Mrs. Fanny Mortimer, Time wrong?

[Cogidubnus]

Hi Diga

So assuming Blackwell's earliest timing of 1246 (which is pretty close to Schwartz), even on your accelerated basis of five minutes, then it's quite possible life eventually ceased as early as 1251 - well within Dr Blackwell's estimated TOD...

Again, ignoring the witness statements and going on the medical evidence alone, interesting isn't it?

All the best

Dave

[Digalittledeeperwatson]

Prolonged?

What does that mean in regards to a severed(partially) carotid artery? My understanding is that you bleed out fast. Maybe a couple minutes. So double that perhaps and you still looking at 5 min maybe? A professional opinion would be wonderfull.

[Cogidubnus]

Doctor Blackwell gave in his evidence (per The Times at least) his arrival time as 1.10am - he said he consulted his watch on arrival - however, he also apparently said he was summoned at 1.10am.

Edward Johnston, who was Blackwell's assistant arrived at the murder scene first by three or four minutes. He claimed to have been summmoned by a policeman about five or ten minutes past one, and says that "as soon as Dr Blackell came he looked at his watch. It was then 1.16"

It is likely therefore that the arrival time for Dr Blackwell at 1.10 was a mistranscription by the reporter from The Times... and in fact in the Telegraph of 3rd October, it does report that Dr Blackwell says 1.16.

Proceeding on that basis, Dr Blackstone's subsequent evidence is to the effect that he estimated the victim's time of death as between twenty minutes and half an hour before his arrival - and although accurate times are hard to pin down, taken purely at face value, this would suggest a murder between 12.46 and 12.56.

We've heard, on all sorts of threads, that blood was running down in the gutter to the drain etc...but Blackwell records that "There was a quantity of clotted blood just under the body".

The good doctor's evidence does suggest that owing to the botched throatcutting Liz Stride bled out comparatively slowly...this is in fact stated...could it be, therefore, that at 1.16 some of the blood was still viscous, and some clotted? This would indeed suggest a prolonged bleed out...and this being the case, what is there in the MEDICAL evidence to suggest Schwartz didn't witness the murder?

Note - I'm ignoring the witness evidence for now (more anon perhaps) - what in the MEDICAL evidence precludes the earlier time?

All the best

Dave

[Digalittledeeperwatson]

Ha ha ha!

Nevermind. I just caught my error. "Previously". Fatigue gets the best of everbody sometimes. So according to her account, as best as I'm able to figure currently, Goldstein passed no later than about 12:55-56 as Mortimer tells it. Thanks Michael.

[Digalittledeeperwatson]

From the witness section here on casebook under Fanny Mortimer

I think you better check that out Dig, its 12:55-56.

Cheers

"It was soon after one o'clock when I went out, and the only man whom I had seen pass through the street previously was a young man carrying a black shiny bag, who walked very fast down the street from the Commercial-road." My library is limited currently. Gots to go by what is available. Quotations are mine. Any other source(s) would be much appreciated. Thank you.

[Michael W Richards]

Fanny says she saw Goldstein just after 1:00. So I'd say her concept of time was different than others.

I think you better check that out Dig, its 12:55-56.

Cheers

[Digalittledeeperwatson]

In the witness section here

Fanny says she saw Goldstein just after 1:00. So I'd say her concept of time was different than others.

[Michael W Richards]

Hi Mike,

Where have I 'complained' that the murder evidence is as clear as anything but mud? I admit we don't even know if Stride's killer was seen or not.

But I have no problem with Fanny Mortimer missing the action if she is at her door "off and on" from approx 12.30 to 12.46, then continuously at her door from approx 12.46 to 12.56, when she goes back in, approx 4 minutes before she hears the pony and cart at approx 1am.

The killer could well have fled between 12.56 and 1am, or Diemshitz's instincts could have been spot on, and the killer could have been there hiding in the shadows when the pony and cart arrived, only fleeing when Diemshitz entered the club after finding the body.

Love,

Caz
X

Hi caz,

You do have a way of making a case for a Ripper in this murder in particular seem like the obvious choice, hence my statement. And I dont recall Fanny stating that she went back inside at 12:56...like you said above, she saw Goldstein at 12:55-56 and was at the door until 1am.

And if Fanny referred to her time at the door as "off and on" from 12:30 until 12:50, (when she spends the next 10 minutes consecutively at the door), why would you assume she wasnt at the door at a viable time to see either Liz Stride, the alledged Broadshouldered Man, or the Pipeman for that matter?

Schwartz says he approached people on the street in front of the gates engaged in a tussle...did the 3 of them just magically appear there at just the right time to be missed by Fanny, popping in and out? Isnt the more rational answer that if Schwartz was telling the truth at least 2 of the main characters in his story would have been out on the street as Schwartz approached, both before and after 12:45? Lets say we have a 2 minute window on either side of Israels timing to allow for the characters in his story to be hanging about in view. PC Smith saw Liz on the street at 12:35....did Fanny miss seeing all these people suddenly arrive after 12:35, even though her statement seems to indicate that she would have spent some time during that 15 minute segment until 12:50 viewing the street?

The reality is the street was deserted at 12:40, as attested to by Eagle and Lave...if you decide they told the truth of course. Fanny said the same about her time at the door continuously, the exception being Goldstein.

Summary? If Israel Schwartz told the truth then Fanny would have had to miss seeing any of the people in his story even though she spent some time at the door when they allegedly were in the street.

Youd like to trust Israel, and Diemshitz, and Eagle and Lave,....rather than perhaps a nosy neighbor who would have known the difference between a quiet night after a meeting and a noisier one...which all the neighbors said happened frequently after Saturday meeting...well past 1am.

Well, there is only 1 witness in the group of Israel Schwartz, Louis Diemshitz, Morris Eagle and Joseph Lave and Fanny Mortimer that has any corroborative statements. Goldsteins statement Tuesday night confirms Fannys sighting AND timing, and Browns young couple in likely the same young couple seen by Fanny.

Im sure you would rather not rely on magical appearances or unsubstantiated statements by anyone here caz.

Best regards

[caz]

Why is it that of Eagle, Diemshitz and Israel Schwartz Fanny Mortimer sees nothing, when she stated that she was at her door "off and on" from 12:30 until 1am, the last 10 minutes continuously? Why doesn't she see anyone leave via the gates...she is at her door during the period when Blackwell states the cut was made...where is that killer at 12:50?

Lots of questions...despite the continuing complaints from Caz and the like that this murder evidence is clear like a mountain stream.

Cheers

Hi Mike,

Where have I 'complained' that the murder evidence is as clear as anything but mud? I admit we don't even know if Stride's killer was seen or not.

But I have no problem with Fanny Mortimer missing the action if she is at her door "off and on" from approx 12.30 to 12.46, then continuously at her door from approx 12.46 to 12.56, when she goes back in, approx 4 minutes before she hears the pony and cart at approx 1am.

The killer could well have fled between 12.56 and 1am, or Diemshitz's instincts could have been spot on, and the killer could have been there hiding in the shadows when the pony and cart arrived, only fleeing when Diemshitz entered the club after finding the body.

Love,

Caz
X

[Digalittledeeperwatson]

A not completely unreasonble idea

If I do say so myself. What if what IS saw occured after Fanny went inside the last time? Stride couldn't have bled for 15min. So either she was attacked sooner to "1:00" or those who found her lied about that or they took much longer to take action than was related. Not many options. Sorry if attempt is too crude.

[Wickerman]

Hi Jon,

I dont expect that you would agree with virtually anything I might suggest, ....but there are some real fact avoidance issues below;

On the contrary Michael, I have been intrigued by a number of your thoughts and questions. In this case, I am not so compelled..

At that moment in time there is no doubt that the club was seen as anarchist by the local authorities...[edit].... They also are the same men that assault policemen in Dutfields Yard the following Spring, resulting in the arrest of Louis and Isaac, to name just 2.

Which tends to suggest they had little care about a confrontation with the authorities. On the one hand we are expected to believe 'The Club' organized false witnesses and a line of deception in order to avoid the attention of authorities. Now we are being told these same members of 'The Club' assaulted the police on the Club's property?

Not a consistent argument Michael.

Jon....the government at that time feared the growing number of disenfranchised Immigrants might rise up against them....fears fed handily by Bloody Sunday the year before.

The authorities actually prefer to monitor the radicals of society. You've heard the phrase, "Keep your friends close, but your enemies closer"?
If the police shut them down the remaining members will go underground.

This defeats the purpose, the authorities would sooner conduct surveillance and perhaps even infiltrate these groups rather than shut them down where both infiltration & surveillance become impossible.
You cannot monitor & control an enemy if you drive him underground.

Ive never said a member, or an anarchist killed Liz Stride Jon...Ive only said that if it was discovered that the murderer was at that club for whatever reason, of whatever ethnicity, (and because the murder takes place on their property),...they would suffer.

But its ok, to beat up coppers in your backyard?

[Michael W Richards]

Hi Jon,

I dont expect that you would agree with virtually anything I might suggest, ....but there are some real fact avoidance issues below;

I think the point is we do not know of a compelling reason.
Because a potential reason is suggested, here today, does not mean it was considered at the time.

At that moment in time there is no doubt that the club was seen as anarchist by the local authorities...(Id suggest checking that words' definition to see just how negative that assumption was), there is no doubt that it was known to have "low men" in the yard after 1am on meeting nights, and the Ripper investigations during the month of September were leaning towards a suspect that was an Immigrant Jew. They also are the same men that assault policemen in Dutfields Yard the following Spring, resulting in the arrest of Louis and Isaac, to name just 2.

They have very good reasons for wishing to avoid any further suspicions of wrongdoing or any legal complicity in this murder...and an ethnic makeup in the membership that was the same as the suspected ethnicity of the Ripper.

By way of example, if we did read that these clubs were being systematically closed down by the county & police for a variety of infractions then there may be some substance behind the suggestion.
As it is, this is not what is happening.

Jon....the government at that time feared the growing number of disenfranchised Immigrants might rise up against them....fears fed handily by Bloody Sunday the year before.

There is a difference between an anarchist being a murderer, and anarchists carry out murder in the name of anarchy.

Ive never said a member, or an anarchist killed Liz Stride Jon...Ive only said that if it was discovered that the murderer was at that club for whatever reason, of whatever ethnicity, (and because the murder takes place on their property),...they would suffer.

I can easily see a scenario where Liz Stride is waiting in the passage for someone inside the club, and a man who attended the meeting was in there with her...perhaps assuming, like so many Ripperologists, that she was seeking clients. She tries to blow him off rudely, he, having some drink in him, reacts violently. Done. Christian, Jewish, Atheist, whatever...if he kills on the clubs property it does become the clubs problem.

Cheers

[Michael W Richards]

Yes it is; perfectly plausible. 40% of the local population was Jewish. If there was a man outside the Club at that hour who was not it any way associated with it or its members, there is a 40% chance that he was Jewish.

Hi Bridewell,

If you remove the context that existed at that moment I can see your point....however, we are talking about a club that held a meeting that night to convince local Immigrant Jews that they should be Socialists. Almost everyone left at the club after the meeting are Immigrant Jews, and Israel Schwartz is also one....and he is supposedly just outside the gates when he claims to have seen the altercation. He says he was there because he was checking to see if his wife had moved what would amount to a suitcase or 2 of goods from their previous address to his new one.

It is unclear where he was staying before this move, but it is reported that he was staying on Berner Street...so it is within the realm of possibility that his "former" address was a cottage at 40 Berner. Which would likely make him a member of the club.

Circumstantially it would make perfect sense that he was at the meeting...or that he did stay in a cottage, otherwise, where did he live on Berner that would place him at that club at almost 1am?

Cheers

[DVV]

Hi Colin

A man she did see, but only from the rear. She formed an impression as to the man's age which, to her, appeared to be over 40, and she described him as foreign-looking.

It's already very difficult to tell the age of anybody, so in the dark and from the rear, when the man wears a deerstalker and is motionless...

I think Mrs Long is one of the more credible witnesses, because she admitted to uncertainty on some points.

Yes, she most probably saw the killer.

This, to me, lends weight to the points about which she claimed to have been sure - the time and the identity of the woman. She may have been mistaken, but there is nothing inherently ridiculous in what she claimed to have seen.

Imo she had Leather Apron in mind.

If you saw (for example) Alan Sugar from behind, would you be able to tell that he was over 40 and Jewish? I would have thought so.

!!!

All the best

[Wickerman]

Hi Michael.

I suppose the simplest way to state what Ive been suggesting here is to say that when assessing witness testimony its very relevant to know whether the witness would have any compelling reason to alter any of the story details.

I think the point is we do not know of a compelling reason.
Because a potential reason is suggested, here today, does not mean it was considered at the time.

People who stood to potentially lose either their employment, their residence, their social club and/or their reputation and/or freedom, depending on how this murder was perceived by the police....

But Michael, we don't know that.
It comes across to me as a contrived scenario with no historical backing.

By way of example, if we did read that these clubs were being systematically closed down by the county & police for a variety of infractions then there may be some substance behind the suggestion.
As it is, this is not what is happening.

There is a difference between an anarchist being a murderer, and anarchists carry out murder in the name of anarchy.
The police will see the difference if no-one else does, and only if the latter is the true cause then the club as a whole will come under scrutiny.
Anarchists may disrupt society with social unrest, strikes, and marches, but if they commit murder the target is typically a national figure, a leader or someone of influence.

Not a local prostitute/charwoman who nobody has ever heard of.