that report should be approached with caution.

It appears that shortly before a quarter to one o'clock she heard the measured, heavy tramp of a policeman passing the house on his beat.

It appears? Did Fanny say that or not?

I misunderstood you with that picture, I thought you were posting Mortimer in her doorway, but had posted the picture the wrong way round
If that was Stride then I would ask why the artist shows her alone, even if it was intended to be seconds before BS-man comes along, he should be in the distance.

I see. Presumably Jeff Leahy understood that Stride cannot be supposed to have arrived at that spot the moment Schwartz enters the street.

Here's Fanny ...

https://forum.casebook.org/forum/ripper-discussions/witnesses/9509-packer-and-schwartz?p=498192#post498192

Here's the incident ...

https://forum.casebook.org/forum/ripper-discussions/witnesses/9509-packer-and-schwartz?p=498253#post498253

Smith, Stride and Parcelman ...

https://forum.casebook.org/forum/ripper-discussions/witnesses/9509-packer-and-schwartz?p=498416#post498416

[Wickerman]

...Taken literally, the heavy tramp report suggests that the Schwartz incident never happened. At least, not at around 12:45 on Berner St. However, it is worth considering how the timings in that report were arrived at, as I can't imagine Fanny saying it was about 4 minutes from locking up to hearing the cart.

It comes across as a little too precise, yes, but you've heard how people give estimates, like "it was two or three minutes later", or "three or four minutes after..."
I see the editor cutting the story down to save space by abbreviating her words without losing the intent, he only writes, "two minutes after", or "four minutes later".

That artwork is interesting as it seems to depict Stride at the gates prior to anyone else entering Berner St. How long had she been standing there? If the story reflects reality, why not suppose that she could have been there for 5 minutes or more?

I misunderstood you with that picture, I thought you were posting Mortimer in her doorway, but had posted the picture the wrong way round
If that was Stride then I would ask why the artist shows her alone, even if it was intended to be seconds before BS-man comes along, he should be in the distance.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Those pieces of artwork are really terrific.

Although, Mortimer doesn't say she saw no-one, she says she saw nothing unusual, which is not the same.

Agreed. In the EN interview, she says "... there was hardly anybody moving about, except at the club", which is not the same as saying there was nobody moving about.

If we take her statements verbatim, she claims in one account she was at her door about 12:30 am.
In another statement she says she heard the heavy tramp of footsteps just before quarter to one. Which means she was not at her door, she must have gone inside for a moment.
So for arguments sake, lets say she was at her door between 12:30 - 12:40?
She goes inside and hears footsteps pass her house, she then returns to the door (12:45?) intending to lock it, but stands there for 10 minutes (12:55?).
The street is quiet (except she mentions seeing Goldstein about this time), she locks the door and about 4 minutes later (12:59?) she hears Diemschutz cart come home.
On preparing to go to bed she hears a commotion and returns to the street....this was "just after 1 O'clock", by her estimates.

Taken literally, the heavy tramp report suggests that the Schwartz incident never happened. At least, not at around 12:45 on Berner St. However, it is worth considering how the timings in that report were arrived at, as I can't imagine Fanny saying it was about 4 minutes from locking up to hearing the cart.

Imagine she had told the reporter she heard the footsteps and then went to the door shortly before 12:45, and then stayed there for about 10 minutes. Now assume the reporter knows Louis' story (he does mention him), and therefore he 'knows' the sound of pony and cart was at 1am. Consequently, the reporter 'knows' there must have been a 4 minute gap between lockup and Diemschitz. Yet Fanny may have not thought the same. Alternatively, Fanny may have mentioned the gap, and the 10 minute vigil, and then starting at 1am the reporter works backward to conclude the time of the footsteps.

So, that report is not good news for Schwartz, but it is not conclusive either.

Given we have sporadic, yet normal activity in the street between 12:30 and 01:00, we can't say the street was empty of people, so the artwork, as good as it is, may not reflect reality.

That artwork is interesting as it seems to depict Stride at the gates prior to anyone else entering Berner St. How long had she been standing there? If the story reflects reality, why not suppose that she could have been there for 5 minutes or more?

[Wickerman]

I'd be happy to put the different hats down to the vagaries of eyewitness accounts.




So, where's Parcelman? He had been right where she's looking.

Those pieces of artwork are really terrific.

Although, Mortimer doesn't say she saw no-one, she says she saw nothing unusual, which is not the same.

If we take her statements verbatim, she claims in one account she was at her door about 12:30 am.
In another statement she says she heard the heavy tramp of footsteps just before quarter to one. Which means she was not at her door, she must have gone inside for a moment.
So for arguments sake, lets say she was at her door between 12:30 - 12:40?
She goes inside and hears footsteps pass her house, she then returns to the door (12:45?) intending to lock it, but stands there for 10 minutes (12:55?).
The street is quiet (except she mentions seeing Goldstein about this time), she locks the door and about 4 minutes later (12:59?) she hears Diemschutz cart come home.
On preparing to go to bed she hears a commotion and returns to the street....this was "just after 1 O'clock", by her estimates.

Given we have sporadic, yet normal activity in the street between 12:30 and 01:00, we can't say the street was empty of people, so the artwork, as good as it is, may not reflect reality.