Mrs. Fanny Mortimer, Time wrong?

[Wickerman]

Hi Dave.

So it doesn't attribute theatrical attire too him...just says he was well dressed and in the (unsupported) view of the reporter "had the appearance of being in the theatrical line" - whatever that means - do you suppose that means he was dressed as the opera singer in the "Go Compare" adverts?

Stagehand, lighting, ticket sales, sweeper-up, or leading man?

You're quite right, and with the Star as our only source for this, caveat emptor!

[Stewart P Evans]

Once you've started...

Once you've started fantasizing about what Mrs Mortimer may or may not have done, seen, heard, etc., etc., why not publish your conclusions, like Donald McCormick (in full fantasy mode) did -

"Mrs Mortimer, of 36 Berner Street, which was only four doors away from where Stride's body was found, had stood at the open door of her house 'sometime between 12.30 and 1 am to get a breath of air.' She heard 'some sort of a row', but thought it was in the International Workers' Club.
'It wasn't like an argument, though there was something like a stifled cry, or an angry voice. Then there was a bump; it must have been the body falling.
'Leastways, now I come to think about it, I suppose that's what it was. Didn't strike me that way at the time. Before I could properly tell what it was I saw a young man [ooh, young man!] carrying a black shiny bag, walking very fast down the street...'

The new Complete Jack the Ripper A To Z, in the entry on Mrs Mortimer, states (page 360) - 'Robin Odell, in Jack the Ripper: In Fact and Fiction, gives an unsourced and as yet untraced reference to Mrs Mortimer's stating that while in her doorway, prior to Goldstein's passing down the street, she heard a row going on somewhere; a bump, and a stifled cry.'

Well, now they know the source of Odell's piece.

[Cogidubnus]

Hello again Jon

You got me thinking about that theatrical attire, and where it came from. As far as I can see, the only origin for it is the Star article...when it comes to it, quite a lot of our knowledge of the Schwartz story seems to stem from there...

Information which may be important was given to the Leman-street police late yesterday afternoon by an Hungarian concerning this murder. This foreigner was well dressed, and had the appearance of being in the theatrical line. He could not speak a word of English, but came to the police-station accompanied by a friend, who acted as an interpreter. He gave his name and address, but the police have not disclosed them. A Star man, however, got wind of his call, and ran him to earth in Backchurch-lane.

So it doesn't attribute theatrical attire too him...just says he was well dressed and in the (unsupported) view of the reporter "had the appearance of being in the theatrical line" - whatever that means - do you suppose that means he was dressed as the opera singer in the "Go Compare" adverts?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F_-9QFvhQWo

Myself I'd prefer to go with Fred Abberline's description given on 1st November "A strong jewish appearance"

Incidentally if the police were keeping Schwarz's address quiet (which I'm sure they'd do anyway) so as to specifically protect him, I can't see them being that happy that the Star reporter not only tracked him down, but helpfully published his approximate whereabouts too!

All the best

Dave

[Cogidubnus]

Nothing invested...

Fair enough Jon...As I said I don't regard it as particularly important...just an interesting little possibility...I'm surprised that nobody's raised the other one though...that the checking on his wife making the move, is some kind of cover-up for their doing the proverbial moonlight flit!

Now if that were the case, getting tangled up with the law might've been the last thing he wanted!

All the best

[Wickerman]

But it only says "during his absence" - You see I do wonder why he could possibly be in doubt over whether his wife had moved or not, given that she'd had all day to do it,..

Excuse me for jumping in here Dave but, how do you know she had all day to make the move?
Was she organizing others to make the move, or manhandling their possessions herself?

and they probably didn't own much...

Probably?
I wouldn't have a clue about the extent of their possessions. If Schwartz can afford to dress up in 'Theatrical' attire, the Schwartz's may not have been short of a bob or two.

Perhaps though, if they were observing the Sabbath, in so far as not labouring on it (he perhaps with friends), she might only have had the Saturday night in which to effect the move.

That too.
All things considered, there is very little known to enable anyone to draw a conclusion, don't you think?

[Cogidubnus]

Hi Gwynneth

Yes, you're quite right. The explanation doesn't appear in the official report, and is therefore derived from the Star article:-

It seems that he had gone out for the day, and his wife had expected to move, during his absence, from their lodgings in Berner-street to others in Backchurch-lane. When he came homewards about a quarter before one he first walked down Berner-street to see if his wife had moved.

But it only says "during his absence" - You see I do wonder why he could possibly be in doubt over whether his wife had moved or not, given that she'd had all day to do it, and they probably didn't own much...Perhaps though, if they were observing the Sabbath, in so far as not labouring on it (he perhaps with friends), she might only have had the Saturday night in which to effect the move.

It's of no import either way...just an odd thought arising out of a casual conversation with Richard...

All the best

Dave

[curious4]

While he was away

Richard Nunweek and I have been discussing the Schwartz evidence. We know Israel Schwartz was Jewish...we also know that the Schwartz evidence has been frequently discredited on the grounds of "who moves house in the early hours of Saturday morning?"

We're surmising that maybe Schwartz and his wife were observant Jews and moved house, by religious necessity after nightfall on Saturday evening 29th September.

Neither of us can recall seeing this posited here before...apologies if someone else has spotted this

All the best

Dave

Hello Dave,

Except that he said he was going out for the day and that his wife was planning to move their lodgings while he was away. He was only in Berner street to check whether she had moved their belongings as planned, not to move house. I don't think an orthodox jew would have gone out for the day (presumably on business) on the sabbath.

Best wishes,
C4

[lynn cates]

I'm falling!

Hello Stephen, DLDW. Just so they don't fall onto the footpath. The resulting pain might cause them to scream three times--albeit not too loudly.

Cheers.
LC

[richardnunweek]

Hi,
For the benefit of Steven, I should like to explain.
Dave and myself were discussing the Stride murder in chat, and the matter of Schwartz came about. and we had a theory which Dave explained earlier, which appears to give some added credence to his tale.
We were talking generally about witnesses throughout the case, and what, if any one, could be considered genuine.
The thread ''Was the killer a Jew'', which I started today, actually derived from that conversation.
You are of course welcome to crack jokes, at least on my part, after some 14 years with Casebook, my hide has thickened.
Regards Richard,

[Cogidubnus]

Hello Harry

As you say, given a minute or two...all the timings have to be viewed as approximate...The BS attack (whether it's the fatal one or not) happens very suddenly and abruptly doesn't it?

All the best

Dave

[harry]

Schwartz says he turned into Berner Street from Commercial road at 12.45.So Brown,Stride and pipeman were at the other end of the street,Allowing a minute or two difference in the time given by Brown or/and Schwartz,enough time for the scene to change,for Stride,BS and Schwartz to be at the yard entrance,pipeman at the corner,Brown home and Mortimer indoors.Can't be any other way?

[Cogidubnus]

If the blind leadeth the blind they fall into the ditch together.

Ok you've had your one permitted cheap personal dig...now try saying something remotely intelligent

All the best

Dave

[Digalittledeeperwatson]

If the blind leadeth the blind they fall into the ditch together.

Yeah, but only if there be a ditch. Also, if there were enough blind people eventually the ditch would fill up and the following blind people could just walk over the ditched blind people. Problem solved.

[Stephen Thomas]

Richard Nunweek and I have been discussing the Schwartz evidence. We know Israel Schwartz was Jewish...we also know that the Schwartz evidence has been frequently discredited on the grounds of "who moves house in the early hours of Saturday morning?"

If the blind leadeth the blind they fall into the ditch together.

[Wickerman]

[QUOTE=Investigator;268757]

Totally Agree, C. D.

I do not subscribe the the BS-man being her killer, I can't rule it out totally because in all honesty I (we) simply do not know. But, the timing and the circumstances to me are all wrong.

Wik. Perhaps I can answer your queries on another thread, As Stewart remarks this is off target on this thread.
I'll leave it to you to start it - I'm not familiar with the procedure . Regards D.G.

You wish a thread to debate whether Broadshoulder man murdered Liz Stride?

Ok, I'll create one.