If Schwartz Lied ...

[GBinOz]

Spooner must have known Harris, because he referred to him by name. I'm not convinced from Times report (below)............Hello, my name's Harris. What's happening.

The two men who who apparently heard and responded to the early whistle, Herschburg and Harris, knew a man who was on the street at the time of the murder - by sheer coincidence ... or not. I don't think there is evidence that either knew Spooner.

Mr Harris apparently said he responded to the whistle, but where was he at the time? Spooner said he met Harris on his way to the yard. He also said Harris came running after him. So when Spooner set off, was Harris behind him, or in front of him? Spooner said he was in his house (below). Harris followed him until he got his attention to ask questions.

If Harris was not in the yard, then who are the men in the DN report I quoted in #2662? What do you suppose Harris did, if not go into the yard?
Do you mean the men you named? According to list below Harris, Isaacs(Koze) and Jacobs were WVC. I don't see Spooner or Herschburg on the list. I think that Harris stayed aound his home and was the person seen by Brown directing Collins to the yard. JMO.

Was Spooner's lady friend in the yard? There is no report that states she was. I don't think she was at the yard.

Hi Andrew,

Times 3 Oct 1888:- By the jury. - As I was going to Berner-street I did not meet any one except Mr. Harris, who came out of his house in Tiger Bay (Brunswick-street). Mr. Harris told me he had heard the policeman's whistle blowing.


THE MEMBERS OF THE WHITECHAPEL VIGILANCE COMMITTEE

George Lusk - President	Joseph Aarons - Treasurer
Mr. B. Harris - Honorary Secretary	Mr. J. A. Cohen - Committee Member
Mr. Reeves - Committee Member	Mr. Haughton - Committee Member
Mr. Lindsay - Committee Member	Mr. Jacobs - Committee Member
Mr. Isaacs - Committee Member	Mr. Mitchell - Committee Member
Mr. Hodgins - Committee Member	Mr. Barnett - Committee Member
Mr. Lord - Committee Member	Mr. Lawton - Committee Member
Mr. Vander Hunt - Committee Member	Mr. Sheed - Committee Member
Mr. Van Gelder - Committee Member	Albert Bachert - Chairman (1889)

Cheers, George

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Hi George.

I'm not convinced from Times report (below)............Hello, my name's Harris. What's happening.

I can't see this happening on Spooner's short journey to the yard, although if they did meet on the way, then Harris was between Spooner at the intersection of F&C, and the yard. In that case Harris would have at least as much idea as to what was going on, as Spooner.

I don't think there is evidence that either knew Spooner.

How did Spooner immediately recognize there was on woman on the ground, even before a match was struck, whereas Lamb could only see a dark object? I think Mr Harris had a lantern. So Mr Harris could have been WVC. Spooner knows Harris's name, and there is independent evidence that Spooner was WVC. Therefore it can be inferred that these two knew each other. Same but different for Herschburg and Koster.

Do you mean the men you named? According to list below Harris, Isaacs(Koze) and Jacobs were WVC. I don't see Spooner or Herschburg on the list. I think that Harris stayed aound his home and was the person seen by Brown directing Collins to the yard. JMO.

No, I mean the unnamed men, who sound exactly like Spooner, and how I would expect Mr Harris to have behaved.

I'm not buying that Kozebrodski was known as Mr Isaacs. I think IK was 18 in 1888. Perhaps a bit young to be on the committee? Jacobs, maybe.

Spooner and Herschburg would not be on the committee, either. The committee men participated in the patrols, but not all patrolmen were committee members. For example...

Inexperienced in practical police duty, the committee decided to call in professional assistance rather than rely solely upon their own resources. For this purpose they engaged the services of two private detectives - men who, though unattached to either metropolitan or city police forces, hold themselves out as experts in the unravelling of mysteries. At the disposal of these executive officers are placed about a dozen stalwart men possessing an intimate acquaintance with the highways and by-ways of Whitechapel. Only those have been selected who are "physically and morally" equal to the task they may any night be called upon to perform. As they were previously numbered among the unemployed, it became unnecessary to fix a high scale of remuneration.

I can't see why Harris would have hung around where he'd met Spooner. What would be the point? It's difficult to tell what Brown was seeing, and I guess it could have been Collins at a later point, but why was Collins standing, and not moving toward the direction of the whistle?

Hi Andrew,

Times 3 Oct 1888:- By the jury. - As I was going to Berner-street I did not meet any one except Mr. Harris, who came out of his house in Tiger Bay (Brunswick-street). Mr. Harris told me he had heard the policeman's whistle blowing.

Cheers, George

Which I don't believe was true. I think he was out on the street. By the way, no man by the name of Harris has been found living in Brunswick street, at around that time.

[GBinOz]

Hi George.

I can't see this happening on Spooner's short journey to the yard, although if they did meet on the way, then Harris was between Spooner at the intersection of F&C, and the yard. In that case Harris would have at least as much idea as to what was going on, as Spooner.
We all have to make assessments on what we believe, or not.

How did Spooner immediately recognize there was on woman on the ground, even before a match was struck, whereas Lamb could only see a dark object? I think Mr Harris had a lantern. So Mr Harris could have been WVC. Spooner knows Harris's name, and there is independent evidence that Spooner was WVC. Therefore it can be inferred that these two knew each other. Same but different for Herschburg and Koster.
Ever heard of the term " Bulls**t Artist"? Perhaps Spooner considered himself a legend in his own mind? There is zero evidence of Harris at the yard, with or without a lantern.

No, I mean the unnamed men, who sound exactly like Spooner, and how I would expect Mr Harris to have behaved. You've lost me here... English subtitles please.

I'm not buying that Kozebrodski was known as Mr Isaacs. I think IK was 18 in 1888. Perhaps a bit young to be on the committee? Jacobs, maybe. I think it naive to consider that old men didn't use young men to do their bidding. Look at WW1.

Spooner and Herschburg would not be on the committee, either. The committee men participated in the patrols, but not all patrolmen were committee members. For example...

Inexperienced in practical police duty, the committee decided to call in professional assistance rather than rely solely upon their own resources. For this purpose they engaged the services of two private detectives - men who, though unattached to either metropolitan or city police forces, hold themselves out as experts in the unravelling of mysteries. At the disposal of these executive officers are placed about a dozen stalwart men possessing an intimate acquaintance with the highways and by-ways of Whitechapel. Only those have been selected who are "physically and morally" equal to the task they may any night be called upon to perform. As they were previously numbered among the unemployed, it became unnecessary to fix a high scale of remuneration.

I can't see why Harris would have hung around where he'd met Spooner. What would be the point? It's difficult to tell what Brown was seeing, and I guess it could have been Collins at a later point, but why was Collins standing, and not moving toward the direction of the whistle?
Once again I commend your research. I wasn't there but I can speculate than Collins heard the whistle, the same as Harris, and arrived to find now one there, and stood wondering what to do when Harris informed him of the situation.

Which I don't believe was true. I think he was out on the street. By the way, no man by the name of Harris has been found living in Brunswick street, at around that time.

It was a deposition under oath by Spooner. It is your choice whether to believe it or not.

Cheers, George

[JeffHamm]

We know Harris and Spooner are both at the scene, and that over the course of the evening the police show up and hold everyone there. We know there is a lot of activity, people caught up in a situation. People meet, and so without knowing each other prior, still can learn names. Without the specifics being available to us, all we know is that the activity at the scene leaves open the very real possibility that they learn each other's names there. We don't have all the details, so we don't know, but we can't rule out the simple, which means the complex is not necessary. Keep it as simple as you can, and find the bits that still don't fit. Those are the mysteries. The others are will-o-the-wisps, and they lead you astray, down rabbit holes from which you may never return. Sure, we may not get it all, but we can get close, and after all this time, that might be the best we can hope for. If new information emerges, be prepared to change your mind. But so far, Frank O, George, and myself, have put together timelines that produce the same overall story. The missing details may be lost to us, but I think three independent looks, that all result in the same thing, is worthy of consideration that there are no hidden agendas among the characters, and so simple, albeit boring, explanatíons, are really what we should be considering first. But I'm a fan of the dull and mundane.

- Jeff

[GBinOz]

We know Harris and Spooner are both at the scene, and that over the course of the evening the police show up and hold everyone there.
- Jeff

Hi Jeff,

Is there a reference to Harris being at the Yard? If so, I owe Andrew an apology.

Cheers, George

[NotBlamedForNothing]

As Lamb's testimony had preceded Spooner's, Baxter knows Lamb was the first PC on the scene, and that Lamb blew his whistle. So what did Baxter make of this...?

I did not meet any one as I was hastening to Berner-street except Mr. Harris, who was coming out of his house in Tiger Bay, having heard the police whistle.

Baxter seems to have let this apparent contradiction go unquestioned. Did he know Spooner and Harris were WVC? Just as there appears to have been knowledge of the Schwartz account at the inquest, there appears to be other 'background' knowledge that is never made explicit. Yet even if Baxter had missed the whistle anomaly, how could Spooner have done the same? Why didn't it occur to Spooner to wonder how Harris could have heard a police whistle prior to his arrival at the yard, when he has already stated that Lamb arrived about 5 minutes after he did? The blast of Lamb's whistle must have been very loud in his ear, so he cannot have failed to wonder what Harris was talking about.

[JeffHamm]

Hi Jeff,

Is there a reference to Harris being at the Yard? If so, I owe Andrew an apology.

Cheers, George

I thought there was? Perhaps I'm mis-remembering something else? I don't have all the news reports at my fingertips, so it's quite possible I've made an error simply because it sounded familiar. However, while I don't always agree with Andrew's interpretation (hardly surprising, put 2 of us from these boards in the same room and 3 opinions are likely to emerge after all), I do trust that if he's says there is a news report that there is one. He's clearly scoured those pretty thoroughly, and often brings up some pretty obscure ones. But I agree, best for us all to see the the same data before we start venturing on interpreting it.

It could be I took the quote he includes above as indicating Harris went to check things out though.

- Jeff

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Reid: A thorough search was made by the police of the yard and the houses in it, but no trace could be found of any person who might have committed the murder. As soon as the search was over the whole of the persons who had come into the yard and the members of the club were interrogated, their names and addresses taken, their pockets searched by the police, and their clothes and hands examined by the doctors. The people were twenty-eight in number. Each was dealt with separately, and they properly accounted for themselves.

Perhaps we need a new thread for debating Reid's list of 28?

[GBinOz]

Reid: A thorough search was made by the police of the yard and the houses in it, but no trace could be found of any person who might have committed the murder. As soon as the search was over the whole of the persons who had come into the yard and the members of the club were interrogated, their names and addresses taken, their pockets searched by the police, and their clothes and hands examined by the doctors. The people were twenty-eight in number. Each was dealt with separately, and they properly accounted for themselves.

Perhaps we need a new thread for debating Reid's list of 28?

But first, can you provide a reference to show that Harris was at the yard (no conjecture please)?

Cheers, George

[NotBlamedForNothing]

But first, can you provide a reference to show that Harris was at the yard (no conjecture please)?

Cheers, George

Negative. I only have a theory.

[JeffHamm]

Negative. I only have a theory.

Ooops! I think I had the same idea though, but then, my view tends to be that anyone the press interviewed was there at some point - which is why the press interviewed them. But, that's an assumption, not a fact, so ...

- Jeff

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Does anyone know the extent of Tiger Bay? Is it shown on a map? Was any part of Fairclough or Berner streets regarded as part of Tiger Bay?

[GBinOz]

Does anyone know the extent of Tiger Bay? Is it shown on a map? Was any part of Fairclough or Berner streets regarded as part of Tiger Bay?

Tiger Bay was Brunswick St and surrounds. Brunswick St runs south from Fairclough, the intersection being just east of Batty St.

Cheers, George

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Tiger Bay was Brunswick St and surrounds. Brunswick St runs south from Fairclough, the intersection being just east of Batty St.

Cheers, George

I found this description.

Berners-street is in a very notorious part of Whitechapel; it is close to a district which was formerly known as Tiger Bay, because of the ferocious character of the deperadoes who frequented it. A few yards distant is the house wherein Lipski murdered Miriam Angel, and the neighbourhood generally has an evil repute.

I take this to mean that Fairclough street marked the northern boundary.

Was Spooner standing within Tiger Bay?

Harris's claim to have come out of his home in Tiger Bay, seems almost intentionally non-specific.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Hi all,

Ok, I've had a go at trying to put together a timeline of events. I'm using Dr. Blackwell's watch as the standard time, meaning, witness statements of times are based upon other clocks and so we would expect some error due to their clock reading differently from Dr. Blackwell's. Presumably, though, the times shouldn't be hugely different, but a difference of 10 minutes between two clocks would not be unexpected. So, what I've been doing is trying to work backwards from Dr. Blackwell's time of arrival when we know his watch read 1:16. BST is "Blackwell Standard Time", so the recreation times are all stated in BST, and I'll do my best to explain what I've done. I chose a clock-sync error of +-10 minutes (as I had mentioned that in earlier posts, I stuck with it). When working backwards, to estimate times in BST, if someone stated a duration (i.e. x minutes later event A happens), then I translated their estimated duration using the average for that estimated duration (the table at the end of this post). If they estimated a range (X-Y minutes), I averaged the table values for X-Y minutes. When people described their movements (went from A-B), I measured that distance on the maps, and used 3.1 mph for walking, 2.5 mph for a PC on their beat, and 6.1 mph for people running. That would give me an estimated duration for their actions. Then, I could compare the recreation time for their actions to their statement of what time they said they did these things. And if the recreation time (which is in BST) and their statement of the time (which is not in BST) fall within the clock sync error range, then I consider the recreation to be reasonable.

Another test of the reasonableness of the recreation is when two events get assigned an estimated time in BST values, and we also have someone involved in those events present that as a duration (x minutes). I then compare the estimated interval in BST with their testimony. And if the BST interval falls within the range for the X minute estimate (i.e. is between the min and max value in the table), then the recreation is considered within tolerances.

Finally, George has indicated he did a recreation of the Deimshutz "pony shy until start of search", and that he found this required about 1 minute and 50seconds. I'm using his results for that estimation.

I started with what serves as the initial "core" of the recreation, which starts with Blackwell's arrival, and now with George's information, works back to Deimshutz's arrival. This is what I presented earlier, but I've reduced some of the ranges I presented then to singular points in time by using the midpoints, and using the exact table values rather than being lazy and rounding to nearest minutes. Nothing major changes, just the time details follow a consistent methodology.

All Times Stated are in BST (Blackwell Standard Time);

All Witness Statements thought to be clock based times are viewed as consistent if within a clock-sync error of +-10 minutes.

All Witness Statements with regards do a duration or interval length are viewed as consistent if within the range shown in the Table at the end. If a duration is required to continue the estimated time line, the average duration will be used. If multiple witnesses state different values for the same duration, the average of their adjusted durations will be used. Given the skew associated with the ranges of durations (the max is much further from the average than the minimum) we would expect, overall, for more of the errors to be below the mean than above the mean, but I am unable to estimate what the ratio should be as the exact form of the skewed distribution is unknown and so I am unable to determine how far above the median the mean, average, is likely to be located).

Here is the core of the recreation:
1:16: Dr. Blackwell arrives at scene

1:13:35: Johnson arrives at scene (duration 3-4 minutes later -> 2m 25s, ave of two adj. durations)

1:04:45: PC Lamb Arrives (an adjusted duration to 8m 50s; ave of 10-12m estimate)
NOTE: recreated time between Spooner & PC Lamb’s arrival is 2m 24s. Spooner estimated 5 minutes, which ranges from 1m 38s to 15m 06s, with an average of 3m 37s. Recreation interval well within acceptable limits.

1:03:33: PC Lamb alerted by “runners”

1:02:21: Runners start heading from yard, north towards Commercial Road
Returned from Fairclough
Spooner arrives at Scene

1:00:34: Runners head out south toward Fairclough
NOTE: James Brown testifies that at about 12:45 he sees a man and woman by the Board School on Fairclough, and believes the woman was Stride. He estimates 15 minutes later he hears cries of “Police”, from people moving towards Gove Street (15 min has a range of 6m 13s to 37m 56s, and an average of 12m 33s; given his 12:45 is not in BST, the combination of clock-sync error and estimation error, means his statement is consistent with the recreation times, but it is impossible to tease apart the sources of error in order to translate his 12:45 BST; if we, however, use his duration estimation and work back from our runners, it would suggest he walked past at
12:48:01, and that difference is well within clock sync error ranges).

12:58:24: Diemshutz’s arrival (based upon George’s 1m 50s recreation of pony shy->heading out
NOTE: Diemshutz testifies to arriving at 1 o’clock based on different clock. Recreated BST well within clock sync error range

Building upon the Core:

PC Smith testifies as follows:
“It takes me from 25 minutes to half an hour to go round my beat. I was last in Berner-street about half-past 12 or 12:35. At 1 o’clock I went to Berner-street in my ordinary round. I saw a crowd of people outside the gates of No. 40. I did not hear any cries of “Police.” When I got there I saw Constables 12 H. R and 252 H. I then saw the deceased, and, on looking at her, found she was dead. I then went to the station for the ambulance. Dr. Blackwell’s assistant came just as I was going away.”
So, we know he arrives after PC Lamb (1:04:45 BST), and before Johnson’s arrival (1:13:35 BST). We also know he carries out a few activities at the scene, though from what he describes, those could be done fairly quickly, which could suggest he arrives closer to Johnson than PC Lamb, but not necessarily.

We do not know what clock PC Smith bases his time stamp on. His description of the time of his last patrol as “half-past 12 or 12:35” suggests that is not the Harris clock at the top of Berner Street, as if it were he would not have to state a range. George has interpreted this 5 minutes as indicating the time interval for his patrol of Berner Street. While I can’t rule that out (at 2.5 mph, regulation patrol speed, going up and down Berner’s street would take about 4 minutes, so Geoge’s idea is defendable). However, the phrasing to me does not come across that way as I would think it would have been stated as “I was last in Berner-street between 12:30 and 12:35”, rather than including “about” and using “or”. As such, I’m treating his testimony as indicating he did not use the Harris clock to time-stamp his patrol.

Also, the time 1 o’clock in his testimony is within the statement “At 1 o’clock I went to Berner-street …”, and not “At 1 o’clock I was at Berner-street …”. This testimony is as recorded in The Times, which is what I have access to. There may be conflicting reports in other papers, as is commonly the case. His patrol description starts with “Jower’s-Walk” (sic; Gower’s Walk), which at regulation speed is about 2m 23s away from Berner Street. Therefore, it sounds to me like he updates his time a Gower’s walk, and at 1 he started heading towards Berner’s Street, making his arrival at the top of it around 1:02:23 (his time, not BST), and as he would pick up the pace due to the activity, arrives at the scene at 1:03 (his clock time, not BST). A 25-30 minute typical patrol round would place him there at 12:32:23-12:37:23, which fits well with his stated estimated times. I suggest, therefore, that PC Smith arrives at between roughly 1:05 and 1:06 BST, with the difference between his time and BST reflecting clock-differences (I’ll put it at 1:05:30, midway in that range).

This would place his previous patrol (in BST) entering Berner Street between 12:35 and 12:40, so we’ll estimate that to be 12:37:30 (BST).

Fanny Mortimer:
She testifies she goes out for about 10 minutes after hearing what she takes to be a police man pass by. A 10 minute estimate translates to 7m 56s, but has a range of 3m 48s -27m 00s. If we give PC Smith a bit of time to get out of her view, that would place Fanny Mortimer on her door step between 12:39 and 12:47 (BST), during which Goldstein passes. Also, James Brown doesn't pass until 12:48:01, which is why FM didn't see him. Testimonies are lining up and consistent once all adjusted to BST.

Schwartz Incident:
It is recorded as having occurred at 12:45, but that’s not in BST. We know FM did not see this event, so either it happens before she came out, or after she went back inside. Given her statements tend to suggest there wasn’t a huge gap between what is likely to be PC Smith’s patrol and her going out, I would suggest this event occurs after her goes in. So after 12:47 BST, but it must happen before Deimshutz arrives, at 12:58:24 (BST).

The Schwartz event, as described, would require no more time than it would take for him to walk along Berner’s Street from Commercial to Fairclough (and a bit less, as he indicates he runs the last bit). That distance is 415 feet, and at 3.1 mph, that requires 1m 31s. We have a window of time well beyond 1m 31s between Fanny’s going back inside and Deimshutz’s arrival. It is also within acceptable clock sync error. Given the amount of time required, it seems likely James Brown goes past before the Schwartz incident. That reduces the window to be after 12:48:01 and before 12:58:24 (BST). We still have over 10 minutes within which to fit a 1m 31s event.

So, if B.S. is Stride’s killer, it places her death between 12:48:01 and 12:58:24, BST.

This gives us the what I would suggest is a reasonable start at a recreation of the events with all of the times in BST:

I'm presenting this in reverse chronological order, error of the time estimates should be viewed with increasing caution as we move down the timeline (the previous errors will compound) but so far everything remains within tolerances.

*** recreation of events in BST ****************

1:16: Dr. Blackwell arrives at scene

1:13:35: Johnson arrives at scene
PC Smith Leaves to fetch ambulance

1:05:30: PC Smith Arrives

1:04:45: PC Lamb Arrives

1:03:33: PC Lamb alerted by “runners”

1:02:21: Runners start heading from yard, north towards Commercial Road
Returned from Fairclough
Spooner arrives at Scene

1:00:34: Runners head out south toward Fairclough
This is heard by James Brown, whose testimony places this at 1o'clock (non BST)

12:58:24: Diemshutz’s arrival (based upon George’s 1m 50s recreation of pony shy->heading out

{ Time window for Schwartz Incident }

12:48:01: James Brown sees a man and woman (Stride?) by the board School;

12:47: Fanny Mortimer goes inside (FM estimated about 4 minutes later she heard a pony and cart go by. The recreation has an 11 m 24 gap. The range for 4 minute estimates span from 1m 15s to 12m 31s, so while on the long side, the recreation is still within acceptable limits).

{ Time window for Goldstein to walk down Berner Street }.

12:39: Fanny Mortimer goes outside

12:37:30: PC Smith’s previous patrol of Berner’s Street

*** End of recreation time line ******************

I'm sure not everyone will agree with some of the decisions I've had to make, but that's the nature of these things. There are, I believe, some other witness statements we could try and work with. I expect that sooner or later something will arise that won't fall within the tolerance levels, but that's to be expected.

- Jeff

Here's the table I've used for the duration estimations again.

Mr Hamm goes into full-on ‘Boffin’ mode. An excellent piece of work Jeff. You’ve done the subject a real service by doing this. Some of longer gap estimates can be seen as ‘eyebrow raisers’ but this is purely a case of them being counter intuitive but you’ve got the research and the evidence to back them up. This should now be the framework that we use to view and discuss events in Berner Street. Hats off to you Jeff.