Mrs. Fanny Mortimer, Time wrong?

[Wickerman]

This remark was published in the Monday morning papers so the news went to print Sunday night. Therefore, sometime on Sunday Mrs Mortimer stood in conversation with this couple yet, the couple claimed they left the scene before the murder started - interesting.

It took some finding but here is the quote:

"From twelve o'clock till half-past a young girl who lives in the street walked up and down, and within twenty yards of where the body was found, with her sweetheart.

"We heard nothing whatever," she told a reporter this morning. "I passed the gate of the yard a few minutes before twelve o'clock alone. The doors were open, and, so far as I could tell, there was nothing inside then." "I met my young man (she proceeded) at the top of the street, and then we went for a short walk along the Commercial-road and back again, and down Berner-street. No one passed us then, but just before we said "Good night" a man came along the Commercial-road; and went in the direction of Aldgate."
Echo, 1st Oct.

Her closing words, though a little ambiguous, might suggest that she and her man were on Commercial Rd. somewhere west of Berner St. about the time of the murder, when they were passed by another man heading west.

[Michael W Richards]

I'm sure he meant Smith.

Swanson's report stating that Goldstein passed by at 'about 1' anchors the time Mortimer was at her door - at least the tail end of it. How long she was there up to that point or how many times she was in or out is speculative. As is reported, there are two versions offered.

The couple standing at the corner were probably not seen by Mortimer but rather something she had heard while talking to others.

Hi Hunter,

There are a few misleading statements above ....for one, Fanny stated the night of the murders that she was at her door "nearly the whole time between half-past twelve and one o'clock ", which she later amended to be at her door "off and on" during that period. She also stated without reservation that she was at her door "continuously" from 12:50 until 1am. She did not see anyone but the young couple and later Goldstein, which Goldstein's statement Tuesday night and pass timing of approx 12:55-56 corroborates. The only speculation regarding her time at the door and what she didnt see is made by people who believe the stories of unsubstantiated events that occurred in front of the gates during that time. Who, in order to facilitate that belief, must claim that Fanny missed seeing it...or hearing it. Like Louis arriving at 1am for example....or Israels altercation.

She stated regarding the young couple..." A young man and his sweetheart were standing at the corner of the street, about twenty yards away, before and after the time the woman must have been murdered, but they told me they did not hear a sound." So, she saw them and spoke with them personally afterward.

Im still amazed that people choose to disparage a witness that has substantiated statements to the plethora of club members who do not. Like Lave, Eagle,.... most probably a member, Schwartz,.. and certainly one, Louis.

None of those witness have any other witness statement that corroborates their stories. Not even each others, in the case of Lave and Eagle, who both claimed to be in the same location at the same time and didnt even see each other.

And yet all of them had a stake in how this murder was perceived.

Cheers

[Cogidubnus]

Light in a dark place?

Translation issue is fine. She was deep into to the passage. If the body couldn't be seen without striking a match..... And no blood trail. Throat was slit where body was found.

She was only five or six feet into the passage...her feet were just cleared by the gates when they were later shut...so consider Schwartz's two statements:-

Firstly to the police on 30th September:-

The man tried to pull the woman into the street, but he turned her round and threw her down on the footway

Then to the Star, 1st October:-

The Hungarian saw him put his hand on her shoulder and push her back into the passage

If one accepts the footway he meant was that leading into the yard, then there is no inconsistency there, and it is possible that he could indeed have seen Liz yanked by the scarf, throat slit and cast down in one rapid movement...

The scarf was cut/frayed along its lower edge, and there was a stream of blood running from the body towards the kitchen door of the building...could some of it have been arterial spray?

Whatever he saw, it certainly frightened him off...

All the best

Dave

[Digalittledeeperwatson]

And

Two different versions of where the attack occured? Footpath and sidewalk? How far was Stride in again?

[Digalittledeeperwatson]

One is fine the other not so much

It could have been a translational issue dig...or possibly if her throat was cut as she was "hurled" to the ground...

Just a thought

Dave

Translation issue is fine. She was deep into to the passage. If the body couldn't be seen without striking a match..... And no blood trail. Throat was slit where body was found.

[Cogidubnus]

three times but not very loudly

It could have been a translational issue dig...or possibly if her throat was cut as she was "hurled" to the ground...

Just a thought

Dave

[Digalittledeeperwatson]

Well, if one can cry out not loudly then anything is possible.

[Wickerman]

The couple standing at the corner were probably not seen by Mortimer but rather something she had heard while talking to others.

On a sideline, Mortimer does say that, "...they told me they did not hear a sound."

Had Mortimer discussed this with the couple afterwards?

Does this mean the couple stayed at the scene while the investigation unfolded that night, or does it mean Mortimer knew the couple and discussed the crime hours afterwards?

This remark was published in the Monday morning papers so the news went to print Sunday night. Therefore, sometime on Sunday Mrs Mortimer stood in conversation with this couple yet, the couple claimed they left the scene before the murder started - interesting.

[Wickerman]

I'm sure he meant Smith.

I did, sorry to everyone for that

[Wickerman]

Are you suggesting that Lamb would've walked on by a BSM beating up on a Stride? If that was the case then Kidney's comments would have been spot on.

Did Smith say he had to intervene in any of the squabbles & rows he witnessed?

We can't be sure of course but the incident in the gateway may have been less physical than Schwartz led the police to believe. It is not certain by any means that Schwartz witnessed a murder.
And, another opinion was also given to the press:

".. It was thought by the person who witnessed this that it was a man and his wife quarrelling, and consequently no notice was taken of it. "

We only have the Schwartz version, was the altercation truly violent, or only what people witnessed on a regular basis in this part of the East End?

[Hunter]

I'm sure he meant Smith.

Swanson's report stating that Goldstein passed by at 'about 1' anchors the time Mortimer was at her door - at least the tail end of it. How long she was there up to that point or how many times she was in or out is speculative. As is reported, there are two versions offered.

The couple standing at the corner were probably not seen by Mortimer but rather something she had heard while talking to others.

[Cogidubnus]

Are you suggesting that Lamb would've walked on by a BSM beating up on a Stride? If that was the case then Kidney's comments would have been spot on.

Hi dig

PC Lamb wasn't on a beat that took him up Berner Street, but on one that took him along Commercial Road past the end of the road. He'd last passed it six or seven minutes before he was summoned to the club...

PC Smith was on that beat, and he'd last passed the premises at about 12.35 when he observed a couple standing talking (who we may surmise were Liz and possibly her killer)...

So it looks as if, at no time that night, did any copper walk past an affray in Berner Street!

All the best

Dave

[Digalittledeeperwatson]

Hullo Wickerman

Are you suggesting that Lamb would've walked on by a BSM beating up on a Stride? If that was the case then Kidney's comments would have been spot on.

[Wickerman]

Hi Jon

I wonder if what Fanny Mortimer heard wasn't a copper passing by, but one of the players in the Schwartz scenario leaving the scene... If she subsequently went to her door for about ten minutes between say 12.45/12.50 and 12.55/1.00, per the press report you've found, it would explain how she managed to miss all the action...and would tie in neatly with both Goldstein and Diemschutz (he passed a clock in a shop window just up the road didn't he, making his arrival just after 1.00am?)...

I'm struggling to keep an open mind, but the more I think about it, the more I'm thinking Schwartz saw the beginning of the murder...it COULD be later of course, but....

All the best

Dave

Indeed Dave.

It would, of course, have helped if Mrs Mortimer had offered direction to those footsteps, up the street, or down the street?

Eagle did claim to have seen men and women in the street when he returned to the Club, estimated to have been about 12:40 am.

Lave was out about the same time but saw nothing unusual, which doesn't mean he saw no-one.

Mortimer claimed a couple were standing at the corner of Fairclough St. And, saw Goldstein walk across the road sometime before 1:00 am.

Even PC Smith had claimed Berner St. was normal as he walked up just minutes before he was called:
"There were squabbles and rows in the streets, but nothing more."
(Does this confirm what Schwartz saw?)

We can see the street was not considered devoid of people in the minutes before the murder. Stride could well have been one of the women in the street seen by these various witnesses, so she could have entered the yard just after Lave & Eagle entered the Club. Mrs Mortimer opens her door and takes the air for about ten minutes being unaware that a couple were around the corner already in Dutfields Yard?

I'm more in favor of trying to fit all the pieces together rather than reject what appears contradictory. Give all the witnesses the benefit of the doubt, including Mortimer & Schwartz.

[Cogidubnus]

Hi Jon

I wonder if what Fanny Mortimer heard wasn't a copper passing by, but one of the players in the Schwartz scenario leaving the scene... If she subsequently went to her door for about ten minutes between say 12.45/12.50 and 12.55/1.00, per the press report you've found, it would explain how she managed to miss all the action...and would tie in neatly with both Goldstein and Diemschutz (he passed a clock in a shop window just up the road didn't he, making his arrival just after 1.00am?)...

I'm struggling to keep an open mind, but the more I think about it, the more I'm thinking Schwartz saw the beginning of the murder...it COULD be later of course, but....

All the best

Dave