If Schwartz Lied ...

[NotBlamedForNothing]

What do you think about the possibility that Schwartz simply misheard BS Man? There are several possibilities of course and they’re all total speculation. One that was mentioned many years ago (I can’t recall who by) was that BS Man knew Stride and actually called out “Lizzie.” Or perhaps the killer recognised Pipeman and he was a Mr “Lindsay.”

Mishearing has to be a possibility, if Schwartz's story is true or half true. Many people seem to have known Stride as Long Liz, so this person must have been well acquainted to have been calling her Lizzie. I take it you're aware that Charles Letchford's sisters were Florence, Maud and Lizzie?

Whatever the case, I think Schwartz really wanted us to believe that the two men were not strangers to each other, and that they spoke to each other in terms of warnings and alerts. Schwartz may have partially deviated from that position temporarily, to keep Abberline happy, but the link between the men is really what he thought to be the case. I think it's a little odd that most people believe Schwartz in general, but doubt or simply do not believe Schwartz on that point.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Details can be mistaken but it doesn’t mean that the story as a whole was incorrect. I think it’s possible that Schwartz might have misinterpreted the seriousness of the situation though or at least a detail or two.

A scenario…

Pipeman knows Stride and has ‘feelings’ for her and he’s arranged to meet her by the gates. He’s also very jealous but at the same time a coward (as men who are violent to women are)

Stride stands just inside the gates to get out of the wind occasionally stepping out to see if Pipeman is coming. While she’s inside the gates BS Man walks along Berner Street with Schwartz not far behind him. Pipeman turns into Berner Street from Fairclough Street and doesn’t see Stride but sees a bloke walking along but pays no attention to him. He tries to light his pipe but struggles because it’s windy so he stands in the pub doorway at the corner of the street out of the wind. While he’s doing that he hears the ‘incident.’ He’s too much of a coward to get involved though but Schwartz sees him. BS Man wants Stride to go with him and pulls her away from the gates but she resists by pulling. She pulls free of BS and ends up on the ground. She tells him to go away and leave her alone. BS gives up and scarpers in the same initial direction as Schwartz who believes that he’s been followed by Pipeman. BS continues south on Berner Street though and Schwartz, looking back, realises that he’s not being followed. Pipeman walks up to Stride and they stand just inside the gate. The jealous Pipeman says something like “so who was your boyfriend then?” Words are exchanged and he ends up cutting her throat.

[Mark J D]

A scenario...

-- And just the kind of thing I like to see!

I am, though, a bit baffled by all these descriptions of people walking, shouting, following each other, spooning, and standing on doorsteps...

Is there anyone here who'd like to produce a diagram or two to make it clear where the hell all these people are...?!?

Thanks,

Mark D.

[Herlock Sholmes]

-- And just the kind of thing I like to see!

I am, though, a bit baffled by all these descriptions of people walking, shouting, following each other, spooning, and standing on doorsteps...

Is there anyone here who'd like to produce a diagram or two to make it clear where the hell all these people are...?!?

Thanks,

Mark D.

I’m unsure if one exists Mark. I’m a bit of a caveman when it comes to tech but I’m sure that someone could produce a diagram or 2. We would probably disagree on it though. This map gives you the house numbers though.

http://www.jacktherippermap.info/map.php

[JeffHamm]

Hi Herlock,

We can add the Zodiac to that list when he killed taxi driver Paul Stine, Jeff. I’ve always counted the fact that BS Man was seen as a point against him being the ripper but we can’t discount him of course. He might have been the killer but not the ripper of course. It’s worth mentioning Hutchinson too of course. Would the ripper have gone on to kill after someone had stopped down to look him in the eye?

Yes, Zodiac would be another example. And while I tend to think B.S. sudden attack on Stride seems out of character for JtR, it's not definitive or even strong evidence against the possibility, just a valid point of difference. I didn't mention Hutchinson as he is considered contentious and there's a lot of debate around the validity of his account, but if we consider his account based upon an actual sighting (just his description of it a bit dramatic and overly detailed) then yes, another possible sighting that again would suggest being seen did not deter JtR's subsequent actions. Once they commit a murder they'll get out of there of course, although it is not uncommon for them to hang around if the crime is indoors, such as with Mary Kelly. I've seen some suggest that Richard Chase, who was psychotic and delusional, did walk around in blood stained clothes in public after one of his crimes, but I'm not sure if that was reliable. Still, he was suffering from a full on psychotic break so it wouldn't surprise me. Sadly, I don't think that led to his apprehension.

- Jeff

[Herlock Sholmes]

Does anyone know the extent of Tiger Bay? Is it shown on a map? Was any part of Fairclough or Berner streets regarded as part of Tiger Bay?

I just got this info via a pm from Gary Barnett over on JTRForums on Tiger Bay.

https://www.jtrforums.com/forum/vict...7492-tiger-bay

[NotBlamedForNothing]

-- And just the kind of thing I like to see!

I am, though, a bit baffled by all these descriptions of people walking, shouting, following each other, spooning, and standing on doorsteps...

Is there anyone here who'd like to produce a diagram or two to make it clear where the hell all these people are...?!?

Thanks,

Mark D.

Hi Mark.

The full map from the 1894 Ordinance Map of Whitechapel Division page, is a good start.

Also, have a look at Jeff Leahy's pictures, here, here, here, here, here, here, and here.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

I just got this info via a pm from Gary Barnett over on JTRForums on Tiger Bay.

https://www.jtrforums.com/forum/vict...7492-tiger-bay

Excellent. Thanks for that.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Excellent. Thanks for that.

A question - how do you make a word in the text become a link in red?

[bolo]

A question - how do you make a word in the text become a link in red?

First copy the link in question in to the clipboard (CTRL+C or right-click and COPY), then mark the word you want the link to be under and click the Link button in the top row over the text input box. The Link button has a chain symbol on it (12th button from the right). Paste the URL into the corresponding field and hit Okay.

[Herlock Sholmes]

First copy the link in question in to the clipboard (CTRL+C or right-click and COPY), then mark the word you want the link to be under and click the Link button in the top row over the text input box. The Link button has a chain symbol on it (12th button from the right). Paste the URL into the corresponding field and hit Okay.

Thanks for that but I have an iPad. Plus I’m useless with tech.

[bolo]

Thanks for that but I have an iPad. Plus I’m useless with tech.

I see, sorry, can't help you here I'm afraid, I have no experience with IOS devices.

[Herlock Sholmes]

I see, sorry, can't help you here I'm afraid, I have no experience with IOS devices.

No problem. Thanks for the suggestion.

[erobitha]

No problem. Thanks for the suggestion.

I should not find these posts so amusing. I don't know why I do.
Herlock's tech issues keep me coming back to casebook more than most threads.

[Herlock Sholmes]

I should not find these posts so amusing. I don't know why I do.
Herlock's tech issues keep me coming back to casebook more than most threads.

It’s all witchcraft Erobitha.

You might find it hard to believe but I know quite a few people my age (56) who are far worse than I am. My main gripe is the language. Especially from tech companies and experts who I think are just completely incapable of explaining things clearly. An example is that a few weeks ago my iPad suddenly couldn’t ‘locate’ my printer. I ended up calling the helpline. I began by saying “look, I’m not a tech person. So please don’t to get too tech when you’re explaining.” The guy said “of course, no problem, I understand.” He then proceeded with 3 sentences that might as well have been in Norwegian! He simply couldn’t conceive that not everyone is an expert in computer technology. That not everyone knows what these things mean. I can use an iPad but if I try and read instructions my brain just shuts down. It’s sooo boring. I’m thinking “I don’t care about what’s causing it just fix the f****ng thing!
My other bugbear is when I’m considering something new and people say “it’s simple.” Yeah right. I can hardly remember anything that’s ‘simple.’ They give you a step by step guide but something always pops up leaving me thinking “well, you never mentioned this!”

Life’s complicated enough.