If Schwartz Lied ...

[Herlock Sholmes]

First copy the link in question in to the clipboard (CTRL+C or right-click and COPY), then mark the word you want the link to be under and click the Link button in the top row over the text input box. The Link button has a chain symbol on it (12th button from the right). Paste the URL into the corresponding field and hit Okay.

Thanks for that but I have an iPad. Plus I’m useless with tech.

[bolo]

A question - how do you make a word in the text become a link in red?

First copy the link in question in to the clipboard (CTRL+C or right-click and COPY), then mark the word you want the link to be under and click the Link button in the top row over the text input box. The Link button has a chain symbol on it (12th button from the right). Paste the URL into the corresponding field and hit Okay.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Excellent. Thanks for that.

A question - how do you make a word in the text become a link in red?

[NotBlamedForNothing]

I just got this info via a pm from Gary Barnett over on JTRForums on Tiger Bay.

https://www.jtrforums.com/forum/vict...7492-tiger-bay

Excellent. Thanks for that.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

-- And just the kind of thing I like to see!

I am, though, a bit baffled by all these descriptions of people walking, shouting, following each other, spooning, and standing on doorsteps...

Is there anyone here who'd like to produce a diagram or two to make it clear where the hell all these people are...?!?

Thanks,

Mark D.

Hi Mark.

The full map from the 1894 Ordinance Map of Whitechapel Division page, is a good start.

Also, have a look at Jeff Leahy's pictures, here, here, here, here, here, here, and here.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Does anyone know the extent of Tiger Bay? Is it shown on a map? Was any part of Fairclough or Berner streets regarded as part of Tiger Bay?

I just got this info via a pm from Gary Barnett over on JTRForums on Tiger Bay.

https://www.jtrforums.com/forum/vict...7492-tiger-bay

[JeffHamm]

Hi Herlock,

We can add the Zodiac to that list when he killed taxi driver Paul Stine, Jeff. I’ve always counted the fact that BS Man was seen as a point against him being the ripper but we can’t discount him of course. He might have been the killer but not the ripper of course. It’s worth mentioning Hutchinson too of course. Would the ripper have gone on to kill after someone had stopped down to look him in the eye?

Yes, Zodiac would be another example. And while I tend to think B.S. sudden attack on Stride seems out of character for JtR, it's not definitive or even strong evidence against the possibility, just a valid point of difference. I didn't mention Hutchinson as he is considered contentious and there's a lot of debate around the validity of his account, but if we consider his account based upon an actual sighting (just his description of it a bit dramatic and overly detailed) then yes, another possible sighting that again would suggest being seen did not deter JtR's subsequent actions. Once they commit a murder they'll get out of there of course, although it is not uncommon for them to hang around if the crime is indoors, such as with Mary Kelly. I've seen some suggest that Richard Chase, who was psychotic and delusional, did walk around in blood stained clothes in public after one of his crimes, but I'm not sure if that was reliable. Still, he was suffering from a full on psychotic break so it wouldn't surprise me. Sadly, I don't think that led to his apprehension.

- Jeff

[Herlock Sholmes]

-- And just the kind of thing I like to see!

I am, though, a bit baffled by all these descriptions of people walking, shouting, following each other, spooning, and standing on doorsteps...

Is there anyone here who'd like to produce a diagram or two to make it clear where the hell all these people are...?!?

Thanks,

Mark D.

I’m unsure if one exists Mark. I’m a bit of a caveman when it comes to tech but I’m sure that someone could produce a diagram or 2. We would probably disagree on it though. This map gives you the house numbers though.

http://www.jacktherippermap.info/map.php

[Mark J D]

A scenario...

-- And just the kind of thing I like to see!

I am, though, a bit baffled by all these descriptions of people walking, shouting, following each other, spooning, and standing on doorsteps...

Is there anyone here who'd like to produce a diagram or two to make it clear where the hell all these people are...?!?

Thanks,

Mark D.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Details can be mistaken but it doesn’t mean that the story as a whole was incorrect. I think it’s possible that Schwartz might have misinterpreted the seriousness of the situation though or at least a detail or two.

A scenario…

Pipeman knows Stride and has ‘feelings’ for her and he’s arranged to meet her by the gates. He’s also very jealous but at the same time a coward (as men who are violent to women are)

Stride stands just inside the gates to get out of the wind occasionally stepping out to see if Pipeman is coming. While she’s inside the gates BS Man walks along Berner Street with Schwartz not far behind him. Pipeman turns into Berner Street from Fairclough Street and doesn’t see Stride but sees a bloke walking along but pays no attention to him. He tries to light his pipe but struggles because it’s windy so he stands in the pub doorway at the corner of the street out of the wind. While he’s doing that he hears the ‘incident.’ He’s too much of a coward to get involved though but Schwartz sees him. BS Man wants Stride to go with him and pulls her away from the gates but she resists by pulling. She pulls free of BS and ends up on the ground. She tells him to go away and leave her alone. BS gives up and scarpers in the same initial direction as Schwartz who believes that he’s been followed by Pipeman. BS continues south on Berner Street though and Schwartz, looking back, realises that he’s not being followed. Pipeman walks up to Stride and they stand just inside the gate. The jealous Pipeman says something like “so who was your boyfriend then?” Words are exchanged and he ends up cutting her throat.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

What do you think about the possibility that Schwartz simply misheard BS Man? There are several possibilities of course and they’re all total speculation. One that was mentioned many years ago (I can’t recall who by) was that BS Man knew Stride and actually called out “Lizzie.” Or perhaps the killer recognised Pipeman and he was a Mr “Lindsay.”

Mishearing has to be a possibility, if Schwartz's story is true or half true. Many people seem to have known Stride as Long Liz, so this person must have been well acquainted to have been calling her Lizzie. I take it you're aware that Charles Letchford's sisters were Florence, Maud and Lizzie?

Whatever the case, I think Schwartz really wanted us to believe that the two men were not strangers to each other, and that they spoke to each other in terms of warnings and alerts. Schwartz may have partially deviated from that position temporarily, to keep Abberline happy, but the link between the men is really what he thought to be the case. I think it's a little odd that most people believe Schwartz in general, but doubt or simply do not believe Schwartz on that point.

[Herlock Sholmes]

I think the argument that BSM is not at all like JtR, can be taken a stage further. BSM is not much like any murderer. The clumsy behavior, the on-street assault, the presence of witnesses, and the calling of 'Lipski' so close to Batty street. Can you name another murderer who behaved like this?

What do you think about the possibility that Schwartz simply misheard BS Man? There are several possibilities of course and they’re all total speculation. One that was mentioned many years ago (I can’t recall who by) was that BS Man knew Stride and actually called out “Lizzie.” Or perhaps the killer recognised Pipeman and he was a Mr “Lindsay.”

[Herlock Sholmes]

Schwartz was walking behind B.S., and pipeman appears to have come outside from somewhere, so it is quite possible that B.S. was unaware of the potential witnesses until Schwartz passed and the confrontation already started. And, in some ways, it's very much like Berkowitz's attacks, only Berkowitz used a gun rather than a knife (though his first 2 attacks, one unconfirmed, were with a knife but proved nonfatal). Berkowitz would just shoot people in their cars, then run from the scene. He was spotted running past a someone walking their dog on one occassion, and I think others saw him as well. He used a large calibre handgun, and the sound would draw a lot of attention from potential witnesses. Rader also left witnesses, two kids, at one location. Bundy was seen fleeing the scene at the sorority house in Florida, and at the beach (near the start of his killings), he approached all sorts of woman trying to lure victims.

Basically, while the murder styles were different, there are a fair number of examples (and those are just some of the more the famous ones) where the killer showed a lack of concern about potential witnesses. Berkowitz because he figured noone would get a good look at him, Rader because he got spooked and fled when the phone rang and he forgot about the kids that were locked in the bathroom. A similar forgetting of a victim in the house occurred with Richard Speck, who killed 8 of the 9 nurses he had tied up, basically he lost count. And Bundy didn't think anyone would really remember him since if they refused to help him he just moved on and didn't push it.

So, B.S. pushing Stride about isn't really all that different, particularly as it is possible he was unaware of Schwartz and pipeman, but even if he was, not that big a deal once they fled.

We also have to remember that Long potentially saw JtR with Chapman just shortly before they went into the backyard of Hanbury, and Lawende, Harris, and Levey may have seen JtR with Eddowes, also just before her murder. So, we know JtR wasn't really concerned about possibly being seen with a victim. Is a bit of pushing really going to make a difference in the end, if shortly thereafter she's going to be found dead? To someone who was willing to go on and kill both Chapman and Eddowes, I wouldn't think so, which could be seen as a point in favour of B.S. being JtR. As I say, the Stride case is a collection of things that seem to work both ways.

- Jeff

We can add the Zodiac to that list when he killed taxi driver Paul Stine, Jeff. I’ve always counted the fact that BS Man was seen as a point against him being the ripper but we can’t discount him of course. He might have been the killer but not the ripper of course. It’s worth mentioning Hutchinson too of course. Would the ripper have gone on to kill after someone had stopped down to look him in the eye?

[JeffHamm]

I think the argument that BSM is not at all like JtR, can be taken a stage further. BSM is not much like any murderer. The clumsy behavior, the on-street assault, the presence of witnesses, and the calling of 'Lipski' so close to Batty street. Can you name another murderer who behaved like this?

Schwartz was walking behind B.S., and pipeman appears to have come outside from somewhere, so it is quite possible that B.S. was unaware of the potential witnesses until Schwartz passed and the confrontation already started. And, in some ways, it's very much like Berkowitz's attacks, only Berkowitz used a gun rather than a knife (though his first 2 attacks, one unconfirmed, were with a knife but proved nonfatal). Berkowitz would just shoot people in their cars, then run from the scene. He was spotted running past a someone walking their dog on one occassion, and I think others saw him as well. He used a large calibre handgun, and the sound would draw a lot of attention from potential witnesses. Rader also left witnesses, two kids, at one location. Bundy was seen fleeing the scene at the sorority house in Florida, and at the beach (near the start of his killings), he approached all sorts of woman trying to lure victims.

Basically, while the murder styles were different, there are a fair number of examples (and those are just some of the more the famous ones) where the killer showed a lack of concern about potential witnesses. Berkowitz because he figured noone would get a good look at him, Rader because he got spooked and fled when the phone rang and he forgot about the kids that were locked in the bathroom. A similar forgetting of a victim in the house occurred with Richard Speck, who killed 8 of the 9 nurses he had tied up, basically he lost count. And Bundy didn't think anyone would really remember him since if they refused to help him he just moved on and didn't push it.

So, B.S. pushing Stride about isn't really all that different, particularly as it is possible he was unaware of Schwartz and pipeman, but even if he was, not that big a deal once they fled.

We also have to remember that Long potentially saw JtR with Chapman just shortly before they went into the backyard of Hanbury, and Lawende, Harris, and Levey may have seen JtR with Eddowes, also just before her murder. So, we know JtR wasn't really concerned about possibly being seen with a victim. Is a bit of pushing really going to make a difference in the end, if shortly thereafter she's going to be found dead? To someone who was willing to go on and kill both Chapman and Eddowes, I wouldn't think so, which could be seen as a point in favour of B.S. being JtR. As I say, the Stride case is a collection of things that seem to work both ways.

- Jeff

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Personally, I do tend to agree with you, and think the way in which B.S. seems to suddenly attack Stride seems different from the other crimes.

I think the argument that BSM is not at all like JtR, can be taken a stage further. BSM is not much like any murderer. The clumsy behavior, the on-street assault, the presence of witnesses, and the calling of 'Lipski' so close to Batty street. Can you name another murderer who behaved like this?