Who Was Anderson’s Witness?

[Trevor Marriott]

Of course there is a doubt about her killer, Trev.

Yet you insist there is no doubt about who he wasn't.

Love,

Caz
X

and the doubt surrounds whether or not she was killed by the same hand as the other ripper victims and the facts in my opinion suggest she was not.

But you keep beliveing what you want to believe if it makes you happy

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[GBinOz]

Hi Darryl,

Im fairly sure, but I’ll stand correcting of course, that Goldstein never gave a time that he passed. If we take Fanny’s other statement to the Evening News (the one that Michael turns a blind eye to) she said that she was on her doorstep for 10 minutes from the time that Smith passed. So if that’s right she could, for example, have been on her doorstep from 12.33 to 12.43 so she might have seen Goldstein at say 12.42.

Hi Herlock,

To be accurate, Fanny said her 10 minutes started shortly before 12:45, but I agree with your clock correction based on Smith's testimony.

In the same edition of the Evening News (1 Oct) there is another interview with what seems to be a different neighbour, who said that she saw a man with a black bag walking up Berner St and she speculated that he may have come from the Socialist Club. The journalist doesn't name the neighbour as Mortimer, and doesn't indicate where she lived, just that there were 3 people standing in the street chatting. He does say that she was the wife of a " well-to-do artisan". Mortimer's husband, William, was a carman. Also, there are no times mentioned.

I wonder if Goldstein headed up Berner St towards Commercial Road and the Spectacle Coffee Shop to establish an alibi, returning down Berner St later, with his head down, looking up at the club to check what may have been discovered, and then continuing home?

Cheers, George

[Herlock Sholmes]

Hi Herlock,

To be accurate, Fanny said her 10 minutes started shortly before 12:45, but I agree with your clock correction based on Smith's testimony.

In the same edition of the Evening News (1 Oct) there is another interview with what seems to be a different neighbour, who said that she saw a man with a black bag walking up Berner St and she speculated that he may have come from the Socialist Club. The journalist doesn't name the neighbour as Mortimer, and doesn't indicate where she lived, just that there were 3 people standing in the street chatting. He does say that she was the wife of a " well-to-do artisan". Mortimer's husband, William, was a carman. Also, there are no times mentioned.

I wonder if Goldstein headed up Berner St towards Commercial Road and the Spectacle Coffee Shop to establish an alibi, returning down Berner St later, with his head down, looking up at the club to check what may have been discovered, and then continuing home?

Cheers, George

Hi George,

There’s definitely an EN quote where she said that she went onto her doorstep just after she’d heard a Constable pass. So if Smith was correct then it’s very possible that she went onto her doorstep just before 12.35. So she could easily have been back inside when Schwartz passed. Times vary with different versions of course but I’d say that it’s more likely that she missed Schwartz than it is that Schwartz placed himself at the scene of a murder if he wasn’t actually there. We know that there’s zero evidence for any club-related plot of course so the simplest explanation does it for me.

[Herlock Sholmes]

and the doubt surrounds whether or not she was killed by the same hand as the other ripper victims and the facts in my opinion suggest she was not.

But you keep beliveing what you want to believe if it makes you happy

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

But when your doubts amount to - the killer couldn’t cross the magical Whitechapel Road and the fact that the Stride murder occurred around 50 minutes before the Eddowes murder and so too early for Jack to be at work and 1 throat cut instead of 2 it’s hardly game over is it?

[GBinOz]

Hi Herlock,

Here are the two reports from the Evening News 1 Oct:

INTERVIEW WITH A NEIGHBOUR.

Some three doors from the gateway where the body of the first victim was discovered, I saw a clean, respectable-looking woman chatting with one or two neighbours. She was apparently the wife of a well-to-do artisan, and formed a strong contrast to many of those around her. I got into conversation with her and found that she was one of the first on the spot.


TEN INCHES OF COLD STEEL.


"I was just about going to bed, sir, when I heard a call for the police. I ran to the door, and before I could open it I heard somebody say, 'Come out quick; there's a poor woman here that's had ten inches of cold steel in her.' I hurried out, and saw some two or three people standing in the gateway. Lewis, the man who looks after the Socialist Club at No. 40, was there, and his wife.

"Then I see a sight that turned me all sick and cold. There was the murdered woman a-lying on her side, with her throat cut across till her head seemed to be hanging by a bit of skin. Her legs was drawn up under her, and her head and the upper part of her body was soaked in blood. She was dressed in black as if she was in mourning for somebody.


MURDERED WITHIN SOUND OF MUSIC AND DANCING.


"Did you hear no sound of quarrelling, no cry for help?" I asked.

"Nothing of the sort, sir. I should think I must have heard it if the poor creature screamed at all, for I hadn't long come in from the door when I was roused, as I tell you, by that call for the police. But that was from the people as found the body. Mr. Lewis, who travels in cheap drapery things a bit now and again, had just drove into the yard when his horse shied at something that was lying in the corner. He thought 'twas a bundle of some kind till he got down from his cart and struck a light. Then he saw what it was and gave the alarm."

"Was the street quiet at the time?"

"Yes, there was hardly anybody moving about, except at the club. There was music and dancing going on there at the very time that that poor creature was being murdered at their very door, as one may say."


A MAN WITH A BLACK BAG!


" I suppose you did not notice a man and woman pass down the street while you were at the door?"

"No, sir. I think I should have noticed them if they had. Particularly if they'd been strangers, at that time o' night. I only noticed one person passing, just before I turned in. That was a young man walking up Berner-street, carrying a black bag in his hand."

"Did you observe him closely, or notice anything in his appearance?"

"No, I didn't pay particular attention to him. He was respectably dressed, but was a stranger to me. He might ha' been coming from the Socialist Club., A good many young men goes there, of a Saturday night especially."

That was all that my informant had to tell me. I wonder will the detectives think it worth while to satisfy themselves about that black bag?


THE SILENCE OF THE MURDERER.


When the alarm of murder was raised a young girl had been standing in a bisecting thoroughfare not fifty yards from the spot where the body was found. She had, she said, been standing there for about twenty minutes, talking with her sweetheart, but neither of them heard any unusual noises. A woman who lives two doors from the club has made an important statement. It appears that shortly before a quarter to one o'clock she heard the measured, heavy tramp of a policeman passing the house on his beat. Immediately afterwards she went to the street-door, with the intention of shooting the bolts, though she remained standing there ten minutes before she did so. During the ten minutes she saw no one enter or leave the neighbouring yard, and she feels sure that had any one done so she could not have overlooked the fact. The quiet and deserted character of the street appears even to have struck her at the time. Locking the door, she prepared to retire to bed, in the front room on the ground floor, and it so happened that in about four minutes' time she heard Diemschitz's pony cart pass the house, and remarked upon the circumstance to her husband.

It is interesting that the young couple were at the location where Brown thought he saw Stride. As I said, I would put the time difference down to clock sync. IMHO, these 2 interviews were with different women.

Cheers, George

[Trevor Marriott]

But when your doubts amount to - the killer couldn’t cross the magical Whitechapel Road and the fact that the Stride murder occurred around 50 minutes before the Eddowes murder and so too early for Jack to be at work and 1 throat cut instead of 2 it’s hardly game over is it?

I see you conveniently missed out the fact that her murder was almost on a public highway at a time when members of the public were still walking about and you also missed out there were no other stabs wounds inflicted on her, and it is relevant that her murder was the only one committed south of the Whitechapel Road because the rest of the murders tends to point to a specific killing ground of the killer.

You are also forgeetting that the cutting of a throat in Victorian times was one of the main accepted ways to kill, so just because Stride had her throat cut does not automaticlaly point to one killer.

As I stated previous there are more points to suggest she was not killed by the same hand as Eddowes, than there are to suggest she was

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Darryl Kenyon]

Since she said she was standing at her door, the window insert above isnt valid.

I agree with you Michael. Mrs Mortimer was at the door, certainly when Goldstein passed . I just added the insert allowing for someone to argue otherwise if they thought Fanny was lying.
Regards Darryl

[Herlock Sholmes]

I see you conveniently missed out the fact that her murder was almost on a public highway at a time when members of the public were still walking about and you also missed out there were no other stabs wounds inflicted on her, and it is relevant that her murder was the only one committed south of the Whitechapel Road because the rest of the murders tends to point to a specific killing ground of the killer.

You are also forgeetting that the cutting of a throat in Victorian times was one of the main accepted ways to kill, so just because Stride had her throat cut does not automaticlaly point to one killer.

As I stated previous there are more points to suggest she was not killed by the same hand as Eddowes, than there are to suggest she was

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

I didn’t deliberately miss out the location Trevor because it’s the point that I’ve made myself as the one that causes me most doubt.

I didn’t mention the lack of other wounds because there is a plausible, possible reason for this.

Mitre Square is only just over the Whitechapel Road but it’s the only murder that crosses Houndsditch so is that a reason to dismiss Eddowes? We’re only talking about 5 murders here so to dismiss Stride on this point is at best clutching at straws IMO.

As to your final point, I’ve never consulted the 1888 Ladybird Practical Handbook On How To Murder A Woman so I don’t see how you could describe it as you do. I don't how many throat-cuttings occurred in that period but I have a feeling that someone has posted figures. The point is though is that it’s more specific than that, it was a woman who engaged in prostitution killed on the street (in a yard) then we also have to add the fact that this was during a period other murders of the same class of woman, all within a small area. Then of course we can add that we know for an absolute fact that the killer was out on that night.

The points toward Stride being a ripper victim outweigh the points against. In fact there are only 2 valid objections IMO. The lack,of mutilations and the fact that the location appeared to be such a risky one. The others can be dismissed. Plus I have to add that the ‘amount’ of points ahead was grossly exaggerated by you splitting points into more than one point to increase the size of the list.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Hi Herlock,

Here are the two reports from the Evening News 1 Oct:

INTERVIEW WITH A NEIGHBOUR.

Some three doors from the gateway where the body of the first victim was discovered, I saw a clean, respectable-looking woman chatting with one or two neighbours. She was apparently the wife of a well-to-do artisan, and formed a strong contrast to many of those around her. I got into conversation with her and found that she was one of the first on the spot.


TEN INCHES OF COLD STEEL.


"I was just about going to bed, sir, when I heard a call for the police. I ran to the door, and before I could open it I heard somebody say, 'Come out quick; there's a poor woman here that's had ten inches of cold steel in her.' I hurried out, and saw some two or three people standing in the gateway. Lewis, the man who looks after the Socialist Club at No. 40, was there, and his wife.

"Then I see a sight that turned me all sick and cold. There was the murdered woman a-lying on her side, with her throat cut across till her head seemed to be hanging by a bit of skin. Her legs was drawn up under her, and her head and the upper part of her body was soaked in blood. She was dressed in black as if she was in mourning for somebody.


MURDERED WITHIN SOUND OF MUSIC AND DANCING.


"Did you hear no sound of quarrelling, no cry for help?" I asked.

"Nothing of the sort, sir. I should think I must have heard it if the poor creature screamed at all, for I hadn't long come in from the door when I was roused, as I tell you, by that call for the police. But that was from the people as found the body. Mr. Lewis, who travels in cheap drapery things a bit now and again, had just drove into the yard when his horse shied at something that was lying in the corner. He thought 'twas a bundle of some kind till he got down from his cart and struck a light. Then he saw what it was and gave the alarm."

"Was the street quiet at the time?"

"Yes, there was hardly anybody moving about, except at the club. There was music and dancing going on there at the very time that that poor creature was being murdered at their very door, as one may say."


A MAN WITH A BLACK BAG!


" I suppose you did not notice a man and woman pass down the street while you were at the door?"

"No, sir. I think I should have noticed them if they had. Particularly if they'd been strangers, at that time o' night. I only noticed one person passing, just before I turned in. That was a young man walking up Berner-street, carrying a black bag in his hand."

"Did you observe him closely, or notice anything in his appearance?"

"No, I didn't pay particular attention to him. He was respectably dressed, but was a stranger to me. He might ha' been coming from the Socialist Club., A good many young men goes there, of a Saturday night especially."

That was all that my informant had to tell me. I wonder will the detectives think it worth while to satisfy themselves about that black bag?


THE SILENCE OF THE MURDERER.


When the alarm of murder was raised a young girl had been standing in a bisecting thoroughfare not fifty yards from the spot where the body was found. She had, she said, been standing there for about twenty minutes, talking with her sweetheart, but neither of them heard any unusual noises. A woman who lives two doors from the club has made an important statement. It appears that shortly before a quarter to one o'clock she heard the measured, heavy tramp of a policeman passing the house on his beat. Immediately afterwards she went to the street-door, with the intention of shooting the bolts, though she remained standing there ten minutes before she did so. During the ten minutes she saw no one enter or leave the neighbouring yard, and she feels sure that had any one done so she could not have overlooked the fact. The quiet and deserted character of the street appears even to have struck her at the time. Locking the door, she prepared to retire to bed, in the front room on the ground floor, and it so happened that in about four minutes' time she heard Diemschitz's pony cart pass the house, and remarked upon the circumstance to her husband.

It is interesting that the young couple were at the location where Brown thought he saw Stride. As I said, I would put the time difference down to clock sync. IMHO, these 2 interviews were with different women.

Cheers, George

The one typed in red has to have been Mortimer and it says quite clearly that she stood on her doorstep for 10 minutes. So 10 minutes out of 30 can’t accurately be described as ‘nearly the whole time.’ I know that you’re not ignoring this one George but Michael certainly does because it shows the possibility that Mortimer went onto her doorstep just after Smith passed, remained for 10 minutes, then went back inside. Then Schwartz passed and the incident occurred. This is a very real possibility so it should repeatedly be claimed by Michael that Mortimer must have seen Schwartz had he been there. There’s no must about it. It’s a very obvious and deliberate omission to shoehorn a theory into place I’m afraid.

[caz]

In order for this killer to have been the person youd like him to be, you still have to have to accept that he left zero evidence that it was him. In this case the absence of evidence is the evidence he was absent.

Who do you think I'd 'like' Stride's killer to be, Michael?

Any ideas?

Thought not.

Whoever he was - and I personally don't have any individual in mind - he left zero evidence to give us a clue. Stride had her throat cut, so I doubt her killer was 'absent' when it happened.

You are the one who indulges in wishful thinking around here. You don your Colin Stagg blinkers to rid yourself of any evidence or any witness who might otherwise get in the way of your pet theories about these murders and who did or didn't commit them.

What is it with you and Trevor, that you can't grasp the simplest principle that almost nobody insists on Stride being a ripper victim, and most of us are flexible enough in our thinking to explore and consider all the alternatives.

In stark contrast, you have managed to rule out the ripper as Stride's killer so totally that I wonder why you still bother to post on the subject at all. Your mind may be closed, but you can't expect others to follow suit and close theirs.

[Doctored Whatsit]

I have never understood the alleged relevance of Fanny Mortimer's evidence. It isn't absolutely certain from the newspaper reports what clear evidence she has to offer about what was seen and when. We assume she made a statement to the police, and that would have been much clearer, but we will never know what she actually reported to them.

We do know that sometime, probably around 12. 45 am, Stride entered Dutfield's Yard, she may have been alone or accompanied, and she may have done so voluntarily, or by force, we don't know. But it happened, and Fanny M didn't see it. This is also about the time that Schwartz says he passed by, so if Fanny didn't see Stride enter the yard, then she would be unable to offer evidence about Schwartz either.

The most Fanny M might have been able to offer the police would have been a possible guide to the time when nothing important was happening.

[Losmandris]

How is it that seemingly every thread eventually ends up discussing Elizabeth Stide? Stays on topic for a few pages then goes off on the inevitable tangent. Getting a little trying now everyone.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Who do you think I'd 'like' Stride's killer to be, Michael?

Any ideas?

Thought not.

Whoever he was - and I personally don't have any individual in mind - he left zero evidence to give us a clue. Stride had her throat cut, so I doubt her killer was 'absent' when it happened.

You are the one who indulges in wishful thinking around here. You don your Colin Stagg blinkers to rid yourself of any evidence or any witness who might otherwise get in the way of your pet theories about these murders and who did or didn't commit them.

What is it with you and Trevor, that you can't grasp the simplest principle that almost nobody insists on Stride being a ripper victim, and most of us are flexible enough in our thinking to explore and consider all the alternatives.

In stark contrast, you have managed to rule out the ripper as Stride's killer so totally that I wonder why you still bother to post on the subject at all. Your mind may be closed, but you can't expect others to follow suit and close theirs.

Well said Caz. It’s always the hopelessly biased who accuse those that might disagree with them of bias. Their problem really is an ‘absence of evidence’ so desperate measures have to be employed. Can any of us imagine another area where someone that says that Stride might or might not have been killed by the ripper can get accused of being blinkered. Perhaps it’s because I’ve eliminated suicide?

[Herlock Sholmes]

How is it that seemingly every thread eventually ends up discussing Elizabeth Stide? Stays on topic for a few pages then goes off on the inevitable tangent. Getting a little trying now everyone.

Fair point Tristan.

Back to the subject at hand

[GBinOz]

The one typed in red has to have been Mortimer and it says quite clearly that she stood on her doorstep for 10 minutes. So 10 minutes out of 30 can’t accurately be described as ‘nearly the whole time.’ I know that you’re not ignoring this one George but Michael certainly does because it shows the possibility that Mortimer went onto her doorstep just after Smith passed, remained for 10 minutes, then went back inside. Then Schwartz passed and the incident occurred. This is a very real possibility so it should repeatedly be claimed by Michael that Mortimer must have seen Schwartz had he been there. There’s no must about it. It’s a very obvious and deliberate omission to shoehorn a theory into place I’m afraid.

Hi Herlock,

In the Evening News dated 1 Oct 1888 there are three articles on women observing the street from their doorways. There is the one presented by Wiggins that identifies Mortimer by name and address, and the above red coloured report that identifies Mortimer by street placement. I see the timings in the red account as a refinement of the other with an emphasis on the last part, and in need of a clock sync. In Mortimer's first account she says that she saw a man with a black bag walking quickly down Berner St from the Commercial Road. I believe the blue account is not by Mortimer but by a different witness, who saw a man with a black bag walking up Berner St just before the alarm was raised. In my view this implicates Goldstein as a possible suspect. He came forward with an alibi concerning the coffee shop but it appears that he was seen walking up the street after he had already established that alibi earlier.

Cheers, George