Mrs. Fanny Mortimer, Time wrong?

[Cogidubnus]

Besides...

Been thinking about this today whilst at work (don't tell my employer!)...What if Mr Lave took his five minute stroll at about 1240 or a little earlier...that's still within the approximate range of his "fifteen to twenty minutes before the body was discovered" tale...

None of the timings are absolutely cast in stone as I've repeatedly said...almost everybody's recollection of timing is going to be a little sloppy, but nonetheless I don't think I'm applying any unreasonable shoehorning

All the best

Dave

[Michael W Richards]

Spooner's been standing outside the Beehive with his fancy piece since I don't know when...and in truth neither does he...the only key to his time of arrival is that Diemschutz had discovered the body, run indoors, related his tale and effectively sent out folk in search of coppers...two jews have run all the way down to Grove Street and doubled back, before meeting Spooner and acquainting him...he's then made his way up Berner Street to the murder site...fine...he's a reasonable witness from thereon but how on earth does he relate to what Mortimer saw or not? More to the point, how can he possibly be related to what Schwartz saw before Liz died?

Eagel returned at 12.35 and hence missed the action at about 12.45. Lave is reported, as far as I know only in the Evening News - another supposed witness that didn't make the inquest, yet is worth more than Schwartz?

Kozebrodski certainly stated he was advised of the murder earlier...but let's be honest, he was 18 years old and spoke the language imperfectly.

So Gillen? Leave surmise apart, who is he please?

You'd honestly set these up against the medical evidence, the police evidence, the evidence of your own witness Mortimer, plus the evidence of Schwartz? Sorry mate but it simply doesn't make sense

All the best

Dave

Ok...first off you need to get some facts correct Dave. For one, Spooner said he and his date walked from the pub that closed at 12 on Commercial Street to their location at the Beehive... at a leisurely pace. After 10 minutes there he sees the men from the club. Assuming a slow pace from the pub, 30 minutes? And the 10 minutes...gives you around 12:40. He then accompanies the men to the club...and at the Inquest gives that same statement, and he is told he must be incorrect because Louis says he arrived to find the body just after 1am!! And 12:40 is when Eagle says he arrived back at the club, not 12:35. Lave stated that he was at the gates from around 12:30 until 12:40. They did not see each other at the gates at 12:40.

Issac K said that about 10 minutes after he arrived back at the club, at 12:30...he was called to the passageway by Louis. Gillen is a member who was upstairs and said he was summoned at 12:40.

Israel Schwartz made a statement to the police that he saw Liz on the street with another man, and one came from out of a doorway across the street, at 12:45. He then ran away...into the street that Spooner and his date were on.

Spooner didnt see Israel...or Pipeman. Brown didnt see Israel, or Liz, or BSM when he was at the corner at 12:40. The young couple were interviewed and apparently saw none of any of these folks. Fanny didnt see Eagle, she didnt see Lave, she didnt see or hear Israel, or Pipeman, or BSM, and she didnt see Louis arrive. Even though we can state without doubt that she was at her door between 12:50 and 1:00am. Because of Goldstein.

Leaving us with a story that no-one can verify, even though we have outside witnesses on the street or viewing it at these critical times. And we have a number of witnesses....some from the club, and at least one from outside, that say they saw the dead woman about 10-15 minutes before 1am. Within 1 hour of the murder.

What Ive been saying is that Fanny Mortimer was at her door sporadically from 12:30 until 12:50.....why must we assume that she must have been "off" when all these people suddenly come into the street? The street that had been quiet since the meeting broke up? Because a club steward.....one of the few men most responsible for what happens on that property, says he came at 1am..therefore, no-one saw any dead woman before that.

Really poor logic to swallow that in my opinion.

And one key to all of this Dave is the belief that Israel Schwartz's story matters in the search for truth. I dont believe that it is myself. Look at the Inquest transcripts and tell me why he doesnt seem to be there. Hes a convenient way to put suspicion off the Jews and onto a Gentile from outside the club. It seems to be a successful answer to their problems since people still use it as a piece of evidence today. It wasnt then...it was simply a statement.....just like Hutchinsons. A finger point.

All the best Dave

[Cogidubnus]

Hi Mike

Spooner is standing outside the Beehive at the corner of Fairclough Street and Christian Street. This is two streets away from the murder scene. He admits in his evidence that the only means he has of fixing his timings are the closing times of the pubs...it doesn't make for accurate timekeeping in the first place does it?

When was the last time you were in a pub on a Saturday night and it closed smack on time after a full ten minutes Last Orders? It simply doesn't often happen, and was quite possibly even less common in 1888...especially on a Saturday Night, the landlords best night of the week.

On top of that his 5 minutes and 25 minutes are nothing more than retrospective guesswork...there's no event or sighting of a clock or anything to tie them down to, and no reason why he should've kept track of the time...and he is after all preoccupied with a young lady, which might also explain why he's not being particularly observant of his environment until the panic-stricken jews attract his attention (perhaps the young lady had firmly said no by then too!)...

Brown says he saw the couple in the street "at about a quarter to one" as he was "going from my own house to get some supper from a chandler's shop". He subsequently obtained his supper (from the shop at the corner of Berner Street and Fairclough Street - presumably on the opposite corner to the Nelson Beer House) and returned home to 35 Fairclough Street. He'd nearly finished his supper when he heard the hullabaloo kicking off outside and estimated that was about a quarter of an hour after he got in..if the hullabaloo kicked off at about five past one, what time do you reckon he actually saw the couple (bearing in mind he saw them on his way to the shop and he had to have spent his time in the shop making his purchases)...I'm sure he saw them earlier than 1245, and he could well actually have been in the shop, and therefore unsighted at 1245.

Now I know it can be read into Browns statement that he saw the couple on his way back from the shop...I'm not so sure...the wording of the evidence in the Times and Telegraphs accounts differs...but if he did see them coming back from the shop then he was presumably indoors eating his supper when the Scwartz event/murder occured.

If the Daily News version of Fanny Mortimers story is correct, then she disn't see Lave, Eagle or any of the other players simply because she wasn't on the step at that time. Assuming she was there between 1250 and 1.00 then there's nothing for her too see until Goldstein passes by...it's all already happened.

This leaves just the young Kozebrodski with his far from perfect English...

Michael do you really think that the Police and Coroner just didn't notice minor timing discrepancies between all these different witnesses. These people may have been technologically less advanced than we are, but they weren't stupid...they knew full well how "flexible" peoples timing estimates were. They also would have known how witness accounts always differ in small details. They certainly know that today, and like today, they'd probably have been suspicious if all the timings/actions fitted together too well...

I'm sorry Mike but I think you're seeing the makings of a conspiracy amongst Club members, where it doesn't exist...I don't think they had time to conspire...and coming from the police states many of them originated in, I think most of them would've been exactly what they seemed...scared stiff and in a panic...

I doubt we're going to agree with one another though, so suggest we agree to amicably disagree!

All the best

Dave

[Wickerman]

Dave, poetry, Pure poetry.

[drstrange169]

"Edward Spooner, 26, Fairclough-street, employed as a horsekeeper by Messrs. Meredith, biscuit makers, deposed-On Sunday morning between 12.30 and 1 o'clock, I was standing outside the Beehive Tavern,"
...
"I had been standing there about five-and-twenty minutes when two Jews came running along hallooing out "Murder" and "Police."
...
"Dr. Blackwell was the first to come. I should think ten or twelve minutes after my arrival." ...
...
"I stood by the side of the deceased about five minutes, till Police-constable Lamb came."


We can fix Spooner's time by the events around him. Four separate estimates place the time at around 1 o'clock.

His quote,


"I believe it was about 25 minutes to one o'clock"


is clearly a misquote by the reporter or an error on his part.



Spooner admits he had no idea of the time,


"The only means I had of fixing the time was by the closing of the public houses."


The preponderance of evidenceplaces the event at or around 1 o'clock, why ignore it?

[Cogidubnus]

Quite Dusty/Jon

Spooner and Kozedbrosky both place the murder time earlier...if we take them at their word it doesn't work for one simple reason...if things really were kicking off at 1230 or 1235, then mightn't PC Smith, passing along Berner Street at that time, have noticed? Mightn't he then have been included in the police presence witnessed by Lamb, Spooner et al? Ludicrous...Spooner was out in his timings, and so must have been Kozedbrosky.

Just another thought before I dash off to work (late start today fortunately):

In the Times report James Brown implies, initially, that he witnessed the young couple on his way to the shop, but later on seems to imply otherwise.

In the Telegraph version he seems more clearly to say that he was on his way back...but crucially he emphasises he was only in the shop three or four minutes. Why does he do so...if he's already been to the shop when he sees the couple, of what relevance is this? He seemingly fixes his timings not by the shop, but by the time he was disturbed by the shouting in the street. However, I believe he emphasises his time in the shop simply because of it's criticality. If he saw the couple on his way to the shop, it is essential to his mentally tracking back the timings from 1.00/1.05am approx to the (approximate) time he saw them...I tend to favour the latter and think he might well've been just a few minutes out, and it quite possibly all kicked off while he was inside buying his pie and chips or whatever...

Just a thought...

All the best

Dave

[Abby Normal]

Hi Mike

Spooner is standing outside the Beehive at the corner of Fairclough Street and Christian Street. This is two streets away from the murder scene. He admits in his evidence that the only means he has of fixing his timings are the closing times of the pubs...it doesn't make for accurate timekeeping in the first place does it?

When was the last time you were in a pub on a Saturday night and it closed smack on time after a full ten minutes Last Orders? It simply doesn't often happen, and was quite possibly even less common in 1888...especially on a Saturday Night, the landlords best night of the week.

On top of that his 5 minutes and 25 minutes are nothing more than retrospective guesswork...there's no event or sighting of a clock or anything to tie them down to, and no reason why he should've kept track of the time...and he is after all preoccupied with a young lady, which might also explain why he's not being particularly observant of his environment until the panic-stricken jews attract his attention (perhaps the young lady had firmly said no by then too!)...

Brown says he saw the couple in the street "at about a quarter to one" as he was "going from my own house to get some supper from a chandler's shop". He subsequently obtained his supper (from the shop at the corner of Berner Street and Fairclough Street - presumably on the opposite corner to the Nelson Beer House) and returned home to 35 Fairclough Street. He'd nearly finished his supper when he heard the hullabaloo kicking off outside and estimated that was about a quarter of an hour after he got in..if the hullabaloo kicked off at about five past one, what time do you reckon he actually saw the couple (bearing in mind he saw them on his way to the shop and he had to have spent his time in the shop making his purchases)...I'm sure he saw them earlier than 1245, and he could well actually have been in the shop, and therefore unsighted at 1245.

Now I know it can be read into Browns statement that he saw the couple on his way back from the shop...I'm not so sure...the wording of the evidence in the Times and Telegraphs accounts differs...but if he did see them coming back from the shop then he was presumably indoors eating his supper when the Scwartz event/murder occured.

If the Daily News version of Fanny Mortimers story is correct, then she disn't see Lave, Eagle or any of the other players simply because she wasn't on the step at that time. Assuming she was there between 1250 and 1.00 then there's nothing for her too see until Goldstein passes by...it's all already happened.

This leaves just the young Kozebrodski with his far from perfect English...

Michael do you really think that the Police and Coroner just didn't notice minor timing discrepancies between all these different witnesses. These people may have been technologically less advanced than we are, but they weren't stupid...they knew full well how "flexible" peoples timing estimates were. They also would have known how witness accounts always differ in small details. They certainly know that today, and like today, they'd probably have been suspicious if all the timings/actions fitted together too well...

I'm sorry Mike but I think you're seeing the makings of a conspiracy amongst Club members, where it doesn't exist...I don't think they had time to conspire...and coming from the police states many of them originated in, I think most of them would've been exactly what they seemed...scared stiff and in a panic...

I doubt we're going to agree with one another though, so suggest we agree to amicably disagree!

All the best

Dave

Hi cog
I totally agree with your last paragraph. I don't think they had any time to conspire also. And if they did why use schwartz? They already had a real witness (if schwartz was put up to it) in Diemshutz who actually discovered the body. They could have just had him say he saw a man over stride as he entered the yard with a knife in his hand that yelled lipski at him and ran out past him. Then there would be no doubt at all that it was not someone from the club.

And you mentioned they would be scared stiff. Again totally agree. Same with Schwartz and I have argued this many times-do we really Beleive that some foreign Jewish person, new to the country and with family is really going to put himself and his family in any kind of legal jeopardy by lying to the police in a murder investigation? Don't think so.

And as far as fanny is concerned I really don't see what the big deal is. She was simply inside and missed the Schwartz/stride/BS man incident.

[Michael W Richards]

If people would quit insisting that the Schwartz sighting was valuable evidence we could progress a bit here. Schwartz is a local Immigrant Jew standing outside a club for Immigrant Jews near 1am.....but he has no connection to the club or the meeting, right? So...where is this residence that his wife moved them from nearly 12 hours before he is standing there? Why would he assume that after 12 hours without him she would still need help moving a suitcase or two, when he left her to do it herself at noon? Isnt it far more plausible that he, like many local Jews, attended that meeting and thats why he was there at that time? If at all.

His statement is a very welcome gesture for the club, who could have been in deep crap for this murder.

He is absent from the formal Inquest in Strides death, so how is it again that we must believe him, and not the many people who didnt see anyone he claims to have seen in the street?

Cheers

[Cogidubnus]

Hi Michael

Have you ever read Jerry White's "London in the 19th Century"?

It's a fascinating book, full of figures, full of colour and life, and among the facts I gleaned from it is that London's Jewish population expanded threefold between 1880 and 1900, largely due to the flood of immigrants from the pogroms...

Ok they weren't all in Whitechapel by any means, but a large number would've naturally gravitated to the East End...for example by the end of the 19th Century "nearly four out of every five Russians and Poles in London - 42,000 people - lived in the western portions of the Metropolitan Borough of Stepney".

And under the circumstances you're surprised that an important witness is Jewish? Now it might be that he's not a particularly observant Jew, but what do we know of his background?

He was Hungarian and they were moving their (presumably few) possessions that day...he may have presented as having a theatrical appearance (whatever that might mean). That's it....all...total...We don't know he was a club member or guest (he may've been, or on the other hand he may never have even noticed the place). We don't know where or as what he worked, or what hours...we simply don't know...we have no evidence whatsoever either way.

So on what realistic basis are you expecting me to discard his evidence and conclude he's in league with the Jews in the club Michael? I'll tell you mate - at the present time - NONE - come back with some and I'll listen...

The Jews in the club weren't popular even in their own community...they knew that and there's evidence they perhaps revelled in it, or at the very least, enjoyed their notoriety as "dangerous socialists" - yet the reality was that when push came to shove, they feared the police, (look at the paranoia in Arbeiter Freint's account of the policeman attempting to buy a cigar in the club), who represented everything fearful in the countries they'd fled, and everything authoritarian they as socialists were avowed to overcome.

Of course they were in a tight place...these people were born in a tight place, raised in a tight place, and now had put themselves even further into a tight place...you think they didn't know that? So what did they do? Well of all the things they could have done, (including shutting the gates and smuggling out the body), they...they...yes... they left the gates open and sent for the police. It all sounds incredibly suspicious to me Mike...NOT.

There is a limit to how far you can sensibly go, without evidence, to protect a cherished theory, and with all due respect Mike, I think you reached that line some way back...sorry!

All the best always

Dave

[Investigator]

Hi All,
Have read through your posts and maybe this “evidence” could help your discussion.
(1) PC Henry Lamb, 252 H was the first policeman to arrive at Dutfields Yard and reported at the inquest, “… shortly before one o'clock, I was on duty in Commercial-road, between Christian-street and Batty-street, when two men came running towards me and shouting. …I ran, followed by another constable - 426 H….I am not on the Berner-street beat, but I passed the end of the street in Commercial-road (towards Christian St.) six or seven minutes before I was called.” The Daily Telegraph, October 3, 1888
Re. P.C. 426H - I seem to have read somewhere that he was the “fixed Point” policemen and about to go off duty at 01.00 hrs
(2) This is attributed to the club secretary, presumably Wess. “…Complaint is also made (that a delay) was experienced in obtaining a policeman, and it is alleged that from the time the body was discovered fifteen minutes had elapsed before a constable could be (brought) from Commercial-road. This charge against the police, however, requires confirmation.” The Echo 1 Oct. 1888
(3) Isaac Kozebrodsky had this to say; "I came into the club … at half-past twelve o'clock. Shortly after I came in Diemschitz asked me to come out into the yard, as he saw there was something unusual had taken place there. … I immediately went for a policeman, and ran in the direction of Grove-street, but could not find one. Then I went into the Commercial-road, where I found two policemen. I brought them back with me, and they sent for a doctor.” The Evening News Oct 1, 1888
(4) “...Dimshits, Eygel and Gilyarovsky ran to look for a policeman; ten minutes later they had found a pair of peace-keepers. One of the policemen ran for a doctor, and Morris Eygel ran to the police station on Leman Street to report the murder....” Der Arbeter Fraint" October 5, 1888. It is interesting that no mention is made of Kozebrodsky and Gilyarovsky is Gidleman
This adds up to a reported finding of Elisabeth’s body close to 12.45 am and agrees roughly with Spooner’s and Kozebrodsky’s statements. Diemshitz, Lave (Jaffa) and Eagle have distorted the time of events. Diemshitz’s (as Club Steward) placing avid emphasis of a 01.00 discovery that induced a mind-set influencing bystanders’, including the Press (and many Ripperologists).

Estimating TOD. The medical profession in 1888 knew only too well the inaccuracy of estimating a time of death. The indicators for estimating time of death at that time were (and still are in part); body stiffening (rigor mortis), temperature loss rate (algor mortis) and discolouration (livor mortis). Because these markers do not emerge until at least one hour, it is possible that Blackwell also took into consideration, blood clotting time in his estimation of TOD.
After establishing the absence of vital signs, an estimate of a time-frame in which death could have occurred would have been determined from the last time the person was seen alive. Blackwell would have asked the on-lookers’ When was the body discovered? Can anyone vouch for the absence of the body? He checked body temperature – it was still warm, he checked the rigidity of the face muscles & jaw – still loose. Conclusion – She was alive an hour ago. So the precise times set by Blackwell had little physiological basis beyond the times provided by the Berner Street boys. However, Phillips reports at the inquest of making a point of watching for the time markers of death as they emerged on the body when it was in the mortuary. No revision of TOD was put forward at the inquest to negate their previous estimate.
My guess is; Elisabeth was involved in an incident at about 12.40, she had her throat cut about 12.42, died about 12.46, discovered between these times and the police arrived at the murder site at about 01.00.
Schwartz tells the story but didn’t witness the events himself, some of which is pure fabrication (e.g. drunken man) and someone in the Club knows all about it. Also, Deimshitz may not have been the first to discover the body. His wife’s statement in the press says “He at once sent for a policeman.” Morning Advertiser. 2 October 1888. Slip of the tongue, perhaps!

An impression is given by various Club members that two parties left to find police at the same time, but this is incorrect. One party went to Grove Street, consisting of Kozebrodsky and Gilyarovsky, (Gidleman or Gilleman) it may have been Deimshitz, returning with Spooner who states he met, “… two Jews came running along, calling out "Murder" and "Police." The second party set off in the direction of Commercial Road after the return of the unsuccessful group. This consisted again of Isaac Kozebrodsky accompanied by Eagle. For this reason, there was a delay in bringing the police to the murder site in Berner Street. Deimshitz stayed behind the second time possibly to orchestrate and distort the timing of events to shield the club. Among such distortions could include putting grapes in Elisabeth’s hand, then removing them on realizing it is inconsistent that she should have had snacks to occupy both hands at one time. If such action is true, then Deimshitz was aware of BS man’s purchase of grapes and is attempting to implicate him in the murder. Happy hunting, D.G.

[Digalittledeeperwatson]

An early attempt...

1:16 Blackwell arrives. About 1:06 Lamb arrives. About 1:03 Lamb is found to be brought back. About 1:00 men head North from Dutfields Yard. About 12:57 Dimshitz arrives, goes inside, match, etc. Stride is bleeding then. Upon Lamb's arrival he shouldn't like to say she was. Stride DID NOT bleed for 15 minutes. Probably more like 3-5. 3-5 being the maximum amount of time she would've been bleeding. So Stride is murdered between 12:52 and 12:57. This is prelim. Gots maths to do. Oh, Fanny goes inside around 12:53. Go on, tell me it's unreasonable. I dare you. Heh heh heh.

[harry]

Investigator,
If the three men who went for a policeman, ran for ten minutes before finding one,they must have covered a great deal of territory.Then there was the time needed for the policeman found to get to the murder scene.Something a little odd there,surely.

[Cogidubnus]

Hi Harry

Dunno about the ten minutes, (sounds excessive to me, and it may just be political polemic after the dust has settled on the events), but of course it's possible they hit the police patrol lines at just the wrong time. PC Lamb was alerted, as Investigator states, on Commercial Road between Christian Street and Batty Street...he'd passed the Commercial Road end of Berner Street just six or seven minutes earlier...so they were perhaps a little unfortunate.... I don't think I've ever seen the night-time "beats" for this area described/mapped/timed (like the Mitre Square ones) and it'd be interesting if anyone has these details or knows where they might be found.

Hi dig

Well I'd place the murder a little time earlier at 1245/50 (veering slightly towards the earlier time) but I'm not disagreeing with your basic premise, (barring my acceptance of Diemschitz arriving just after 1am - he could at least fairly claim to have seen a clock!)...but the exact timings are so diffficult because of most folks very casual attitude towards time...I have to keep reminding myself that not knowing in advance that they'd be called on as witnesses in a murder case, they'd have no reason at all to accurately note the passing of time, except perhaps afterwards as a retrospective attempt to reconcile what they'd seen and when...until the hue and cry it was just another Saturday night in the East End.

Hi Investigator

Well I don't disagree your approximate timing of the TOD - I'd be happier 1245 ish, but like you I'm fundamentally happier with a slightly earlier time than one nearer 12.55/1.00am which is the traditional take.

But there we seem to part company, because I can't see any evidence at all to suggest that Diemschitz arrived earlier than 1am and the hubbub was earlier than 1 am or soon after - Firstly Mrs Mortimer's testimony of being at the door continuously (and seeing nothing except Goldstein) from say 1250-ish to 1.00 am-ish - following which she went indoors and only then heard Diemschutz's horse - Secondly Goldstein who corroborates Mrs Mortimer, and saw no huge kerfuffle outside the club in passing, and thirdly Brown, (who if your timings are correct would surely have dropped his dinner in surprise instead of going home and stolidly eating it until hearing the hullabaloo when he'd nearly finished!), fourthly Schwartz, for whom there is no evidence whatever he told anything but what he saw, (freely admitting his own cowardice in the process), and finally the club members Wess, Lave and Diemschutz who again, unless you have proof otherwise, probably told what they saw as the truth...(I think Spooner told the truth too, and Kozebrodsky - just with their timings out a little further than everyone elses).

I see no evidence whatsoever of any cover-up among the Jews, and in fact, initially, the opposite...they panicked and went scurrying like headless chickens for the police.

Of course, over the course of the next few days the leaders of the club and Arbeiter Fraint Editorial team recovered their bluster and started playing the big bad socialists/anarchists (which they certainly weren't by comparison with the serious baddies elsewhere in the city)...hence the complaining tones, and "wise after the event" flavour of that same publication when the dust had started to settle - but this lay in the future - this was the early hours of Sunday morning, and there is nothing to suggest they were anything but confused and frightened...

If the club members were really that cunning or devious, they could have simply shut the gate, loaded the body on Diemschutz's cart (handily on the spot), covered it up, then later on quietly disposed of it...or just got Dienscutz to conveniently "see" a murderer fleeing...either would be far less convoluted...but they didn't and this to me speaks volumes. So why assume nearly everybody is lying, when there's no proof whatever to suggest it, and when by allowing just a little leeway to allow for the (by necessity) approximate timings, such evidence as there actually is fits together reasonably well?

Believe me It's all too easy to read conspiracy theories into virtually any of these killings...(I've found myself doing it!). But I'd suggest it might be a more fruitful use of our time and labours trying to see how we can simplify the slightly twisted skeins of evidence around these killings, rather than needlessly complicate them further!

All the best

Dave

[Wickerman]

It is to some degree ironic that the most vilified witness in the Stride case, next to Packer, is Mrs Mortimer, who's words actually confirm the claims of Diemshutz.

Mortimer claims to have stepped outside "just after one o'clock", in response to the commotion, and that the last person she saw before she "came indoors" was Goldstein, and that she came in at "one o'clock".

Goldstein gave a statement at Leman-street and Swanson makes note of the time of his claim, "about 1 a.m.".

Obviously then, as Goldstein knew nothing about any commotion as he passed Dutfields Yard "about 1 a.m.", and Mrs Mortimer responded to the commotion by coming outside "just after one o'clock", then the time window for the arrival of Diemshutz is rather tight, and cannot possibly be shifted forward by 15 minutes.

The question that needs to be asked is, was Stride laying in the entrance to Dutfields Yard while Goldstein walked passed?

- If the answer is "yes", then she was also laying there while Mortimer stood at her door on her 10 minute(?) vigil, and the statement by Schwartz may be accepted, and he must have witnessed the beginning of her murder.

- However, if the answer is "no", then the statement by Schwartz can be dismissed but, we must find a way to have Stride arrive, be assaulted, and Diemschutz discover the body all, in "about four minutes" (Mortimer).

[Digalittledeeperwatson]

Hullo Wickerman and all.

Somewhere, I can't find it currently, I read PC Lamb stated just before 1:00 he was found by the men from TIWC and called to Dutfields Yard. If this is accurate, do you think Fanny and Goldstein would be more likely to be accurate than a PC? Who has more stake to know the time? And once again all these times given are only approximations and none has been proven to been verified to be in sync with anyone else's. There is one time. 1:16 Blackwell. By his watch.