Who Was Anderson’s Witness?

[Michael W Richards]

I agree with you Michael. Mrs Mortimer was at the door, certainly when Goldstein passed . I just added the insert allowing for someone to argue otherwise if they thought Fanny was lying.
Regards Darryl

These days its more dangerous to agree with me than the opposite, so thanks for the bravery Darryl.

Thing about Mortimer is that we have a witness unaffiliated with the club, one that has known the club for some time and has formulated an opinion of those that frequent it...an opinion shared by the local police, and one that was at her door... by her own admission "almost" the whole half hour.... that is most relevant to this case. Louis, Morris and Wess all are paid by the club, as is Mrs D. Schwartz can be proven to be directly linked to this particular club later in the LVP, and is known to have Wess as an acquaintance.

Brown, Mortimer and Spooner...aside form the police...are the only truly independent witnesses, yet they are challenged far more than people who had a financial stake in keeping the club open. When one has bias, that muct be factored in. When stories have zero corroboration...they are suspect, not the foundations for some ridiculous speculating. Schwartz, Lave, Eagle, Mr and Mrs D have no secondary affirmation for anything they say. In just the one fact...Goldstein later admitting it was him passing when Fanny said he did, validates not only her eye witness value, but it also establishes her as credible. The young couple also validates Fannys statement. They saw no-one either.

Interesting that Fanny isnt at the Inquest although in essence the only relevant thing she did see was an empty street until Leon...so maybe not so surprising they didnt need her.....but Israel, if truthful, in all likelihood would have seen Liz with her most probable killer. So....why is he also left out? His story would be THE most valuable if true.

[Guest]

I still believe Schwartz saw the murder in progress, I'm going to get those reports from Kew of the interview, and I'm going to upload them here, so we can all see. And the reason he wasn't at inquest is because he was **** scared of the potential reprcussions of public attitude of him walking past a ripper murder. As I would have been.

They even publish your address at these inquests.

And I also think that Fanny Mortimer was exaggerating to get attention when she said she watched that gateway all evening.

[Guest]

Someone said in message above to me that Fanny didn't contradict medical evidence, but if Dr Blackwell examination was at 0115 and he said that this women was killed 20 to 30 minutes ago then that means he thinks she was killed between 0045 and 0055 so that does actually.

[Herlock Sholmes]

You need to think outside the box.....

I’ll try.

[c.d.]

I still believe Schwartz saw the murder in progress, I'm going to get those reports from Kew of the interview, and I'm going to upload them here, so we can all see. And the reason he wasn't at inquest is because he was **** scared of the potential reprcussions of public attitude of him walking past a ripper murder. As I would have been.

They even publish your address at these inquests.

And I also think that Fanny Mortimer was exaggerating to get attention when she said she watched that gateway all evening.

Hello Wiggins,

Just to be clear -- are you saying he witnessed Stride's murder but somehow didn't realize what he was seeing or are you saying he was lying?

c.d.

[Scott Nelson]

I tried thinking outside the box a few times and got lost every time. Finally I decided to stay in the box.

[Guest]

Thanks cd, yes there are 100s of witnesses in the case, and each has their own story to tell.

but there is only one who actually witnessed a women being attacked, shortly before she was murdered.

And yes I agree that he didnt realise it was a Jack the Ripper.
All he thought was that whatever was happening it was bad, and he didnt want to get involved.

All he saw violence and he crossed the street.
As many people would have done, probably you and I for all I know.

And hindsite is a cruel mistress. People dont take it into consideration. It happened within a space of minutes and everyone reacts differently.

So his statement needs serious consideration and examination.
Unlike Fanny Mortimer he had nothing to gain from his witness statement, other than ridicule and contempt. Not only from the police but from his peers and the public at large, who without hindsite in a darkened street would all have been heros.

So in some ways perhaps he is the bravest witness of them all.

[The Baron]

I tried thinking outside the box a few times and got lost every time. Finally I decided to stay in the box.

Jack in the Box!



The Baron

[c.d.]

Hello Wiggins,

According to Schwartz's statement what did this attack consist of?

c.d.

[Astatine211]

I still believe Schwartz saw the murder in progress, I'm going to get those reports from Kew of the interview, and I'm going to upload them here, so we can all see. And the reason he wasn't at inquest is because he was **** scared of the potential reprcussions of public attitude of him walking past a ripper murder. As I would have been.

They even publish your address at these inquests.

And I also think that Fanny Mortimer was exaggerating to get attention when she said she watched that gateway all evening.

Everything you're looking for about Schwartz is already in The Ultimate Jack the Ripper Sourcebook by Stewart P. Evans and Keith Skinner. It has the transcripts of the relevant files at Kew.

[GBinOz]

We do know that sometime, probably around 12. 45 am, Stride entered Dutfield's Yard, she may have been alone or accompanied, and she may have done so voluntarily, or by force, we don't know. But it happened, and Fanny M didn't see it. This is also about the time that Schwartz says he passed by, so if Fanny didn't see Stride enter the yard, then she would be unable to offer evidence about Schwartz either.

Hi Dr Whatsit,

Thread relevance: Shwartz is potential Anderson witness.

Mortimer's time of just before 12:45 doesn't match Smith's time of between 12:30 and 12:35. If the 10 minute difference is adjusted as clock sync and Smith's time is used, then Herlock has it right when he said "Mortimer went onto her doorstep just after Smith passed, remained for 10 minutes, then went back inside. Then Schwartz passed and the incident occurred.". If Stride went to the yard, accompanied by Parcelman or not, just after Smith passed and stood just inside the gate/property line then she would not have been visible to Mortimer. Remember, Schwartz said BS Man tried to pull her out of the yard, and it was very dark in that part of the yard. The young couple that walked up and down Berner St and were seen by Brown , who mistook them for Stride and partner, at the corner of Berner and Fairclough may not have seen her in the darkness either.

So, if the clock correction is adopted, Mortimer's story implies that Stride was in the yard by 12:35, that Schwartz's time of 12:45 was just after Mortimer went inside and that between 12:35 and 12:45 Goldstein walked south on Berner St to Fairclough and glanced into the yard as he passed (was he looking for Stride?). Mortimer said that after she left her doorway "in about four minutes' time she heard Diemschitz's pony cart pass the house" which tells us that Schwartz saw Stride alive 2 to 3 minutes before Diemshutz arrived.

For whatever reason, neither Schwartz nor Mortimer were called to the inquest. Perhaps if they had we would know more.

Cheers, George

[Astatine211]

At 12:35 PC Smith saw a man with Elizabeth Stride.
At 12:45 Schwartz saw a different man with Stride.
The police believed the man Schwartz saw with Stride was more likely to be her killer because his description was closer to the man Lawende saw with Eddowes.

Pipeman can be disregarded as he was cleared by police. The broad-shouldered man shouted "Lipski" at either Schwartz or Pipeman as an insult. An alternative explanation for this could be that the word shouted wasn't actually "Lipski" but the similar sounding polish word "wścibski" which means "nosy" and "overly inquisitive". This was found by Steve Blomer on the other forum:

https://www.jtrforums.com/forum/the-witnesses-evidence/27084-szwarz-shine-schwartz-~/page3

Thousands of pages of arguing over if Stride was a Ripper victim is somewhat redundant as the answer doesn't actually effect the overall scope of the case. Almost everyone agree that's Chapman and Eddowes are Ripper victims so even if Stride isn't, nothing really changes. Especially since the alternatives are only a handful of people.

For example, if a confession written by say Kidney, Eagle or Diemschutz is discovered saying that they killed Stride but weren't the Ripper it doesn't really change anything.

However, if a confession written by Barnett is discovered saying that he killed Kelly, the entire case changes. Suspects that had an alibi for Kelly become plausible again. There's a big chance that the last victim of the Ripper was over a month earlier. The Ripper never escalated to the level of mutilations on MJK. The whole case would have to be reconsidered.

Ultimately if Stride was a Ripper victim, Schwartz and Lawende saw the same man and therefore the identification of Kosminski doesn't change.

If Stride wasn't a Ripper victim, Schwartz being the witness doesn't make sense and therefore Lawende is the witness.

The alternative outside these two options is that there never was an identification and Anderson is getting confused with the Sadler identification by Lawende.

So there are three options:
1. Either Lawende or Schwartz identify Kosminski as the man they saw. (If Stride was a Ripper victim).
2. Lawende identifies Kosminski as the man he saw (If Stride wasn't a Ripper Victim).
3. The Kosminski identification never happened.

Realistically, none of the options change anything as even if the ID didn't happen, Kosminski still remains a frontrunner on merit of being Anderson's and other senior officers prime suspect.

Btw did everyone know that one of the Eddowes witnesses, James Blenkinsop, was later admitted to an asylum:

https://forum.casebook.org/forum/ripper-discussions/witnesses/10729-james-blenkinsop

[GBinOz]

If Stride wasn't a Ripper victim, Schwartz being the witness doesn't make sense and therefore Lawende is the witness.

The alternative outside these two options is that there never was an identification and Anderson is getting confused with the Sadler identification by Lawende.

So there are three options:
1. Either Lawende or Schwartz identify Kosminski as the man they saw. (If Stride was a Ripper victim).
2. Lawende identifies Kosminski as the man he saw (If Stride wasn't a Ripper Victim).
3. The Kosminski idenfication never happened.

Don't you mean Grainger identification by Lawende ?

What about Schwartz identifies Kosminski as the man he saw but Stride wasn't a Ripper Victim. Nobody knows if Stride was or wasn't a ripper victim but Anderson would have presumed that he was the ripper even if he wasn't.

Cheers, George

[Astatine211]

Don't you mean Grainger identification by Lawende ?

What about Schwartz identifies Kosminski as the man he saw but Stride wasn't a Ripper Victim. Nobody knows if Stride was or wasn't a ripper victim but Anderson would have presumed that he was the ripper even if he wasn't.

Cheers, George

No, Lawende was the witness most likely used by the police in James Sadler's identification in 1891 where he failed to identify Sadler as the man he had seen in 1888. This was likely the same year as the Kosminski identification. Lawende was also used at Grainger's identification too.

For me, if Stride wasn't a Ripper victim, Kosminski just so happening to be her killer but nothing else is too improbable.

[GBinOz]

For me, if Stride wasn't a Ripper victim, Kosminski just so happening to be her killer but nothing else is too improbable.

Hi Astatine211,

There is some interesting research by Pat Marshall and Chris Phillips reported in Ripperologist 128 and discussed here: https://forum.casebook.org/forum/rip...perologist-128

It suggests that Providence Street was the likeliest address for Aaron Kozminski at the time of the murders. The comment is:
"walking between Aaron's siblings residences at this time (as Aaron surely would have done), one would obviously traverse either Berner Street or Batty Street, as both streets lie directly between Greenfield Street and Providence Street.".

To me this increases the probabilty that Aaron may have been in Berner St at the time of Stride's murder.

Cheers, George