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  • Originally posted by Fiver View Post

    Neither 'about one o'clock' or 'exactly one o'clock', is of fundamental importance to the interruption theory. If Diemschutz had said he arrived at 12:55am that would have made the interruption theory more likely as it reduced the length of the time gap between Fanny Mortimer closing her door and his arrival.
    To zero or less?

    All the newspaper accounts prove is both Mortimer and Diemschutz thought he had interrupted Stride's killer. We have no idea if they talked about it, let alone gave each other ideas. Mortimer might have heard the idea from Diemschutz. She might have heard of it from someone else in the neighborhood. She might have heard about it from the reporter. She might not have thought it and the reporter put words in her mouth. She might have come to the conclusion on her own.

    So far you have provided no evidence of Diemshutz giving the interruption idea to Mortimer, nor have you provided any credible reason for him to do so.

    Diemschutz appears to have been saying 'about one o'clock' or 'exactly one o'clock' from the beginning, so he didn't get the idea from Mortimer. You have provided no credible reason for Diemschutz to lie about the time. You have provided no evidence that Diemschutz lied about the time.
    He sharpened up his arrival time, from an estimate, to a precise time supposedly determined by reading a clock in shop window. That is the evidence. Memory does not sharpen up over time.
    Andrew's the man, that is not blamed for nothing

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Fiver View Post

      Diemshutz probably would have approached Commercial Road and Berner Street from the west, not from the east.
      Agreed, but the clock was in the tobacconist shop on the eastern corner.

      Lamb was "on duty in Commercial-road, between Christian-street and Batty-street". Both of those streets are east of Berner, so he would have been coming from the east, not the west. He was contacted "shortly before one o'clock". This contradicts both Diemscutz and Smith's accounts on time.
      Lamb was coming from the east, Smith and Diemshitz from the west. Lamb told the coroner that he had previously come from the west passed the berner corner "6 or 7 minutes earlier". IMHO, Smith, Lamb and Ayliffe were using the Harris clock for their shift and beat times.

      Johnson and Blackwell were coming from "No. 100, Commercial-road," that is near the corner of Commercial and Batty, so they also would have approached Commercial Road and Berner Street from the east, not the west. Johnson and Blackwell do not refer to the Harris clock. Times given are based on Blackwell's watch.
      I believe the surgery was actually on the eastern corner of Batty St. Johnson's time may have been based on the house clock as Blackwell was in bed. On the other hand, Blackwell may have put his pocket watch on one of the stands that were popular at the time. We just don't know.

      So if people coming from the west had the best view of the Harris clock, then Diemschutz had best view and Lamb, Johnson, and Blackwell had inferior views.
      Quite the opposite as the clock was on the easten corner.
      Hi Fiver,

      This is Diemshitz testimony from the inquest:
      A Juror: Could you in going up the yard have passed the body without touching it? - Oh, yes.
      [Coroner] Any person going up the centre of the yard might have passed without noticing it? - I, perhaps, should not have noticed it if my pony had not shied. I had passed it when I got down from my barrow.

      This why Eagle and Lave could have walked past Stride's body and not noticed it.

      Cheers, George

      Comment


      • Originally posted by GBinOz View Post

        Hi Fiver,

        This is Diemshitz testimony from the inquest:
        A Juror: Could you in going up the yard have passed the body without touching it? - Oh, yes.
        [Coroner] Any person going up the centre of the yard might have passed without noticing it? - I, perhaps, should not have noticed it if my pony had not shied. I had passed it when I got down from my barrow.

        This why Eagle and Lave could have walked past Stride's body and not noticed it.

        Cheers, George
        I think it more likely that Eagle walked past Stride's upright and alive body, and did notice it. On his return to the club...

        C: Did you see anyone about in Berner-street?
        E: I dare say I did, but I do not remember them.


        Although this depends on the accuracy of Eagle's timing...

        E: I went through the front door on my way out at a quarter-past twelve, but returned to the club about 20 to one.
        C: Can you fix the time the discovery was made?
        E: About one o'clock was the time that I first saw the body. I did not notice the time, but I have calculated it from the time I left home to return to the club.


        How does this make any sense? Eagle is claiming to have calculated the discovery time, based on his return to the club some 20 minutes earlier, which in turn was based on his leaving home. Surely his calculation would only give him the return to club time.
        Furthermore, even if he knew fairly accurately how long it took him to walk from home to the club, we have to wonder how relevant that knowledge was...

        After the discussion, between half-past eleven and a quarter to twelve o'clock, I left the club to take my young lady home, going out through the front door.

        He apparently did not go home - instead he walked his young lady to her home. So his calculation seems even more irrelevant. I think he wanted to agree with Diemschitz, to create a coherent picture.

        The Times, Oct 1:

        Another member of the club, a Russian named Joseph Lave, went down into the court about 20 minutes before the body was discovered. He strolled into the street and returned to the concert room without having encountered anything unusual.

        Eagle tried the front door on his return, found it locked, and then went in via the side door. Presumably Lave had to use the same door. So did Mrs D see both men enter...?

        It was just one o'clock when my husband came home. Some twenty minutes previously a member of the club had entered by the side door, but he states that he did not then notice anybody lying prostrate in the yard. It was, however, very dark at the time, and he might, in consequence, have failed to see any such object on the ground.

        Apparently not. Lave's re-entry to the club is not corroborated.

        Arbeter Fraint: Immediately Comrade Gilyarovsky ran into the printing shop and editor's office that are located in the same building as the club, but separated in the back by the yard. There was no one in the printing shop. Comrades Krants and Yaffa were busy in the editor's office.

        Does Yaffa = Lave ?
        Andrew's the man, that is not blamed for nothing

        Comment


        • Hi NBFN,

          Originally posted by NotBlamedForNothing View Post

          I think it more likely that Eagle walked past Stride's upright and alive body, and did notice it. On his return to the club...

          C: Did you see anyone about in Berner-street?
          E: I dare say I did, but I do not remember them.


          Although this depends on the accuracy of Eagle's timing...

          E: I went through the front door on my way out at a quarter-past twelve, but returned to the club about 20 to one.
          C: Can you fix the time the discovery was made?
          E: About one o'clock was the time that I first saw the body. I did not notice the time, but I have calculated it from the time I left home to return to the club.


          How does this make any sense? Eagle is claiming to have calculated the discovery time, based on his return to the club some 20 minutes earlier, which in turn was based on his leaving home. Surely his calculation would only give him the return to club time.
          Furthermore, even if he knew fairly accurately how long it took him to walk from home to the club, we have to wonder how relevant that knowledge was...
          I'm not sure I understand why you see this as a problem? If he knows how long it takes him to get from club to home and home to club, then he can calculate his arrival time at the club. And if he had been back for 20 minutes, he can calculate the time he first saw the body. That's hardly non-sensical, it might be questionable as to his accuracy, but given he freely admits he's calculating (estimating) the time, we already know his time is associated with some degree of error, so will be better off fixing his time based upon more reliable sources (people who got the time from clocks).


          After the discussion, between half-past eleven and a quarter to twelve o'clock, I left the club to take my young lady home, going out through the front door.

          He apparently did not go home - instead he walked his young lady to her home. So his calculation seems even more irrelevant. I think he wanted to agree with Diemschitz, to create a coherent picture.
          I think you maybe overlooking some options. He and his young lady may have resided together, or close enough to make no difference. Or he also knows how long it takes to get from his lady's residence to the club. I don't understand why those have been overlooked and an immediate jump is made to imply he's only saying something because he had some desire to agree with Diemshutz? The former are far more likely than our guessing his internal thoughts and motivations based upon his description of how he went about estimating the time.


          The Times, Oct 1:

          Another member of the club, a Russian named Joseph Lave, went down into the court about 20 minutes before the body was discovered. He strolled into the street and returned to the concert room without having encountered anything unusual.

          Eagle tried the front door on his return, found it locked, and then went in via the side door. Presumably Lave had to use the same door. So did Mrs D see both men enter...?

          It was just one o'clock when my husband came home. Some twenty minutes previously a member of the club had entered by the side door, but he states that he did not then notice anybody lying prostrate in the yard. It was, however, very dark at the time, and he might, in consequence, have failed to see any such object on the ground.

          Apparently not. Lave's re-entry to the club is not corroborated.
          Do you mean Eagle's re-entry is not corroborated? I mean, Lave goes out around 20 to 1, strolls a bit, and returns, which reads like he's out for a couple minutes, and he indicates he didn't see the body at that time. Mrs. D. indicates that roughly 20 minutes before Mr. D. returns, a club member entered who didn't see anything. That sounds like Lave re-entering doesn't it? How have you draw the conclusion that Mrs. D's unnamed entrant must be Eagle and not Lave? I mean, of course it could be Eagle as he estimates he returned around that time too, but as all of these are estimated times, there's no real conflict here. Since Eagle and Lave do not mention each other we can conclude one of them arrived before the other with both arriving in the vicinity of 12:40, and Mrs. D was in the kitchen around 12:40 when one of them arrived. There's no reason to suppose she was in the kitchen all the time of course, so being there for one and not the other isn't a problem as they may have arrived with 2 or 3 minutes between them. For example, if she had gone in to get food or tea, she could easily have exited prior to the other arriving, or the first one arrived before she went to the kitchen in the first place and she was there for the arrival of the 2nd. Only takes a small window of a couple of minutes for those sorts of things, and a window of a couple of minutes still makes both of the "around 12:40" arrival times fair descriptions. The club was an active place, there was a lot of social activity going on, so people are moving about, conversing, singing, etc. Not recalling the exact comings and goings of each and every person there is to be expected; in fact, if there were a conspiracy of the club, one would expect a lot less of this sort of differing stories as they would all be working from the same script.


          Arbeter Fraint: Immediately Comrade Gilyarovsky ran into the printing shop and editor's office that are located in the same building as the club, but separated in the back by the yard. There was no one in the printing shop. Comrades Krants and Yaffa were busy in the editor's office.

          Does Yaffa = Lave ?
          No idea, but without something to suggest that link, it would seem a bit of a gamble.

          - Jeff

          Comment


          • Originally posted by FrankO View Post
            Hi George,

            A little odd perhaps, but maybe she just didn’t hear it when Smith returned on the other side of the street (and she was perhaps further away from the street side of the house).


            But supposing for a moment that Smith only went up Berner Street on that occasion (and not immediately down again, too), then which route would he have taken to arrive at the corner of Berner Street & Commercial Road at about 1 am (or a little later), without leaving out much (or anything at all) of what he ought to cover on his beat?

            Cheers,
            Frank
            Hi Frank,

            As I said in another post, I found it a little odd for Smith to be coming down Berner St and Back up again, but couldn't work out how he wouldn't have without contravening Bromley's map. Perhaps the answer is here:
            https://www.casebook.org/timeline.stride.html

            "Police Constable William Smith, 452H, came on duty. His patrol took him 25-30 minutes and covered Commercial Rd, Grover St, Christian St, and Fairclough St, including Berner St. (Some reports may list Grover St as Gower St.)49".

            And here:
            https://www.casebook.org/police_offi...am_smith.html#

            This shows an animated map that acheived Smith heading up Berner St. The perimeter shown is described in the A-Z by Begg, Fido and Skinner, and was the map I was originally using. It does take out those perculiar little u-turns to Gowers Walk and Grover St, as well as the up and downs in berner and Batty. I haven't been able to reproduce the map here, but that may be within your technical capability.

            Cheers, George

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Varqm View Post


              First of all debating with you on this is somewhat senseless.First you ddid not know the coroner was separate
              fromn the police and it was the coroner's call to put witnesses on the stand not the police's.

              Of course I knew that the Coroner was separate from the police. A child would know that.

              Second you did not know
              that the who,where,when and how where not the only aims of the inquest,but also the facts and circumstances of the case.
              And yet you continue aattacking and lambasting without knowing the 2 above.

              And you completely ignored David Orsam’s article which was properly researched.

              Yes it did mean Schwartz's statement was submitted to the inquest.

              Please provide documentary evidence of that whenever you have the time.

              But it was the Coroner's call to put witnesses on the
              not the police's.The inquest was big news and no mention of an assault on Stride was glaring,everybody would have
              known Schwartz or a Schwartz did not attend.

              You are making a pointless point. Someone made a point that Schwartz wasn’t at the Inquest because the police had no confidence in him. You however said that you thought that he hadn’t attended the Inquest because the Coroner had no faith in him. I just mistakenly thought that you were going with the former. You are trying to make a big deal out of absolutely nothing just to try and score a point Varqm.

              Yes it is enough not to put Schwartz in the inquest becuase the 2 statements was too different.Anybody with common sense
              would not.As explained countless of times the Coroner then would have to try to determine which of the two statements
              were true,in front of the jury,press and police.

              Please read and digest David Orsam’s piece on this subject. You are wrong.

              And even after then there would still be doubts about his statement.
              It would be silly and derail the inquest.Even Caroline Maxwell whose statement was in disagreement with the police's
              estimated time of death was in,because she did not not flinch and change her statements.

              Again, please provide the proof that Schwartz wasn’t called to the Inquest due to the Coroners lack of faith. Until you can you’re just whistling in the dark. I think David gave 8 suggestions as to why Schwartz didn’t attend. He claims none of them as a fact though. You however are making your suggestion, based on zero evidence, as a fact so please don’t lecture me or anyone else on this. We all use conjecture. We don’t all state it as fact.

              Common sense.Again read the inquests ,the 5,the way the Coroners interpret the
              Coroners act,they created a timeline in showing the facts and circumstances about the case which was an aim of an
              inquest. Inquests included murders,fires accidents, drowning.

              The Coroners Act that you ignored a chunk of. Read DO.

              Common sense.It was about a murder.Again in any murder case/inquiry an assault 15 minutes before a murder is a must.If you do not believe this there is no point arguing with you.
              I look forward to seeing your evidence Varqm (as opposed to your opinion.) Tick tock…….



              Regards

              Sir Herlock Sholmes



              "Tis but a part we see, and not a whole."

              ”Baroni licitum est dicere troglodytam”

              Comment


              • .
                There is plenty of evidence that Diemschitz sharpened up his original estimate. The reason I've given for him doing so, is as good as any other
                There just isn’t. This is imaginative fiction on your part to shoe in a cover up. As Fiver said, if he wanted to increase the possibility of interruption then 12.55 would have been a better option. Also, are you suggesting that he had control over what Mortimer said.

                We know what time the body was found…….1.00. It’s very simple.
                Regards

                Sir Herlock Sholmes



                "Tis but a part we see, and not a whole."

                ”Baroni licitum est dicere troglodytam”

                Comment


                • . That would mean the pony did not shy until past the body.

                  The Echo: ...the wheel of my cart bumped against something.

                  On stony ground, that must have been a substantial bump. Yet no bump marks on the victim. Time for another story - the whip and prod.
                  You need to stop obsessing over trivial discrepancies in Press reports.
                  Regards

                  Sir Herlock Sholmes



                  "Tis but a part we see, and not a whole."

                  ”Baroni licitum est dicere troglodytam”

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by NotBlamedForNothing View Post

                    You are ignoring the evidence. Diemschitz said it was the cart that contacted something, not the pony as you are trying to suggest.

                    I was coming home from market at one o'clock on Sunday morning. I am a traveller by trade, and go to different markets to sell my goods. Yesterday I went to Westow-hill. As the night was so wet I did not stay quite so late as usual. After I had passed through the gate which had been left open on driving into the yard my donkey shied a little in consequence of my cart coming in contact with something on the ground.

                    This suggests the cart was closer to the right wall than the left. Or was it...?

                    My pony is frisky and apt to shy, though not much, and it struck me when I was passing through the double gates into the yard that he wanted to keep too much to the left side against the wall.

                    It seems as though Diemschitz discovery story went through a few revisions. Which leads me to believe that he was not the discoverer.
                    Any quote saying ‘donkey’ needs ignoring.
                    Regards

                    Sir Herlock Sholmes



                    "Tis but a part we see, and not a whole."

                    ”Baroni licitum est dicere troglodytam”

                    Comment


                    • .
                      I think it more likely that Eagle walked past Stride's upright and alive body, and did notice it. On his return to the club...
                      I’ve heard it all now. Further down the rabbit-hole we go. Maybe Liz was killed by Dracula and became one of the Undead?
                      Last edited by Herlock Sholmes; 07-13-2021, 07:34 AM.
                      Regards

                      Sir Herlock Sholmes



                      "Tis but a part we see, and not a whole."

                      ”Baroni licitum est dicere troglodytam”

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by JeffHamm View Post
                        Hi NBFN,

                        I'm not sure I understand why you see this as a problem? If he knows how long it takes him to get from club to home and home to club, then he can calculate his arrival time at the club. And if he had been back for 20 minutes, he can calculate the time he first saw the body. That's hardly non-sensical, it might be questionable as to his accuracy, but given he freely admits he's calculating (estimating) the time, we already know his time is associated with some degree of error, so will be better off fixing his time based upon more reliable sources (people who got the time from clocks).
                        Calculating the time based on experience of travelling between two points, is not the same a single subjective estimate. At best, he could have calculated his return time to the club.

                        When I first saw the body of deceased, I should say it was about 1 o'clock, although I did not look at the clock.

                        That is not a calculation, so Eagle's use of that term in relation to the discovery of the body is misleading.

                        I think you maybe overlooking some options. He and his young lady may have resided together, or close enough to make no difference. Or he also knows how long it takes to get from his lady's residence to the club. I don't understand why those have been overlooked and an immediate jump is made to imply he's only saying something because he had some desire to agree with Diemshutz? The former are far more likely than our guessing his internal thoughts and motivations based upon his description of how he went about estimating the time.
                        Eagle told the coroner that he lived at 4, New-road, Commercial-road. Not particularly far from the club.
                        London Evening News, Oct 1:

                        I frequent the club. I went into it about 12:40 on this night that you are asking me about, which was about 20 minutes before the body was discovered. I had been in the club before that evening, and had left the premises at midnight in order to see my girl home, with whom I was keeping company. I saw my sweetheart to the door of the house where she was living, and then walked back to the club through little small streets. On my way I saw nothing to excite my attention. There were numbers of persons about of both sexes, and several prostitutes; but there are always a lot of people in the streets, and they are generally very lively at this time of night. I can swear that there was nothing in the streets to arouse my suspicions or the suspicions of any other man in his senses. After seeing my girl home, I went back to the club in Berner-street. The front door was closed, so I went round to the back door on the left-hand side. Later on I went over the same ground with Diemschitz. There is nothing unusual in members of the club going in to the club by the side door; in fact we often do so, when we go in to the club late at night, so as to prevent the knocking at the door, which might be a nuisance to the neighbours. There is no light of any sort in the yard, though there are lights in the street, as there are in every other street. In the club we had a rare good time. We were singing songs and all that sort of thing. Then there was a sudden scare among us; Diemschitz came in and said a woman had been murdered outside. I ran into the yard immediately and I saw in the yard a stream of blood. There was a general hue and cry for the police. I and others went off to find the officers, so I had no opportunity of seeing the body. Besides, I did not want to look at it, as those sights make me feel ill.

                        The blue highlight is for anyone who supposes that Eagle could not have possibly seen Stride on his return to the club, or that the entire episode that involved Schwartz, could have gone completely unnoticed.
                        The red highlight should be considered against the following from the inquest.

                        I had been there about 20 minutes, when a member named Gilleman came upstairs and said, "There is a dead woman lying in the yard."

                        Who came in and told the members about the murder - Diemschitz or Gilleman?

                        Do you mean Eagle's re-entry is not corroborated? I mean, Lave goes out around 20 to 1, strolls a bit, and returns, which reads like he's out for a couple minutes, and he indicates he didn't see the body at that time. Mrs. D. indicates that roughly 20 minutes before Mr. D. returns, a club member entered who didn't see anything. That sounds like Lave re-entering doesn't it? How have you draw the conclusion that Mrs. D's unnamed entrant must be Eagle and not Lave? I mean, of course it could be Eagle as he estimates he returned around that time too, but as all of these are estimated times, there's no real conflict here. Since Eagle and Lave do not mention each other we can conclude one of them arrived before the other with both arriving in the vicinity of 12:40, and Mrs. D was in the kitchen around 12:40 when one of them arrived. There's no reason to suppose she was in the kitchen all the time of course, so being there for one and not the other isn't a problem as they may have arrived with 2 or 3 minutes between them. For example, if she had gone in to get food or tea, she could easily have exited prior to the other arriving, or the first one arrived before she went to the kitchen in the first place and she was there for the arrival of the 2nd. Only takes a small window of a couple of minutes for those sorts of things, and a window of a couple of minutes still makes both of the "around 12:40" arrival times fair descriptions. The club was an active place, there was a lot of social activity going on, so people are moving about, conversing, singing, etc. Not recalling the exact comings and goings of each and every person there is to be expected; in fact, if there were a conspiracy of the club, one would expect a lot less of this sort of differing stories as they would all be working from the same script.
                        Quotes from the MA, Oct 2:

                        Eagle: I went through the front door on my way out at a quarter-past twelve, but returned to the club about 20 to one. When I returned the front door was closed, so I went in at the back door in the yard and along the passage into the club.

                        Mrs D: Some twenty minutes previously a member of the club had entered by the side door, but he states that he did not then notice anybody lying prostrate in the yard.

                        Baxter: Did you notice anything lying on the ground?
                        Eagle: No, I did not notice anything as I came in.

                        Mrs D: It was, however, very dark at the time, and he might, in consequence, have failed to see any such object on the ground.

                        Baxter: Can you say whether the deceased was lying there then?
                        Eagle: I could not say for certain; it was very dark near the gates, and only the lights from the club shone into the yard.

                        Reporter: Mila, the servant at the club, strongly corroborates the statement made by her mistress, and is equally convinced there were no sounds coming from the yard between 20 minutes to one and one o'clock.

                        Sarah Diemschitz was almost definitely referring to Eagle. So where did Lave come and go from?

                        No idea, but without something to suggest that link, it would seem a bit of a gamble.
                        If Lave did not go into the club, then the editor's office would seem a good bet.
                        Andrew's the man, that is not blamed for nothing

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by JeffHamm View Post
                          I suppose, though, if we use his beat time of 25-30 minutes as his usual short and long circuit time, then perhaps he was only responsible for the eastern side of Back Church Lane and there was another beat that covered the western side (and so those side streets). There's a court, or square, just by the C in Church (of Back Church Lane), which he probably had to cycle through, so if we removed the western side streets and included that and the other "interior" sides, we're probably looking at something like this:
                          I think your version makes much more sense than mine does, Jeff, so I take it that Smith walked his beat, quite likely, the way your image shows, taking only the "interior" streets and alleys on the eastern side of Backchurch Lane. I see you may have missed 2 nooks or crannies on the stretch on Commercial Road between Gower's Walk and Backchurch Lane. They look like they could be a dead-end alley and a yard like Dutfield's Yard, but I'm not sure.

                          Anyway, yes, looking at the various possibilities suggested, given the possibility of him being inside some nook or cranny, or at quite some distance, it is possible to understand why he may not have heard the commotion. I find sorting out these beats, where possible, to be really helpful, and a lot of things that seem bizarre suddenly make a sort of sense once we get a better idea of where the police were (or roughly where they were) at various times.
                          I completely concur with you, doing this sort of excercises often gives a lot of new insight. My guess would be that Smith was in either one of the nooks between Backchurch Lane and Gower's Walk or just about to arrive back at his starting point, when Eagle came shouting around the corner of Berner Street and Commercial Road. The next best thing would be the sort of square just above Batty Gardens, right opposite the entrance to Brunswick Place on the eastern side of Backchurch Lane.

                          All the best,
                          Frank
                          "You can rob me, you can starve me and you can beat me and you can kill me. Just don't bore me."
                          Clint Eastwood as Gunny in "Heartbreak Ridge"

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by NotBlamedForNothing View Post

                            Calculating the time based on experience of travelling between two points, is not the same a single subjective estimate. At best, he could have calculated his return time to the club.

                            When I first saw the body of deceased, I should say it was about 1 o'clock, although I did not look at the clock.

                            That is not a calculation, so Eagle's use of that term in relation to the discovery of the body is misleading.
                            He's not writing a technical report, he's speaking and saying how he came up with the time. He knows his travel times, and he estimated he was back for about 20 minutes, he adds up those times (a calculation by the way) and gives his estimate.




                            Eagle told the coroner that he lived at 4, New-road, Commercial-road. Not particularly far from the club.
                            London Evening News, Oct 1:

                            I frequent the club. I went into it about 12:40 on this night that you are asking me about, which was about 20 minutes before the body was discovered. I had been in the club before that evening, and had left the premises at midnight in order to see my girl home, with whom I was keeping company. I saw my sweetheart to the door of the house where she was living, and then walked back to the club through little small streets. On my way I saw nothing to excite my attention. There were numbers of persons about of both sexes, and several prostitutes; but there are always a lot of people in the streets, and they are generally very lively at this time of night. I can swear that there was nothing in the streets to arouse my suspicions or the suspicions of any other man in his senses. After seeing my girl home, I went back to the club in Berner-street. The front door was closed, so I went round to the back door on the left-hand side. Later on I went over the same ground with Diemschitz. There is nothing unusual in members of the club going in to the club by the side door; in fact we often do so, when we go in to the club late at night, so as to prevent the knocking at the door, which might be a nuisance to the neighbours. There is no light of any sort in the yard, though there are lights in the street, as there are in every other street. In the club we had a rare good time. We were singing songs and all that sort of thing. Then there was a sudden scare among us; Diemschitz came in and said a woman had been murdered outside. I ran into the yard immediately and I saw in the yard a stream of blood. There was a general hue and cry for the police. I and others went off to find the officers, so I had no opportunity of seeing the body. Besides, I did not want to look at it, as those sights make me feel ill.

                            The blue highlight is for anyone who supposes that Eagle could not have possibly seen Stride on his return to the club, or that the entire episode that involved Schwartz, could have gone completely unnoticed.
                            He may have passed her, she was seen in the area by others, but he didn't take notice of her and didn't recall seeing her if he did. What that's hardly surprising, not everyone remembers every person they pass while going to and fro, it doesn't constitute proof he did see her, it only allows the conjecture he may have passed her. Some people do recall random people they see, some don't, and some people pass an area when others are not there.


                            The red highlight should be considered against the following from the inquest.

                            I had been there about 20 minutes, when a member named Gilleman came upstairs and said, "There is a dead woman lying in the yard."

                            Who came in and told the members about the murder - Diemschitz or Gilleman?
                            That seems pretty simple, Diemshutz came in, told people, and the news spread. At some point Gilleman hears, probably when Diemshutz first made his announcement but I can't say that for sure, and then Gilleman went upstairs to tell others. It is the sort of thing that people would likely pass on once they hear it after all.




                            Quotes from the MA, Oct 2:

                            Eagle: I went through the front door on my way out at a quarter-past twelve, but returned to the club about 20 to one. When I returned the front door was closed, so I went in at the back door in the yard and along the passage into the club.

                            Mrs D: Some twenty minutes previously a member of the club had entered by the side door, but he states that he did not then notice anybody lying prostrate in the yard.

                            Baxter: Did you notice anything lying on the ground?
                            Eagle: No, I did not notice anything as I came in.

                            Mrs D: It was, however, very dark at the time, and he might, in consequence, have failed to see any such object on the ground.

                            Baxter: Can you say whether the deceased was lying there then?
                            Eagle: I could not say for certain; it was very dark near the gates, and only the lights from the club shone into the yard.

                            Reporter: Mila, the servant at the club, strongly corroborates the statement made by her mistress, and is equally convinced there were no sounds coming from the yard between 20 minutes to one and one o'clock.

                            Sarah Diemschitz was almost definitely referring to Eagle. So where did Lave come and go from?
                            Sure, I can see that, as I indicated earlier that she could be referring to Eagle, but from what you presented, she could have been referring to Lave as well. We don't know where Lave went, but as I said, he could easily enter the club and not have been seen doing so by Mrs. D. That's still not a thing.



                            If Lave did not go into the club, then the editor's office would seem a good bet.
                            And if Lave did go into the club, then the editor's office would be a losing bet. We don't know where he went as it is not, to my knowledge, recorded. All else is guess work.

                            - Jeff

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by FrankO View Post
                              I think your version makes much more sense than mine does, Jeff, so I take it that Smith walked his beat, quite likely, the way your image shows, taking only the "interior" streets and alleys on the eastern side of Backchurch Lane. I see you may have missed 2 nooks or crannies on the stretch on Commercial Road between Gower's Walk and Backchurch Lane. They look like they could be a dead-end alley and a yard like Dutfield's Yard, but I'm not sure.

                              I completely concur with you, doing this sort of excercises often gives a lot of new insight. My guess would be that Smith was in either one of the nooks between Backchurch Lane and Gower's Walk or just about to arrive back at his starting point, when Eagle came shouting around the corner of Berner Street and Commercial Road. The next best thing would be the sort of square just above Batty Gardens, right opposite the entrance to Brunswick Place on the eastern side of Backchurch Lane.

                              All the best,
                              Frank
                              Hi Frank.

                              Yes, you're right, I did miss a couple bits there. I think we're getting close to what his beat probably was. We can never be positive, but it's starting to look reasonable. And yes, spending some time plotting out beats, or other known routes of travel that we hear about in the testimony, can be very helpful to get a feel for the dynamics of the events. I find there are some mysteries get clarified doing this. When we can see roughly where the various PC were at critical times, then it really helps understand what was going on, and how or why things progressed as they did.

                              - Jeff

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by drstrange169 View Post
                                >>What reason are you proposing for his ignoring the Harris clock?<<

                                This wasn't addressed to me, so forgive me for jumping in.

                                Why would he look at the clock?

                                When he passed it, according to his own testimony, he had no idea anything was happening. It was only when he got into Berner St that he saw something was going on. Even then he had no idea there was a murder until he got to the gates.
                                If he told Baxter and Scotland yard that he did look at the clock, obviously they would have mentioned the contradiction. Their silence is proof the newspapers that reported him saying "about one" were the correct ones.
                                I don't see how anyone could reasonably dispute this, Dusty. Or more to the point, why anyone would want to.

                                Smith knew roughly when it was, from the time it usually took for him to complete his beat. Had he looked at the clock before he became aware that the actual time that night would take on a greater significance, he wouldn't have used the word "about" in any context.

                                "If you want to know the time, ask a policeman." Smith would have been exact, in all those newspaper reports, if he'd had a special reason for clocking that clock.

                                Love,

                                Caz
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                                "Comedy is simply a funny way of being serious." Peter Ustinov


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