Mrs. Fanny Mortimer, Time wrong?

[Wickerman]

This is the full account of the article I referred to in another thread:

"A woman who lives two doors from the club has made an important statement. It appears that shortly before a quarter to one o'clock she heard the measured, heavy tramp of a policeman passing the house on his beat. Immediately afterwards she went to the street-door, with the intention of shooting the bolts, though she remained standing there for ten minutes before she did so. During the ten minutes she saw no one enter or leave the neighbouring yard, and she feels sure that had any one done so she could not have overlooked the fact. The quiet and deserted character of the street appears even to have struck her at the time. Locking the door, she prepared to retire to bed, in the front room on the ground floor, and it so happened that in about four minutes' time she heard the pony cart pass the house, and remarked upon the circumstance to her husband. Thus, presuming that the body did not lay in the yard when the policeman passed-and it could hardly, it is thought, have escaped his notice-and presuming also that the assassin and his victim did not enter the yard while the woman stood at the door, it follows that they must have entered it within a minute or two before the arrival of the pony trap. If this be a correct surmise, it is easy to understand that the criminal may have been interrupted at his work. The man who drove the cart says he thinks it quite possible that after he had entered the yard the assassin may have fled out of it, having lurked in the gloom until a favourable moment arrived."
Daily News, 1st Oct. 1888.

If Mortimer stood at her door for 10 minutes between 12:40-45 until 12:50-55, then, after that she heard the approach of the cart about four? minutes later, there is a slim window of time when this murder could have happened.

The article suggests that Stride may have arrived at the yard in those four? minutes, however, as I have conjectured previously, Stride may have already been in the yard, in the shadows with a client, while Mortimer stood at her door.
Was the "measured heavy tramp" not a policeman but the Broad-shouldered man staggering passed Dutfields Yard?

We might question her subsequent claim: "Immediately afterwards she went to the street-door", as Mortimer makes no claim to seeing anyone, constable or citizen, in the street when she opened her door.

[Cogidubnus]

Relative time....

It matters big time though when it comes to assessing the validity of the witness statements dig - if they're all on different time estimates for example...

Now T.O.D. - well PC Henry Lamb describes Doctor Phillips as arriving roughly ten minutes after he did (he was alerted in Commercial Road "about 1 o'clock as near as I can tell")...The good doctor and his assistant say that he arrived at 1.16...Swanson's summary of the evidence says about 1.10...

Make of it what you will...Nonetheless Blackwell states explicitly in his Inquest evidence that he estimates T.O.D. as being twenty minutes to half an hour before...implying, per his own timings, 1246 to 1256...now I don't know whether the TOD can be that closely estimated, nor do I know how close the Blackwell Household timepieces were to the timings of, say, the Mortimer household or Israel Schwartz...

Clearly if all the witnesses are honest, then there's something askew between Fanny Mortimer's timings and Israel Schwartz's...my own guess (and it's only that), is that when Goldstein made his high speed pass, witnessed by Fanny Mortimer, Liz was already dead and concealed by the shadows in the yard...

All the best

Dave

[Digalittledeeperwatson]

Smart post Cogi

The only thing I'll say is that Blackwell estimated TOD using his watch. So even if it wasn't in sync with anything else it doesn't really matter. If we can piece together how the events unfolded that evening, the "time" they occured doesn't really matter.He arrived 1:16. Initially he said no more than 20 min ago. Later it was changed to 20-30 min from his arrival. Something about first guesses are usually correct, pops in my head. I gots a feeling that Stride was murdered closer to the 20 min mark than the 30. Being gracious, 12:51ish-12:56ish. With some leg work and expert opinion it maybe possible to narrow it down to about a 3 min window. Does anyone know the temp for that evening?

[Cogidubnus]

So reread posts 111 - 127 and imagine 1240-1300 (say) just might be the time of the murder...and Diemschutz might've arrived 1250 to 0110 (I'm trying to be fair in allowing what some would say to be, generous, others conservative, leeway here)...so who's upset?

We all posit these times and look for everybody to be behaving with clockwork efficiency - it ain't like that...timings are exceeding approximate...if I recall correctly it wasn't too many years before there was about a 20 minute discrepancy between Bristol time and London time - bugger me if that didn't create "difficulties" with train pathings when the Great Western Railway connected the two!

It was only the electric telegraph which enabled that to be got around...And even long after that, people in non-time-critical situations had only the haziest appreciation of time...

So...getting back to the thread...was Fanny Mortimer mistaken about the time? Almost certainly yes...So most probably was almost every other bugger, barring the professionals like Blackwell (and even with them, there's no absolute guarantee how often or accurately their timepieces were corrected - think please...no time signals, no radio transmissions, no telegraph...just the chime of a nearby local clock whose possibly Lurch-like caretaker may or may not have been in the least conscientious - even assuming he could maybe hear Big Ben)

All the best

Dave

[Digalittledeeperwatson]

Hullo DRoy.

Dig,

Sure, it could be that simple. But why can not one person verify Schwartz's story? There were people between 12:30 and 1:00 and yet nobody saw what Schwartz saw or heard anything. I think it's just as easy to say there is something wrong with Schwartz's statement.

As I've said before, maybe Mortimer didn't see the attack because it didn't happen. Is it really that much of a stretch?

Cheers
DRoy

Why didn't anyone see him or anything he saw? Because he was the only one on the street. It seems the best fit for that is after Mortimer went inside. No one saw Dimshitz although Fanny seems to have heard hs arrival. And it is just as easy to see something wrong with his statement. Now whether it is as likely is another matter. And no it isn't that much of a stretch. You said it with the word imagination. I'm not sold on IS by any means. I'm simply looking for a mundane explanation for how the events could've unfolded. I'm gonna try and lay out a timeline in the near future for this scenario. And thanks for the conversating on this. I think it's a cogent possibility. I'm not married to it. Just diddling the fiddle.

[DRoy]

I think the notion of Schwartz arriving after the last time Fanny went inside, then Dimshitz showing up provides a decent enough explanation of the possible chain of events. Dimshitz arrived before 1:00, Blackwell's time. How far before is tough to figure though. Dimshitz maybe arriving between 12:51 and 12:56. Depends on how much deliberating and running around the club members actually did. I'm inclined, at least slightly anyways, that that process took a little more time than some would believe it would. Effectively, there is just different people's different concepts of time that clash. That's all. It's one way to view it that requires nothing more than the rearranging of the order of events, instead of deciding which to keep and which to toss.

Dig,

Sure, it could be that simple. But why can not one person verify Schwartz's story? There were people between 12:30 and 1:00 and yet nobody saw what Schwartz saw or heard anything. I think it's just as easy to say there is something wrong with Schwartz's statement.

As I've said before, maybe Mortimer didn't see the attack because it didn't happen. Is it really that much of a stretch?

Cheers
DRoy

[caz]

You constantly omit the fact that we have witnesses, within 1 hour of 1am, telling the police then the press that they were summoned to the passageway about 10 minutes after half past 12. It is believed by many that Louis says that he and Isaac Kozebrodski left together after 1am.....so why then does Isaac say he left alone at Louis's insistence soon after he arrived in the passageway, about 10 minutes after half past 12?.? And we have Fanny statement to inform us that if he had arrived before 12:45 its possible she wasnt at her door....she was there off and on until 12:50, the steadily from 12:50 until 1.

Hang on, Mike. We have Mortimer's statement to inform us that she heard Diemshitz's arrival despite not being at her door at the time; she remarked upon it to her husband; and she timed it as about four minutes after she went indoors for the last time. Diemshitz himself times it at 1am. So if you toss his story out as rubbish, you have to toss hers out too, and frankly I would have thought the police would have noticed a fifteen minute discrepancy like that if all the other evidence pointed to him arriving by 12.45 and telling such a whopper. He could have said he didn't notice the time and thought it was around 1am if he was trying to pull a fast one, but he seemed quite sure.

And once again, this has absolutely nothing to do with any theory I may have about the killer (none of which depend on when Stride was attacked or which witnesses saw what), and everything to do with how you decide on the timings to suit your theory, and your theory only. But carry on if you think it will get you anywhere fast.

Love,

Caz
X

[Digalittledeeperwatson]

I think the notion of Schwartz arriving after the last time Fanny went inside, then Dimshitz showing up provides a decent enough explanation of the possible chain of events. Dimshitz arrived before 1:00, Blackwell's time. How far before is tough to figure though. Dimshitz maybe arriving between 12:51 and 12:56. Depends on how much deliberating and running around the club members actually did. I'm inclined, at least slightly anyways, that that process took a little more time than some would believe it would. Effectively, there is just different people's different concepts of time that clash. That's all. It's one way to view it that requires nothing more than the rearranging of the order of events, instead of deciding which to keep and which to toss.

[drstrange169]

"... we have witnesses, within 1 hour of 1am, telling the police ... that they were summoned to the passageway about 10 minutes after half past 12."

That's something I'd love to see!
If police reports did exist, they would probably have corrected the errors in the newspapers and we wouldn't be talking about speculative notions that don't add up.

[Michael W Richards]

Heres my response Caz;

C: I don't think I even mentioned the ripper in the post which you address here. But no matter. Firstly, Fanny Mortimer estimated that she had been indoors for four minutes when she heard what she believed to be Louis Diemshitz's pony and cart going past and mentioned the fact to her husband. Diemshitz said he arrived at the yard at 1am. As far as I am aware, there is no evidence to suggest that either Diemshitz or the Mortimers were lying or totally mistaken about this, so you'd have to twist what evidence there is in order to argue otherwise. Your choice, but it wouldn't be mine.

Ive pointed out Caz that there are in fact statements that contradict Louis's story and timing, at least 3 provided within 1 hour of the murder. I dont know of any that contradicts Mortimers other than the fact she is at her door until 1am and doesnt see or hear a cart and horse, which supposedly arrives at 1.

C: Secondly, I assume Mortimer wasn't at her door at a viable time (or position) to see Stride, BS man, Pipeman or Stride's killer (if someone else) because she herself said she saw none of the above! We know for a fact that Stride didn't fall into Berner St from the sky and that somebody attacked her, so Mortimer missed the main action one way or another.

Thats called wishful thinking I believe, in the hope that this Israel Schwartz fellow was actually on the level. Which isnt substantiated at the Inquest. Fanny didnt just miss all the action Caz....its far more probable that there was far less to see than we have been told.

C: Look Mike, I only know that Stride was there; someone murdered her with a single cut to the throat; and Mortimer saw nothing untoward. I happily leave it to you to figure out the exact timings of the various potential witnesses and to judge their reliability, and reach your own conclusions.

Thats fair, and since I have statements that support an earlier arrival by Diemshitz and the knowledge that he is in deep do-do when a women is murdered on a club he is the steward of, which gives him a motive for modifying his story to exonerate the club, I can make some sensible guesses.

C: And if Schwartz was perjuring himself for the good of the club, everyone involved was jolly lucky that a dozen Fannies didn't all come forward to swear they had been peeking through their curtains the whole time and saw nothing of the sort.

True, but on that street the club was a frequent source of noise and "low men" after meetings in that yard...I suppose most of the residents wanted nothing to do with anything on the street in front of the club near 1am...or were sleeping themselves.

C: That's a bit rich, if I may say so Mike. You want Diemshitz to have made a magical appearance some fifteen minutes earlier than the evidence indicates, and not to have been seen or heard by Mortimer at that time. Then you want him to have put the 'fluence on Mortimer so she magically heard a ghostly pony and cart at a time to fit in with his own story. You could be the next Susan Hill.

You constantly omit the fact that we have witnesses, within 1 hour of 1am, telling the police then the press that they were summoned to the passageway about 10 minutes after half past 12. It is believed by many that Louis says that he and Isaac Kozebrodski left together after 1am.....so why then does Isaac say he left alone at Louis's insistence soon after he arrived in the passageway, about 10 minutes after half past 12?.? And we have Fanny statement to inform us that if he had arrived before 12:45 its possible she wasnt at her door....she was there off and on until 12:50, the steadily from 12:50 until 1.

Frankly Caz youre just ignoring information so you can remain convinced of whatever your beliefs are....Im sure something like a single killer of 50 over 10 years or the like.

Cheers

[caz]

Hi caz,

You do have a way of making a case for a Ripper in this murder in particular seem like the obvious choice, hence my statement. And I dont recall Fanny stating that she went back inside at 12:56...like you said above, she saw Goldstein at 12:55-56 and was at the door until 1am.

And if Fanny referred to her time at the door as "off and on" from 12:30 until 12:50, (when she spends the next 10 minutes consecutively at the door), why would you assume she wasnt at the door at a viable time to see either Liz Stride, the alledged Broadshouldered Man, or the Pipeman for that matter?

Hi Mike,

Apologies for the long delay in replying.

I don't think I even mentioned the ripper in the post which you address here. But no matter. Firstly, Fanny Mortimer estimated that she had been indoors for four minutes when she heard what she believed to be Louis Diemshitz's pony and cart going past and mentioned the fact to her husband. Diemshitz said he arrived at the yard at 1am. As far as I am aware, there is no evidence to suggest that either Diemshitz or the Mortimers were lying or totally mistaken about this, so you'd have to twist what evidence there is in order to argue otherwise. Your choice, but it wouldn't be mine.

Secondly, I assume Mortimer wasn't at her door at a viable time (or position) to see Stride, BS man, Pipeman or Stride's killer (if someone else) because she herself said she saw none of the above! We know for a fact that Stride didn't fall into Berner St from the sky and that somebody attacked her, so Mortimer missed the main action one way or another.

Schwartz says he approached people on the street in front of the gates engaged in a tussle...did the 3 of them just magically appear there at just the right time to be missed by Fanny, popping in and out? Isnt the more rational answer that if Schwartz was telling the truth at least 2 of the main characters in his story would have been out on the street as Schwartz approached, both before and after 12:45? Lets say we have a 2 minute window on either side of Israels timing to allow for the characters in his story to be hanging about in view. PC Smith saw Liz on the street at 12:35....did Fanny miss seeing all these people suddenly arrive after 12:35, even though her statement seems to indicate that she would have spent some time during that 15 minute segment until 12:50 viewing the street?

Look Mike, I only know that Stride was there; someone murdered her with a single cut to the throat; and Mortimer saw nothing untoward. I happily leave it to you to figure out the exact timings of the various potential witnesses and to judge their reliability, and reach your own conclusions.

Summary? If Israel Schwartz told the truth then Fanny would have had to miss seeing any of the people in his story even though she spent some time at the door when they allegedly were in the street.

And if Schwartz was perjuring himself for the good of the club, everyone involved was jolly lucky that a dozen Fannies didn't all come forward to swear they had been peeking through their curtains the whole time and saw nothing of the sort.

Im sure you would rather not rely on magical appearances or unsubstantiated statements by anyone here caz.

That's a bit rich, if I may say so Mike. You want Diemshitz to have made a magical appearance some fifteen minutes earlier than the evidence indicates, and not to have been seen or heard by Mortimer at that time. Then you want him to have put the 'fluence on Mortimer so she magically heard a ghostly pony and cart at a time to fit in with his own story. You could be the next Susan Hill.

Love,

Caz
X

[Digalittledeeperwatson]

A shame

I never had the pleasure as I am a rather recent addition to the collective. I am very appreciative of my inclusion into this endeavour. Thanks everybody.

[DVV]

I think I'm really starting to miss PhilH now.

Don't tell. I'm shedding tears.
Bet you he will be back soon, though. (I foresee him splitting new hair in my crystal ball.)

I personally miss Sam Flynn, AP, Nats, Linda, and many more.

[Digalittledeeperwatson]

Hullo DVV

I know that in 2013 no expert can make a more precise estimation.
That's an impossible task, Dig.
It's now up to each of us to believe Schwartz or not, to choose between "disturbed by Diemshutz" and "afraid that Lipski would summon a policeman".
Personally, I vote for the latter.

Cheers

That seems quite the reasonable conclusion. You knowing does not exclude the possibility that one in this unholy year could provide any insight and useful expertise into the the murder of Elizabeth Stride. Impossibilities function as a restriction. To say, one can not know because one was not there. That's bollocks. I'm simply saying that an expert's analyses , with what data we have, might remove one minute from the timefame. It may not make any difference to some, but the more accurate we are the less room for error exists. I think I'm really starting to miss PhilH now.

[DVV]

when Goldstein whizzed past I think Liz Stride was laying dead in the shadows...
Dave

Agreed, agreed, agreed.