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  • GBinOz
    replied
    Originally posted by NotBlamedForNothing View Post

    All the following from the Times.

    Police-constable Henry Lamb, 252 H, deposed as follows: - About 1 o'clock, as near as I can tell, on Sunday morning I was in the Commercial-road, between Christian-street and Batty-street. Two men came running towards me. I went towards them and heard them say, "Come on! There has been another murder." I said, "Where?" As they got to the corner of Berner-street they pointed down the street. Seeing people moving about some distance down Berner-street, I ran down that street followed by Constable 426 H. I went into the gateway of No. 40, Berner-street and saw something dark lying on the right-hand side, close to the gates. I turned my light on and found it was a woman. I saw that her throat was cut, and she appeared to be dead. I at once sent the other constable for the nearest doctor, and I sent a young man that was standing by to the police-station to inform the inspector that a woman was lying in Berner-street with her throat cut, and apparently dead.

    Edward Johnston said:- I live at 100, Commercial-road, and am assistant to Drs. Kay and Blackwell. About five or ten minutes past 1 on Sunday morning, I received a call from constable 436 H.

    Police-constable William Smith, 452 H, said that on Saturday night his beat was past Berner-street. It went from the corner of Jower's-walk, Commercial-road, as far as Christian-street, down Christian-street and Fairclough-street as far as Grove-street, then back along Fairclough-street as far as Backchurch-lane, up there as far as the Commercial-road, taking all the interior streets, including Berner-street and Batley-street [Batty-street]. The witness continued, - It takes me from 25 minutes to half an hour to go round my beat. I was last in Berner-street about half-past 12 or 12:35. At 1 o'clock I went to Berner-street in my ordinary round. I saw a crowd of people outside the gates of No. 40. I did not hear any cries of "Police." When I got there I saw constables 12 H R and 252 H.

    Constable 12 HR said, - At half-past 5 on Sunday morning I washed all traces of blood away. That was after the doctors had left. There were no traces of blood on the wall.

    Johnston's reference to 436H was a mistake (or he was possibly misheard). It was 426H William Ayliffe.
    So we have this arrival order:

    252H: Lamb
    426H: Ayliffe
    12HR: Collins
    452H: Smith

    Whatever the case, I doubt he could not have followed Lamb, just because it was not exactly 1am. A minute or two to one, would be close enough for common sense to prevail.
    Close, but no cigar. The list from https://www.casebook.org/dissertatio...personnel.html

    PC 252H Henry Lamb
    PC 282H Joseph Drage
    PC 452H William Smith
    PC 12HR Albert Collins
    PC 262H Thomas Barrett (PC 226H—Times Aug 10th 1888)

    Whatever the case, I doubt he could not have followed Lamb, just because it was not exactly 1am. A minute or two to one, would be close enough for common sense to prevail. I think that would be a reasonable assessment.

    Cheers, George

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  • GBinOz
    replied
    Originally posted by NotBlamedForNothing View Post

    Bricklayer's Arms Man?

    One would presume, very long.

    On a scale of 0 to 10, where 0.1 is a mouse, and 10 is a screaming match, how loud do suppose Kidney killing her in a fit of drunken jealousy, might have been?
    Schwartz said not very loud. Liz gets up after the not-very-loud screams and walks away, Kidney pulls his knife and grabs her by the scarf ,turning her and pushing her down and cuts her throat just as she hits the ground, thus avoiding the arterial spray on himself and the walls. If she'd had these arguments with Kidney before she wouldn't have been expecting the dramatically different outcome that occured on this occasion.

    Cheers, George

    Leave a comment:


  • NotBlamedForNothing
    replied
    Originally posted by GBinOz View Post

    Hi Frank,

    So Ayliffe was 426 H, and Collins was 436 H and the later had arrived just before Smith?
    All the following from the Times.

    Police-constable Henry Lamb, 252 H, deposed as follows: - About 1 o'clock, as near as I can tell, on Sunday morning I was in the Commercial-road, between Christian-street and Batty-street. Two men came running towards me. I went towards them and heard them say, "Come on! There has been another murder." I said, "Where?" As they got to the corner of Berner-street they pointed down the street. Seeing people moving about some distance down Berner-street, I ran down that street followed by Constable 426 H. I went into the gateway of No. 40, Berner-street and saw something dark lying on the right-hand side, close to the gates. I turned my light on and found it was a woman. I saw that her throat was cut, and she appeared to be dead. I at once sent the other constable for the nearest doctor, and I sent a young man that was standing by to the police-station to inform the inspector that a woman was lying in Berner-street with her throat cut, and apparently dead.

    Edward Johnston said:- I live at 100, Commercial-road, and am assistant to Drs. Kay and Blackwell. About five or ten minutes past 1 on Sunday morning, I received a call from constable 436 H.

    Police-constable William Smith, 452 H, said that on Saturday night his beat was past Berner-street. It went from the corner of Jower's-walk, Commercial-road, as far as Christian-street, down Christian-street and Fairclough-street as far as Grove-street, then back along Fairclough-street as far as Backchurch-lane, up there as far as the Commercial-road, taking all the interior streets, including Berner-street and Batley-street [Batty-street]. The witness continued, - It takes me from 25 minutes to half an hour to go round my beat. I was last in Berner-street about half-past 12 or 12:35. At 1 o'clock I went to Berner-street in my ordinary round. I saw a crowd of people outside the gates of No. 40. I did not hear any cries of "Police." When I got there I saw constables 12 H R and 252 H.

    Constable 12 HR said, - At half-past 5 on Sunday morning I washed all traces of blood away. That was after the doctors had left. There were no traces of blood on the wall.

    Johnston's reference to 436H was a mistake (or he was possibly misheard). It was 426H William Ayliffe.
    So we have this arrival order:

    252H: Lamb
    426H: Ayliffe
    12HR: Collins
    452H: Smith

    Lamb responded to a question from the coroner by giving a time since he passed the Commercial Rd / Berner St corner. My thought was that that may have been the source of time for Ayliffe to leave his shift?

    Cheers, George
    Whatever the case, I doubt he could not have followed Lamb, just because it was not exactly 1am. A minute or two to one, would be close enough for common sense to prevail.

    Leave a comment:


  • GBinOz
    replied
    Originally posted by drstrange169 View Post
    >> I agree, though, that Smith missed seeing any PC running up Berner Street.<<

    Not just Berner, but Commercial as well.

    Which means Smith's time was well out or Ayliffe took another route. My guess that might be Batty Gardens. Or alternatively, Smith came through Batty.
    Having just recently discovered Gavin Bromley's dissertation, I was now thinking that Smith would have been approaching the Commercialst /Berner St corner from the west - Gower's walk. Isn't that what Bromley's beat map would indicate?

    Cheers, George

    Leave a comment:


  • drstrange169
    replied
    >> it's perhaps possible that he was able to see a clock on the St. Augustine's Church (if it had one) on the opposite side of Commercial Road, between Settles Street and Parfett Street. <<

    There may have been a clock in the chemists window. I think this was the chemists shop that was involved in the Lipski case.

    Leave a comment:


  • drstrange169
    replied
    >>... one wonders how the Fixed point PC knew when it was 1 o'clock and time to knock off?<<

    A sergeant normally tells them, but in this case given no sergeant came to the murder site, it might well have been Lamb.
    Last edited by drstrange169; 07-10-2021, 01:26 AM.

    Leave a comment:


  • drstrange169
    replied
    >> I agree, though, that Smith missed seeing any PC running up Berner Street.<<

    Not just Berner, but Commercial as well.

    Which means Smith's time was well out or Ayliffe took another route. My guess that might be Batty Gardens. Or alternatively, Smith came through Batty.
    Last edited by drstrange169; 07-10-2021, 01:25 AM.

    Leave a comment:


  • NotBlamedForNothing
    replied
    Originally posted by FrankO View Post

    Based on the evidence we have, it's also perfectly possible that the constable Brown saw was, in fact, Collins. We just don't know how he was alerted to the murder, just that he'd arrived in the yard before Smith did.
    There are only two ways this could work:

    one: someone had to have seen the search party run along and back Fairclough street, then hung around the Christian street intersection, at least until Collins arrived, who then stands at the corner until said person tells them they are wanted. Collins then runs along to Berner street, apparently without any further verbal indication as to where he should run.

    two: Brown was completely mistaken about Spooner being a constable, and Collins was never at that corner. Why someone would tell Spooner that he was wanted, is unclear. This scenario also leaves unanswered why Brown made no mention of the 'constable' being with a woman.

    It seems very clear to me what the situation was.

    When I heard screams of "Police" and "Murder" I opened the window, but could not see any one and the screams ceased.

    The screams ceased. There was a short period of no noise.

    The cries were those of moving persons, and appeared to be going in the direction of Grove-street. Shortly afterwards I saw a policeman standing at the corner of Christian-street. I heard a man opposite call out to the constable that he was wanted. I then saw the policeman run along to Berner-street.

    Spooner stood at the same intersection, and his story is almost identical...

    After talking for about 25 minutes I saw two Jews come running along and shouting out "Murder" and "Police." They then ran as far as Grove-street and turned back. I stopped them and asked what was the matter. They replied, "A woman has been murdered." I then went round with them to Berner-street, and into Dutfield's yard, adjoining No. 40, Berner-street.

    Spooner lived at 26 Fairclough street. What was the point of him and his alleged lady friend walking almost to his place, only to stand talking at the next corner, for nearly half an hour?

    Then there is the whistle issue.

    As I was going to Berner-street I did not meet any one except Mr. Harris, who came out of his house in Tiger Bay. Mr. Harris told me he had heard the policeman's whistle blowing.

    So the only person Spooner met on his way to Berner street, just happened to be someone he knew, who had come out of his house after hearing a police whistle. Brown seems to have perceived Spooner as being a policeman. Who blew the whistle?

    Leave a comment:


  • NotBlamedForNothing
    replied
    Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post

    On the suggestion that PC Smith arrived at the yard at 1.00 or before….
    Can you quote PC Smith saying he arrived at the yard at or before 1am? Can you quote a poster saying this? Or has this suggestion been 'assigned' to certain posters, by yourself?

    We can say with a very high level of confidence that Johnston arrived at the yard at 1.12/1.13

    We can also have a high level of confidence of the time when Smith went to fetch an ambulance…..1.12/1.13
    Only if we have a high level of confidence in the accuracy of Blackwell's pocket watch.

    So if PC Smith arrived at the yard at 1.00, to find a dead body and 2 other Police Officers, can we really think it at all likely that he stood around scratching his backside and discussing the weather for 12 or 13 minutes before going for an ambulance? Three police officers took 12 or 13 minutes to come to the decision that an ambulance would be needed?
    The reason for Smith remaining at the yard for some time, after he identified the victim as the woman he had seen previously, has been put in front of you several times before.

    Leave a comment:


  • NotBlamedForNothing
    replied
    Originally posted by GBinOz View Post
    While reviewing I've come across some curiosities:

    Liz was thought to have taken up with the brother of her former employer, who probably could be thought of as a toff.
    Bricklayer's Arms Man?

    She had some time before been involved with George Morris, the night watchman at Kearley and Tonge's and former police officer. Given the population of the area at that time, what are the odds of Morris having involvement with two of the Whitechapel murder victims?
    One would presume, very long.

    Michael Kidney turned up at Leman street to loudly protest Liz's death before her body had been identified. Since they had been parted for five days and he didn't know if or when she might return, how did he deduce that she was the Berner St victim? I can envisage a scenario we he somehow found out she was out with someone else, and where they might be, found her in the yard waiting for her new beau to complete whatever he was doing in the yard, and killed her in a fit of drunken jealousy. The suspicious man seen after the murder in Church Lane would have been on a direct backstreet route to 38 Dorset St, where Kidney lived at the time.

    Cheers, George
    On a scale of 0 to 10, where 0.1 is a mouse, and 10 is a screaming match, how loud do suppose Kidney killing her in a fit of drunken jealousy, might have been?

    Leave a comment:


  • NotBlamedForNothing
    replied
    Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post
    How long would it have taken Collins to have run from the yard to 1.00 Commercial Road? A minute or so? Johnston said that he’d arrived at his door between 1.05 and 1.10. We don’t know what time Collins got to the yard originally though so why couldn’t Smith and Collins have arrived seconds apart but from different directions? So for example, Lamb/Ayliffe 1.05, Smith under a minute later at 1.06. Then a few seconds after Smith had arrived Collins arrived and was sent for the doctor, arriving there at around 1.08?
    It was Ayliffe that ran to the doctors, of course - that was my mistake that Frank corrected me on in a later post.
    The reason Smith cannot arrive one minute after Lamb, is given by Smith...

    I was not called. I saw a crowd outside the gates of No. 40, Berner-street. I heard no cries of "Police."

    Smith was out hearing range of Lamb's whistle. Smith must have arrived at least 3 minutes after Lamb and Ayliffe. Possibly 4 and conceivably 5. So if Lamb arrived at 1:05, then Smith arrived at about 1:09.

    By the way, Collins arrived before Smith, not after.

    I shouldn’t have used the word ‘average.’ I should have said ‘range.’ My whole point though is that if the route usually took 25-30 minutes why do you consider it impossible that it might have taken 31 or even 32 minutes.
    Smith gave no indication that his final yard to yard round took longer than normal...

    I was in Berner-street about half-past twelve or twenty-five minutes to one o'clock, and having gone round my beat, was at the Commercial-road corner of Berner-street again at one o'clock.

    Its not a fudge it’s a reasonable, unbiased acceptance that we cannot rigidly adhere to timings. Do we really have to keep explaining this very basic principle. The fudge is your unwillingness to accept what everyone knows to have been true. ‘Most likely…’ ‘more likely’ ‘probably.’
    Actually it is a fudge. For you to suppose that Smith was last on Berner street at 12:30 or 12:35, returning at about 1:09 gives him a beat of at least 34 minutes. So this is clearly wrong. So your simplest choice is to have Smith last on Berner street at about 12:40, or have Smith arriving at the yard no later than 1:05, with Lamb arriving 3 to 5 minutes before that.

    Who had undoubtedly just returned from a Fancy Dress Party where he’d gone as a Police Officer. Ok.
    That was my joke, but okay.

    The presence or otherwise of Israel Schwartz is of no consequence to me. A fair, reasonable appraisal of the case taking in reasonable considerations is important however.
    Do not give up on Israel Schwartz or you may find yourself cast into the Ripperological Wilderness.

    Leave a comment:


  • GBinOz
    replied
    Originally posted by FrankO View Post
    Thanks for the additional information, Mike!

    Assuming that Ayliffe wasn't allowed to leave his post until he was releaved/told his shift was over, I think his sergeant had already round him up. But maybe that's a wrong assumption on my part!

    Cheers,
    Frank
    Hi Frank,

    So Ayliffe was 426 H, and Collins was 436 H and the later had arrived just before Smith?

    Lamb responded to a question from the coroner by giving a time since he passed the Commercial Rd / Berner St corner. My thought was that that may have been the source of time for Ayliffe to leave his shift?

    Cheers, George

    Leave a comment:


  • FrankO
    replied
    Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post

    You would have missed this Frank but I got a question to Neil Bell via Jon Menges and Neil said that the sergeant who took his officers out on duty would have rounded up the fixed point men (although occasionally another officer was delegated to do the rounding up) although I think Neil said that they tried where possible to locate them near to a clock but this wasn’t always possible.
    Thanks for the additional information, Mike!

    So Ayliffe could easily have still been in situ after 1.00 waiting for his sergeant to arrive.
    Assuming that Ayliffe wasn't allowed to leave his post until he was releaved/told his shift was over, I think his sergeant had already round him up. But maybe that's a wrong assumption on my part!

    Cheers,
    Frank

    Leave a comment:


  • Herlock Sholmes
    replied
    . How PC 426 H (Ayliffe) would have known the time, is unknown to us, but it's perhaps possible that he was able to see a clock on the St. Augustine's Church (if it had one) on the opposite side of Commercial Road, between Settles Street and Parfett Street. That's just something that I think is a possibility, having read somewhere that fixed point duties were often positioned close to some clock. Another possibility is that his sergeant informed him some short while before that his shift would end in about x (5, 10, 15) minutes.
    You would have missed this Frank but I got a question to Neil Bell via Jon Menges and Neil said that the sergeant who took his officers out on duty would have rounded up the fixed point men (although occasionally another officer was delegated to do the rounding up) although I think Neil said that they tried where possible to locate them near to a clock but this wasn’t always possible. So Ayliffe could easily have still been in situ after 1.00 waiting for his sergeant to arrive.

    Leave a comment:


  • FrankO
    replied
    Originally posted by GBinOz View Post
    I've just re-read two inquest reports and they say that Lamb identified the Constable that ran to the yard with him as 436 H. Isn't this the constable that Lamb sent for the doctor? There is no mention of Ayliffe 426 H arriving in time to be sent for the doctor. Was Collins number 436 H?
    The name Ayliffe was uncovered by respected fellow-poster "Monty", who in real life is called Neil Bell and with his knowledge of police procedures of the day wrote, among others, the book "Capturing Jack the Ripper: In the Boots of a Bobby in Victorian London". So, there's no mention of Ayliffe because his name wasn't mentioned in the evidence of the day, he was only mentioned as PC 426 H and in some places - but mistakenly, I think - as 436 H. And, yes, Lamb sent PC 426 H to fetch the doctor.

    Cheers,
    Frank


    Last edited by FrankO; 07-09-2021, 03:03 PM.

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