Mrs. Fanny Mortimer, Time wrong?

[Michael W Richards]

Hi Mike,

Where have I 'complained' that the murder evidence is as clear as anything but mud? I admit we don't even know if Stride's killer was seen or not.

But I have no problem with Fanny Mortimer missing the action if she is at her door "off and on" from approx 12.30 to 12.46, then continuously at her door from approx 12.46 to 12.56, when she goes back in, approx 4 minutes before she hears the pony and cart at approx 1am.

The killer could well have fled between 12.56 and 1am, or Diemshitz's instincts could have been spot on, and the killer could have been there hiding in the shadows when the pony and cart arrived, only fleeing when Diemshitz entered the club after finding the body.

Love,

Caz
X

Hi caz,

You do have a way of making a case for a Ripper in this murder in particular seem like the obvious choice, hence my statement. And I dont recall Fanny stating that she went back inside at 12:56...like you said above, she saw Goldstein at 12:55-56 and was at the door until 1am.

And if Fanny referred to her time at the door as "off and on" from 12:30 until 12:50, (when she spends the next 10 minutes consecutively at the door), why would you assume she wasnt at the door at a viable time to see either Liz Stride, the alledged Broadshouldered Man, or the Pipeman for that matter?

Schwartz says he approached people on the street in front of the gates engaged in a tussle...did the 3 of them just magically appear there at just the right time to be missed by Fanny, popping in and out? Isnt the more rational answer that if Schwartz was telling the truth at least 2 of the main characters in his story would have been out on the street as Schwartz approached, both before and after 12:45? Lets say we have a 2 minute window on either side of Israels timing to allow for the characters in his story to be hanging about in view. PC Smith saw Liz on the street at 12:35....did Fanny miss seeing all these people suddenly arrive after 12:35, even though her statement seems to indicate that she would have spent some time during that 15 minute segment until 12:50 viewing the street?

The reality is the street was deserted at 12:40, as attested to by Eagle and Lave...if you decide they told the truth of course. Fanny said the same about her time at the door continuously, the exception being Goldstein.

Summary? If Israel Schwartz told the truth then Fanny would have had to miss seeing any of the people in his story even though she spent some time at the door when they allegedly were in the street.

Youd like to trust Israel, and Diemshitz, and Eagle and Lave,....rather than perhaps a nosy neighbor who would have known the difference between a quiet night after a meeting and a noisier one...which all the neighbors said happened frequently after Saturday meeting...well past 1am.

Well, there is only 1 witness in the group of Israel Schwartz, Louis Diemshitz, Morris Eagle and Joseph Lave and Fanny Mortimer that has any corroborative statements. Goldsteins statement Tuesday night confirms Fannys sighting AND timing, and Browns young couple in likely the same young couple seen by Fanny.

Im sure you would rather not rely on magical appearances or unsubstantiated statements by anyone here caz.

Best regards

[Digalittledeeperwatson]

In the witness section here

Fanny says she saw Goldstein just after 1:00. So I'd say her concept of time was different than others.

[Michael W Richards]

Fanny says she saw Goldstein just after 1:00. So I'd say her concept of time was different than others.

I think you better check that out Dig, its 12:55-56.

Cheers

[Digalittledeeperwatson]

From the witness section here on casebook under Fanny Mortimer

I think you better check that out Dig, its 12:55-56.

Cheers

"It was soon after one o'clock when I went out, and the only man whom I had seen pass through the street previously was a young man carrying a black shiny bag, who walked very fast down the street from the Commercial-road." My library is limited currently. Gots to go by what is available. Quotations are mine. Any other source(s) would be much appreciated. Thank you.

[Digalittledeeperwatson]

Ha ha ha!

Nevermind. I just caught my error. "Previously". Fatigue gets the best of everbody sometimes. So according to her account, as best as I'm able to figure currently, Goldstein passed no later than about 12:55-56 as Mortimer tells it. Thanks Michael.

[Cogidubnus]

Doctor Blackwell gave in his evidence (per The Times at least) his arrival time as 1.10am - he said he consulted his watch on arrival - however, he also apparently said he was summoned at 1.10am.

Edward Johnston, who was Blackwell's assistant arrived at the murder scene first by three or four minutes. He claimed to have been summmoned by a policeman about five or ten minutes past one, and says that "as soon as Dr Blackell came he looked at his watch. It was then 1.16"

It is likely therefore that the arrival time for Dr Blackwell at 1.10 was a mistranscription by the reporter from The Times... and in fact in the Telegraph of 3rd October, it does report that Dr Blackwell says 1.16.

Proceeding on that basis, Dr Blackstone's subsequent evidence is to the effect that he estimated the victim's time of death as between twenty minutes and half an hour before his arrival - and although accurate times are hard to pin down, taken purely at face value, this would suggest a murder between 12.46 and 12.56.

We've heard, on all sorts of threads, that blood was running down in the gutter to the drain etc...but Blackwell records that "There was a quantity of clotted blood just under the body".

The good doctor's evidence does suggest that owing to the botched throatcutting Liz Stride bled out comparatively slowly...this is in fact stated...could it be, therefore, that at 1.16 some of the blood was still viscous, and some clotted? This would indeed suggest a prolonged bleed out...and this being the case, what is there in the MEDICAL evidence to suggest Schwartz didn't witness the murder?

Note - I'm ignoring the witness evidence for now (more anon perhaps) - what in the MEDICAL evidence precludes the earlier time?

All the best

Dave

[Digalittledeeperwatson]

Prolonged?

What does that mean in regards to a severed(partially) carotid artery? My understanding is that you bleed out fast. Maybe a couple minutes. So double that perhaps and you still looking at 5 min maybe? A professional opinion would be wonderfull.

[Cogidubnus]

Hi Diga

So assuming Blackwell's earliest timing of 1246 (which is pretty close to Schwartz), even on your accelerated basis of five minutes, then it's quite possible life eventually ceased as early as 1251 - well within Dr Blackwell's estimated TOD...

Again, ignoring the witness statements and going on the medical evidence alone, interesting isn't it?

All the best

Dave

[Michael W Richards]

Hi Dave, Dig,

Youre asking Dave, If I understand you correctly, is there some evidence in the wound received that would preclude a cut time earlier than 12:46-56, as per Blackwells guesstimate.

Well, Dr Bagster Phillips arrived the scene at around 1:20 to assist Dr Blackwell, and he said regarding her time of death...Coroner: "How long had the woman been dead when you arrived at the scene of the murder, do you think?" - Phillips: "Within an hour she had been alive."

Apparently Dr Phillips allowed for the possibility of a slower bleedout rate, likely due to the partial severance of the carotid.

As you look closer at this issue of time discrepancies its interesting to see that there is some substance to a theory that the cut, and the discovery, were earlier than stated by some.

Cheers fellows

[Digalittledeeperwatson]

Spooner

Spooner stated the blood was flowing when he arrived and that PC Lamb arrived about 5 min after him. It had apparently stopped by PC Lamb's arrival. Would've been nice if they would've paid attention to when she stopped bleeding. Amongst many other things.

[drstrange169]

Can anyone point me to clinically tested medical evidence that supports the idea that a doctor can precisely pinpoint a death to a time within 20 to 30 thirty minutes.

"It is futile mentioning any time in units of less than an hour, even when the death was quite recent.
A medical witness who attempts to determine the time of death from temperature estimation in minutes or fractions of hours is exposing himself to a severe challenge to his expertise which may well amount to near ridicule, thus denegrating the rest of his evidence".
Department of Forensic Medicine, University of Dundee

If current wisdom states the above, how much less knowledge did a Victorian doctor have? Blackwell's time of death should not be regarded with any more authority than Mrs M's estimate of time of day.

Phillip's "within the hour" is the ONLY credible medical evidence we have, with regards to t.o.d.

[DVV]

Doctor Blackwell gave in his evidence (per The Times at least) his arrival time as 1.10am - he said he consulted his watch on arrival - however, he also apparently said he was summoned at 1.10am.

Edward Johnston, who was Blackwell's assistant arrived at the murder scene first by three or four minutes. He claimed to have been summmoned by a policeman about five or ten minutes past one, and says that "as soon as Dr Blackell came he looked at his watch. It was then 1.16"

It is likely therefore that the arrival time for Dr Blackwell at 1.10 was a mistranscription by the reporter from The Times... and in fact in the Telegraph of 3rd October, it does report that Dr Blackwell says 1.16.

Proceeding on that basis, Dr Blackstone's subsequent evidence is to the effect that he estimated the victim's time of death as between twenty minutes and half an hour before his arrival - and although accurate times are hard to pin down, taken purely at face value, this would suggest a murder between 12.46 and 12.56.

We've heard, on all sorts of threads, that blood was running down in the gutter to the drain etc...but Blackwell records that "There was a quantity of clotted blood just under the body".

The good doctor's evidence does suggest that owing to the botched throatcutting Liz Stride bled out comparatively slowly...this is in fact stated...could it be, therefore, that at 1.16 some of the blood was still viscous, and some clotted? This would indeed suggest a prolonged bleed out...and this being the case, what is there in the MEDICAL evidence to suggest Schwartz didn't witness the murder?

Note - I'm ignoring the witness evidence for now (more anon perhaps) - what in the MEDICAL evidence precludes the earlier time?

All the best

Dave

Perfect post, Dave.

Schwartz has most probably witnessed the first action of the murder.

He bolted, and BSM dispatched Liz (and got away).

If it happened at 12:45, as Schwartz has estimated, Liz was dead for at least 10 minutes when Diemshutz arrived.

Cheers

[Digalittledeeperwatson]

The bleeding

Perfect post, Dave.

Schwartz has most probably witnessed the first action of the murder.

He bolted, and BSM dispatched Liz (and got away).

If it happened at 12:45, as Schwartz has estimated, Liz was dead for at least 10 minutes when Diemshutz arrived.

Cheers

An expert's opinion would be very helpful. I am not certain but even with a partially severed carotid artery I don't think someone with that type of injury will bleed for 10-15 mins. An expert is needed to give a timeframe. Partially severed tends to make some think it is not a big deal apparently. Severed or partially makes you dead and bled quickly. Not an expert, but that's how I understand it. Second doctor who arrived said the death may have been quite slow, about a minute and a half.

[DVV]

An expert ?
What for ?
Bleeding or not, she was already dead, and died quickly.
No estimated TOD can prove BSM innocent, that's what Dave and I meant.

Cheers

[Digalittledeeperwatson]

Hullo

What for? To determine or narrow down the range of time Stride's throat could've been cut. I am not attempting to absolve "BSM" of possibly killing Stride. Trying to determine as close as possible the time she was cut. And you know "what for" the reason for doing such is, don't you, know what for?