Mrs. Fanny Mortimer, Time wrong?

[Cogidubnus]

Richard Nunweek and I have been discussing the Schwartz evidence. We know Israel Schwartz was Jewish...we also know that the Schwartz evidence has been frequently discredited on the grounds of "who moves house in the early hours of Saturday morning?"

We're surmising that maybe Schwartz and his wife were observant Jews and moved house, by religious necessity after nightfall on Saturday evening 29th September.

Neither of us can recall seeing this posited here before...apologies if someone else has spotted this

All the best

Dave

[lynn cates]

Credo

Hello Dave. Thanks.

10 minutes I can believe.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

Eygle eyes

Hello DLDW. Thanks.

"I think so. At least to a certain extent."

So, she was unreliable to an extent?

Lave and Eygle claimed to be about during the period she was out. Did she see them?

Or did she see Liz chatting up parcel man? What about PC Smith?

Cheers.
LC

[Wickerman]

I'm a little confused as to whether the Fixed Point policeman No 426H, had just finished his fixed point stint, (due to end at 1am), or was just coming up for it...either way the timings are approximate...they have to be in the LVP...

Hello Dave.

Stewart was kind enough to share two copies of different references with me of rules pertaining to the Fixed Point Duty, that it did indeed run from 9:00 pm until 1:00 am. PC Lamb was correct, but perhaps a misprint recorded the duty as from "9 to 5", it was 9 to 1.

The Times, 3rd Oct:
Witness. - I was not on the beat; but I passed the Commercial-road end of the street some six or seven minutes before I was called. When I was fetched I was going in the direction of Berner-street. Constable Smith is on the Berner-street beat. The constable who followed me down is on fixed-point duty from 9 to 5 at the end of Grove-street. All the fixed-point men ceased their duty at 1 a.m., and then the men on the beats did the whole duty.

It has been suggested that the duty may have been enhanced by four more hours (9 to 5) due to the recent crimes, but it is more likely just a misprint. In fact Insp. Reid confirms that Point Duty terminated at 1:00 am.

The Morning Advertiser, 3rd Oct, words it a little different:
Witness. - I was coming towards Berner-street. Police-constable Smith is on the Berner-street beat. There is a constable on fixed-point duty at the corner of Grove-street, Commercial-road, and he came off duty at one a.m. The man on the beat then has to do his duty.

So the constable who accompanied PC Lamb, that being Constable 426H, had just come off Point Duty at 1:00 am. They were both walking back westward towards Berner St. when they met the two witnesses.

From this we can only guess how many minutes the three constables may have chatted at Grove St. before Lamb & 426H walked back. You'll notice that in the Times we read it was "6 or 7 minutes" since PC Lamb passed the end of Berner St., in the Morning Advertiser we read "perhaps ten minutes" , so who knows.

[Cogidubnus]

Hi Lynn

Brown seems to have indicated that Liz was spotted around the time her fracas began with BSM.

Mortimer? Is she even reliable?

Well I think Brown may be a minute or two out at 1245 (ish)....but he seems to have been sufficiently alert that he was aware when the balloon went up at 1 o'clock (ish)

I think Mrs Mortimer may've been maligned...The Daily News and London Evening News stories imply she was at the door for about ten minutes only...much more believable than the curiously similar accounts published in the Times, the Illustrated Police News and the East London Advertiser, which as I stated in post #159 just have to be some kind of agency feed..

All the best

Dave

[Digalittledeeperwatson]

Mortimer reliable?

Hullo Lynn. I think so. At least to a certain extent. She is the only static individual on the street who has a view. I think she is reliable to the extent the she was in and out between 12:30-1:00. Nothing more. If something occured that she didn't witness then she was inside. The only thing that can be verified is when Goldstein passes through.

[lynn cates]

You pays your money . . .

Hello Dave. Thanks.

You may buy what you like--it's your money (heh-heh)

Brown seems to have indicated that Liz was spotted around the time her fracas began with BSM.

Mortimer? Is she even reliable?

Cheers.
LC

[Cogidubnus]

Sorry Lynn but I'm not buying into the club members conspiring to lie about the time the body was discovered. Brown and Mortimer would seem to preclude that by being on the scene at awkward times; And why must we assume that Schwartz would be in league with the club hirarchy?

We have no evidence for that...what we do have though is an environment where if you pick ten people at random off the street, four of them are likely to be Jews...the vast majority of whom are leading quiet inoffensive lives like Israel Schwartz...

All the best

Dave

[Cogidubnus]

Hi Lynn

More troubling is PC Lamb's "A few minutes until 1.00." Recall, the club members had to run to him and Dimshits had to probe, light matches, etc. and go into the club before they were despatched. 1.00 is right out.

Well as pointed out earlier in the thread, there are at least three slightly differing accounts of PC Lamb's timings...the one in the Times states "about 1 o'clock as near as I can tell".

I'm a little confused as to whether the Fixed Point policeman No 426H, had just finished his fixed point stint, (due to end at 1am), or was just coming up for it...either way the timings are approximate...they have to be in the LVP...

I think the sequence of events is reasonable though

All the best

Dave

[lynn cates]

leading

Hello Don.

"I would suggest that even more likely the knife the Star reported was the result of a leading question or three."

Precisely. (Think I may love you. heh-heh)

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

When life is a Leman.

Hello CD.

"Would all of the club members be in on the conspiracy and know exactly what to say to the police so they were all on the same page?"

Highly doubtful. Likely, only the upper echelons.

"If not, it seems to me that it would have been quite easy for someone to put their foot in their mouth."

I think some did--Lave and Kosebrodski, perhaps?

"The result? Well, the club would have some serious "splainin" to do."

Which is PRECISELY what I think happened at Leman st. station.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

poker face

Hello Abby.

"If they' had something to do with the murder they could have dumped the body somewhere else and keep quiet. . ."

Yes, and risk getting caught with a dead body.

1. Caught lying about dead body? Perjury, perhaps.

2. Caught with dead body? The gallows.

". . . or like I said could have just used Diemshitz and not Schwartz as the gentile seeing witness."

Some people are good liars; others, not. Perhaps Dimshits was very poor--no poker face?

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

embroidery

Hello Dave. Thanks.

Regarding the transition from pipe to knife, an embellishment is possible. I maintain that the papers would not weave from whole cloth--but, they were not above a bit of "embroidery."

Spooner and Kozebrodski? Umm, Spooner was only guessing at the time; Kozebrodski was a kid (no offense to the young).

More troubling is PC Lamb's "A few minutes until 1.00." Recall, the club members had to run to him and Dimshits had to probe, light matches, etc. and go into the club before they were despatched. 1.00 is right out.

Cheers.
LC

[Supe]

Dave,

that said dagger could be a simple mistranslation.

I would suggest that even more likely the knife the Star reported was the result of a leading question or three. Having worked (shame of it all) as a journalist most of my adult life, I can imagine just how the conversation went as the Star reporter sought something sensational. That the newspaper did go beyond the bounds of propriety might be one reason why it sought to disavow the validity of the Schwartz story just days later.

Don.

[Sox]

Thanks. I just find the whole club conspiracy angle bordering on the ridiculous.

I'm going to have to agree with you Abby, being an anarchist/socialist and gathering to put the world to rights over a few beers, is a million miles away from a hangmans noose. As Mr Evans pointed out, a lot can happen is fifteen minutes, and it would be an error I think to mistake confusion for conspiracy.

I also agree that using newspaper reports, over police reports, is a mistake. Sensationalism was starting to rear it's ugly head in the press with the advent of these murders. C.D is quite right, the repercussions from club members lying to the police would have been severe, we are no longer talking about trivial charges like disturbing the peace here.

As everyone knows, eye witnesses are notoriously unreliable. It is entirely possible that the timing is incorrect, however, that does not mean that the chain of events is wrong, or that witnesses are outright lying.