Mrs. Fanny Mortimer, Time wrong?

[Wickerman]

Although this still leaves matters somewhat open I favour an earlier (ie pre 1250) rather than later (approx 1.00am) time, because it gives just that bit more time for clotting to become as established as it apparently had...

Hi Dave.
Our scientific estimates probably reflect an ambient temperature somewhat warmer than existed that night in October. The cold cobbles likely made the blood clot sooner - just a thought

Hello Jon

You'll not be surprised, I assume, if I concur with Abby?

All the best

Dave

Not at all surprised Dave, no.
I think most should accept the "yes" argument, I just have reservations about the assault being so early. Unless BS-man stayed with Stride for 5 minutes or so, then sliced her throat. Thats always possible.
I don't buy the slice to her throat being done as early as 12:45-50, more like 12:55-1:00 in my opinion.

I suggested two solutions, a "yes" or "no", but I also have a "maybe" that I didn't offer.

[Wickerman]

.... Now if someone suggests the attack IS saw took place at 12:45, but the murder occured later then I'm definetly on board that ship

That is what I have been toying with for a while. I'm not comfortable with the assault seen by Schwartz as the initial act which led to her murder, though I do recognise that it appears the simplest solution.

Oh, by the way, black grapes thin your blood

[Cogidubnus]

Hello Dig

Bleed out with one partially severed carotid artery takes, according to all the accounts I've seen, between a minute and a half and three minutes. In this case the doctor estimated a minute and a half. Eight pints of blood in a minute and a half...the medics call it a slow bleed out, but it's still rapid by yours and my standards. I don't believe Liz was actively still bleeding when Diemschutz arrived...some residual oozing perhaps, or a glistening of blood that gave that effect.

Let's be honest, Diemschutz didn't report even seeing blood when he first saw the body..he says he only saw blood when he returned to the yard from the club...and he only saw the true extent of the wound when he returned from Grove Street with Spooner, and the latter lifted Stride's chin exposing the wound, (incidentally spilling some blood from that wound in doing so)....

Even were we assuming the murderer struck an instant before Diemschutz arrived, and allowing just a couple of minutes to explain himself in the club and return, Liz had bled out before he got back from the clubhouse and certainly well beyond all reasonable doubt before he returned with Spooner...so I think we can ignore anything based upon the fact that she was apparently still bleeding...she wasn't...

The next evidence to look at then is clotting...As early as PC Lamb's arrival some blood was still liquid and some congealed. If his testimony is to be believed Doctor Blackwell's arrival at 1.16 was about ten minutes after his own, (perhaps 1.06 as a coarse approximation)...I suppose the question is would there still be some liquid blood (furthest from the body) twenty minutes after the murder, would there be extensive clotting (closest to the body) about ten minutes after the murder. There was a lot of blood between the body and the back door (at least two quarts or four pints - arterial spray perhaps?)...Much depends of course on the temperature, humidity and the composition of the blood itself, but the accounts I've seen seem to suggest that, albeit a generalisation, visible clotting usually begins between 10 and 15 minutes after bleedout...

Although this still leaves matters somewhat open I favour an earlier (ie pre 1250) rather than later (approx 1.00am) time, because it gives just that bit more time for clotting to become as established as it apparently had...

Hello Harry

With regard to James Brown's timings, if closing time was definitely imminent, then yes he might be a bit more alert to his timings...but do we know the time the chandlers shut? If McCarthy's is anything to go by, a lot of these corner shops were open until 2.00 or 3.00 in the morning. As we don't know either way, then at present I prefer to regard Brown's timing estimate as a simple retrospective reconcilliation based upon estimated timings back from 1.00am...

Hello Jon

You'll not be surprised, I assume, if I concur with Abby?

All the best

Dave

[Digalittledeeperwatson]

Order of operations.

A key piece to this is Stride was bleeding when found. She could not have bled for 15 min. Prob not 10. If IS's story is truthfull and accurate, and Dimshitz arrived when he said, Stride still could not have been murdered that early. My opinion is that the bleeding is the most important aspect. And yes, yes, partially severed carotid artery, blah blah. The bleed out in around 3 min. Call it 5 and it is still too long. So there is something wrong here about Stride being murdered at 12:45. Now if someone suggests the attack IS saw took place at 12:45, but the murder occured later then I'm definetly on board that ship

[Abby Normal]

It is to some degree ironic that the most vilified witness in the Stride case, next to Packer, is Mrs Mortimer, who's words actually confirm the claims of Diemshutz.

Mortimer claims to have stepped outside "just after one o'clock", in response to the commotion, and that the last person she saw before she "came indoors" was Goldstein, and that she came in at "one o'clock".

Goldstein gave a statement at Leman-street and Swanson makes note of the time of his claim, "about 1 a.m.".

Obviously then, as Goldstein knew nothing about any commotion as he passed Dutfields Yard "about 1 a.m.", and Mrs Mortimer responded to the commotion by coming outside "just after one o'clock", then the time window for the arrival of Diemshutz is rather tight, and cannot possibly be shifted forward by 15 minutes.

The question that needs to be asked is, was Stride laying in the entrance to Dutfields Yard while Goldstein walked passed?

- If the answer is "yes", then she was also laying there while Mortimer stood at her door on her 10 minute(?) vigil, and the statement by Schwartz may be accepted, and he must have witnessed the beginning of her murder.

- However, if the answer is "no", then the statement by Schwartz can be dismissed but, we must find a way to have Stride arrive, be assaulted, and Diemschutz discover the body all, in "about four minutes" (Mortimer).

The first one wick!

[Wickerman]

Somewhere, I can't find it currently, I read PC Lamb stated just before 1:00 he was found by the men from TIWC and called to Dutfields Yard. If this is accurate, do you think Fanny and Goldstein would be more likely to be accurate than a PC? Who has more stake to know the time?

More at stake but no better means?

P.C. Lamb's words are reported slightly different depending which version you choose.

In the Daily Telegraph he is reported as saying, "shortly before one o'clock,".

In the Daily News we read:
"At about one o'clock on Sunday morning last I was in Commercial-road between Christian-street and Batty-street,.."

Then in The Times, we have:
"About 1 o'clock, as near as I can tell,..."

But that is the whole point isn't it, "how could he tell?".
Lamb does not say he owned a watch, very few constables could afford a watch, so most likely P.C. Lamb referenced the same Tobacconists clock referred to by Diemshutz.

So did P.C. Lamb say 'before one', or 'about one', or only 'as near as he could tell' (ie; guess, due to him not looking at a watch)?

All the stated times are approximations except those provided by the medical men, but as I have offered before in other debates, when the 'times' fail us it is the sequence of events which help determine what occurred.

And, the sequence places Mortimer at her door for a while (10 mins?) before Goldstein passed, and Goldstein made no mention to Swanson of any commotion at the gateway as he passed. The time given by Goldstein is quite independent of the statement by Mortimer.

You may notice an extra detail provided by PC Lamb:
"...but I passed the Commercial-road end of the street some six or seven minutes before I was called. When I was fetched I was going in the direction of Berner-street. Constable Smith is on the Berner-street beat. The constable who followed me down is on fixed-point duty from 9 to 5 at the end of Grove-street. All the fixed-point men ceased their duty at 1 a.m., and then the men on the beats did the whole duty."

I hi-lite in bold the important piece, and that the change of duty had already taken place and Pc Lamb was headed back towards Berner St.

[Digalittledeeperwatson]

Hullo Harry.

My opinion,but the person I favour to be the more accurate as to the time,was Brown.I believe he would have been anxious,at that time of morning to make sure that he was not late for closing time,and would have verified the time before leaving home.Allowing a minute or two either way,I doubt his time of 12.45 was far out.

Interesting. I shall go and review. Thanks.

[harry]

My opinion,but the person I favour to be the more accurate as to the time,was Brown.I believe he would have been anxious,at that time of morning to make sure that he was not late for closing time,and would have verified the time before leaving home.Allowing a minute or two either way,I doubt his time of 12.45 was far out.

[Digalittledeeperwatson]

Hullo Wickerman and all.

Somewhere, I can't find it currently, I read PC Lamb stated just before 1:00 he was found by the men from TIWC and called to Dutfields Yard. If this is accurate, do you think Fanny and Goldstein would be more likely to be accurate than a PC? Who has more stake to know the time? And once again all these times given are only approximations and none has been proven to been verified to be in sync with anyone else's. There is one time. 1:16 Blackwell. By his watch.

[Wickerman]

It is to some degree ironic that the most vilified witness in the Stride case, next to Packer, is Mrs Mortimer, who's words actually confirm the claims of Diemshutz.

Mortimer claims to have stepped outside "just after one o'clock", in response to the commotion, and that the last person she saw before she "came indoors" was Goldstein, and that she came in at "one o'clock".

Goldstein gave a statement at Leman-street and Swanson makes note of the time of his claim, "about 1 a.m.".

Obviously then, as Goldstein knew nothing about any commotion as he passed Dutfields Yard "about 1 a.m.", and Mrs Mortimer responded to the commotion by coming outside "just after one o'clock", then the time window for the arrival of Diemshutz is rather tight, and cannot possibly be shifted forward by 15 minutes.

The question that needs to be asked is, was Stride laying in the entrance to Dutfields Yard while Goldstein walked passed?

- If the answer is "yes", then she was also laying there while Mortimer stood at her door on her 10 minute(?) vigil, and the statement by Schwartz may be accepted, and he must have witnessed the beginning of her murder.

- However, if the answer is "no", then the statement by Schwartz can be dismissed but, we must find a way to have Stride arrive, be assaulted, and Diemschutz discover the body all, in "about four minutes" (Mortimer).

[Cogidubnus]

Hi Harry

Dunno about the ten minutes, (sounds excessive to me, and it may just be political polemic after the dust has settled on the events), but of course it's possible they hit the police patrol lines at just the wrong time. PC Lamb was alerted, as Investigator states, on Commercial Road between Christian Street and Batty Street...he'd passed the Commercial Road end of Berner Street just six or seven minutes earlier...so they were perhaps a little unfortunate.... I don't think I've ever seen the night-time "beats" for this area described/mapped/timed (like the Mitre Square ones) and it'd be interesting if anyone has these details or knows where they might be found.

Hi dig

Well I'd place the murder a little time earlier at 1245/50 (veering slightly towards the earlier time) but I'm not disagreeing with your basic premise, (barring my acceptance of Diemschitz arriving just after 1am - he could at least fairly claim to have seen a clock!)...but the exact timings are so diffficult because of most folks very casual attitude towards time...I have to keep reminding myself that not knowing in advance that they'd be called on as witnesses in a murder case, they'd have no reason at all to accurately note the passing of time, except perhaps afterwards as a retrospective attempt to reconcile what they'd seen and when...until the hue and cry it was just another Saturday night in the East End.

Hi Investigator

Well I don't disagree your approximate timing of the TOD - I'd be happier 1245 ish, but like you I'm fundamentally happier with a slightly earlier time than one nearer 12.55/1.00am which is the traditional take.

But there we seem to part company, because I can't see any evidence at all to suggest that Diemschitz arrived earlier than 1am and the hubbub was earlier than 1 am or soon after - Firstly Mrs Mortimer's testimony of being at the door continuously (and seeing nothing except Goldstein) from say 1250-ish to 1.00 am-ish - following which she went indoors and only then heard Diemschutz's horse - Secondly Goldstein who corroborates Mrs Mortimer, and saw no huge kerfuffle outside the club in passing, and thirdly Brown, (who if your timings are correct would surely have dropped his dinner in surprise instead of going home and stolidly eating it until hearing the hullabaloo when he'd nearly finished!), fourthly Schwartz, for whom there is no evidence whatever he told anything but what he saw, (freely admitting his own cowardice in the process), and finally the club members Wess, Lave and Diemschutz who again, unless you have proof otherwise, probably told what they saw as the truth...(I think Spooner told the truth too, and Kozebrodsky - just with their timings out a little further than everyone elses).

I see no evidence whatsoever of any cover-up among the Jews, and in fact, initially, the opposite...they panicked and went scurrying like headless chickens for the police.

Of course, over the course of the next few days the leaders of the club and Arbeiter Fraint Editorial team recovered their bluster and started playing the big bad socialists/anarchists (which they certainly weren't by comparison with the serious baddies elsewhere in the city)...hence the complaining tones, and "wise after the event" flavour of that same publication when the dust had started to settle - but this lay in the future - this was the early hours of Sunday morning, and there is nothing to suggest they were anything but confused and frightened...

If the club members were really that cunning or devious, they could have simply shut the gate, loaded the body on Diemschutz's cart (handily on the spot), covered it up, then later on quietly disposed of it...or just got Dienscutz to conveniently "see" a murderer fleeing...either would be far less convoluted...but they didn't and this to me speaks volumes. So why assume nearly everybody is lying, when there's no proof whatever to suggest it, and when by allowing just a little leeway to allow for the (by necessity) approximate timings, such evidence as there actually is fits together reasonably well?

Believe me It's all too easy to read conspiracy theories into virtually any of these killings...(I've found myself doing it!). But I'd suggest it might be a more fruitful use of our time and labours trying to see how we can simplify the slightly twisted skeins of evidence around these killings, rather than needlessly complicate them further!

All the best

Dave

[harry]

Investigator,
If the three men who went for a policeman, ran for ten minutes before finding one,they must have covered a great deal of territory.Then there was the time needed for the policeman found to get to the murder scene.Something a little odd there,surely.

[Digalittledeeperwatson]

An early attempt...

1:16 Blackwell arrives. About 1:06 Lamb arrives. About 1:03 Lamb is found to be brought back. About 1:00 men head North from Dutfields Yard. About 12:57 Dimshitz arrives, goes inside, match, etc. Stride is bleeding then. Upon Lamb's arrival he shouldn't like to say she was. Stride DID NOT bleed for 15 minutes. Probably more like 3-5. 3-5 being the maximum amount of time she would've been bleeding. So Stride is murdered between 12:52 and 12:57. This is prelim. Gots maths to do. Oh, Fanny goes inside around 12:53. Go on, tell me it's unreasonable. I dare you. Heh heh heh.

[Investigator]

Hi All,
Have read through your posts and maybe this “evidence” could help your discussion.
(1) PC Henry Lamb, 252 H was the first policeman to arrive at Dutfields Yard and reported at the inquest, “… shortly before one o'clock, I was on duty in Commercial-road, between Christian-street and Batty-street, when two men came running towards me and shouting. …I ran, followed by another constable - 426 H….I am not on the Berner-street beat, but I passed the end of the street in Commercial-road (towards Christian St.) six or seven minutes before I was called.” The Daily Telegraph, October 3, 1888
Re. P.C. 426H - I seem to have read somewhere that he was the “fixed Point” policemen and about to go off duty at 01.00 hrs
(2) This is attributed to the club secretary, presumably Wess. “…Complaint is also made (that a delay) was experienced in obtaining a policeman, and it is alleged that from the time the body was discovered fifteen minutes had elapsed before a constable could be (brought) from Commercial-road. This charge against the police, however, requires confirmation.” The Echo 1 Oct. 1888
(3) Isaac Kozebrodsky had this to say; "I came into the club … at half-past twelve o'clock. Shortly after I came in Diemschitz asked me to come out into the yard, as he saw there was something unusual had taken place there. … I immediately went for a policeman, and ran in the direction of Grove-street, but could not find one. Then I went into the Commercial-road, where I found two policemen. I brought them back with me, and they sent for a doctor.” The Evening News Oct 1, 1888
(4) “...Dimshits, Eygel and Gilyarovsky ran to look for a policeman; ten minutes later they had found a pair of peace-keepers. One of the policemen ran for a doctor, and Morris Eygel ran to the police station on Leman Street to report the murder....” Der Arbeter Fraint" October 5, 1888. It is interesting that no mention is made of Kozebrodsky and Gilyarovsky is Gidleman
This adds up to a reported finding of Elisabeth’s body close to 12.45 am and agrees roughly with Spooner’s and Kozebrodsky’s statements. Diemshitz, Lave (Jaffa) and Eagle have distorted the time of events. Diemshitz’s (as Club Steward) placing avid emphasis of a 01.00 discovery that induced a mind-set influencing bystanders’, including the Press (and many Ripperologists).

Estimating TOD. The medical profession in 1888 knew only too well the inaccuracy of estimating a time of death. The indicators for estimating time of death at that time were (and still are in part); body stiffening (rigor mortis), temperature loss rate (algor mortis) and discolouration (livor mortis). Because these markers do not emerge until at least one hour, it is possible that Blackwell also took into consideration, blood clotting time in his estimation of TOD.
After establishing the absence of vital signs, an estimate of a time-frame in which death could have occurred would have been determined from the last time the person was seen alive. Blackwell would have asked the on-lookers’ When was the body discovered? Can anyone vouch for the absence of the body? He checked body temperature – it was still warm, he checked the rigidity of the face muscles & jaw – still loose. Conclusion – She was alive an hour ago. So the precise times set by Blackwell had little physiological basis beyond the times provided by the Berner Street boys. However, Phillips reports at the inquest of making a point of watching for the time markers of death as they emerged on the body when it was in the mortuary. No revision of TOD was put forward at the inquest to negate their previous estimate.
My guess is; Elisabeth was involved in an incident at about 12.40, she had her throat cut about 12.42, died about 12.46, discovered between these times and the police arrived at the murder site at about 01.00.
Schwartz tells the story but didn’t witness the events himself, some of which is pure fabrication (e.g. drunken man) and someone in the Club knows all about it. Also, Deimshitz may not have been the first to discover the body. His wife’s statement in the press says “He at once sent for a policeman.” Morning Advertiser. 2 October 1888. Slip of the tongue, perhaps!

An impression is given by various Club members that two parties left to find police at the same time, but this is incorrect. One party went to Grove Street, consisting of Kozebrodsky and Gilyarovsky, (Gidleman or Gilleman) it may have been Deimshitz, returning with Spooner who states he met, “… two Jews came running along, calling out "Murder" and "Police." The second party set off in the direction of Commercial Road after the return of the unsuccessful group. This consisted again of Isaac Kozebrodsky accompanied by Eagle. For this reason, there was a delay in bringing the police to the murder site in Berner Street. Deimshitz stayed behind the second time possibly to orchestrate and distort the timing of events to shield the club. Among such distortions could include putting grapes in Elisabeth’s hand, then removing them on realizing it is inconsistent that she should have had snacks to occupy both hands at one time. If such action is true, then Deimshitz was aware of BS man’s purchase of grapes and is attempting to implicate him in the murder. Happy hunting, D.G.

[Cogidubnus]

Hi Michael

Have you ever read Jerry White's "London in the 19th Century"?

It's a fascinating book, full of figures, full of colour and life, and among the facts I gleaned from it is that London's Jewish population expanded threefold between 1880 and 1900, largely due to the flood of immigrants from the pogroms...

Ok they weren't all in Whitechapel by any means, but a large number would've naturally gravitated to the East End...for example by the end of the 19th Century "nearly four out of every five Russians and Poles in London - 42,000 people - lived in the western portions of the Metropolitan Borough of Stepney".

And under the circumstances you're surprised that an important witness is Jewish? Now it might be that he's not a particularly observant Jew, but what do we know of his background?

He was Hungarian and they were moving their (presumably few) possessions that day...he may have presented as having a theatrical appearance (whatever that might mean). That's it....all...total...We don't know he was a club member or guest (he may've been, or on the other hand he may never have even noticed the place). We don't know where or as what he worked, or what hours...we simply don't know...we have no evidence whatsoever either way.

So on what realistic basis are you expecting me to discard his evidence and conclude he's in league with the Jews in the club Michael? I'll tell you mate - at the present time - NONE - come back with some and I'll listen...

The Jews in the club weren't popular even in their own community...they knew that and there's evidence they perhaps revelled in it, or at the very least, enjoyed their notoriety as "dangerous socialists" - yet the reality was that when push came to shove, they feared the police, (look at the paranoia in Arbeiter Freint's account of the policeman attempting to buy a cigar in the club), who represented everything fearful in the countries they'd fled, and everything authoritarian they as socialists were avowed to overcome.

Of course they were in a tight place...these people were born in a tight place, raised in a tight place, and now had put themselves even further into a tight place...you think they didn't know that? So what did they do? Well of all the things they could have done, (including shutting the gates and smuggling out the body), they...they...yes... they left the gates open and sent for the police. It all sounds incredibly suspicious to me Mike...NOT.

There is a limit to how far you can sensibly go, without evidence, to protect a cherished theory, and with all due respect Mike, I think you reached that line some way back...sorry!

All the best always

Dave