If Schwartz Lied ...

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Hi Andrew,

There you go again, finding mysteries in unthought of places. Jon has answered your question about Lamb. Where did you get the idea that Harris accompanied deimshitz and Spooner to the yard?

Cheers, George

George,
do you not think it more than a coincidence that of all the people who could have come out of their homes after hearing a police whistle, who Spooner could potentially have run into on his way to the yard, the only person was someone he seems to have known?

Harris wasn't in his home when the whistle was blown, he was outside. There were three Harris's known to have been members of the WVC. Spooner's Harris was one of them. He may well have been the early whistle blower, and of course he went to the yard.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

PC Lamb gave his evidence directly prior to Spooner, so at the very least Spooner learned the PC's name minutes before he took the stand himself.

Yeah, I guess it's possible they met in the waiting room. Spooner did not meet Harris at the inquest, so he must have already known him, unless they got talking together in the yard.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Sadly, we can never know the answer to such questions as the time is long since passed since we can make such direct inquiries as why people didn't do things we come up with, or how they found out some bit of information. I could see Lamb stating his name, as you suggest, or I could see Spooner learning it at some other time, etc. Who knows? As for Baxter, I think he had more important issues on his mind than worrying about lack of chivalry. Perhaps she did come to the scene, and while we don't have that information, Baxter did, but as she could offer no more information than Spooner, wasn't of interest to Baxter. Just a couple of thoughts that popped into my head now, and not suggesting they're anything but one of an infinite number of possible lines of speculation one could follow.

Baxter may have had more important issues to be concerned with, than Spooner's apparent lack of chivalry, but what about Spooner himself? Why did he leave us (and the jury?) wondering what happened to the lady friend, or why she didn't rate a mention after he hastened to Berner street?

Spooner gave the impression that he was allowed to leave very early - before everyone else had been searched and questioned.

When Police-constable Lamb came I helped him to close the gates of the yard, and I left through the club.

Reid seems to immediately sense a problem, and jumps in...

Inspector Reid: I believe that was after you had given your name and address to the police? - Yes.

And had been searched? - Yes.

And examined by Dr. Phillips? - Yes.

Imagine how it would have looked if Reid had not done so. So I think there is a case that Spooner was aloud to leave early, and I doubt this privilege would have been extended to his lady friend, had she been there.

[GBinOz]

Hi George.

Sorry to pick up on this, pedantic details like the one above tend to tweak my interest.

It's not like Mike to make a definitive statement like that without some justification, though I wonder exactly how that could work.
H Division had 24 Fixed Point duties (two more lasted until 7:00 am), they range from the City border in the west to Wapping in the East, from Bethnal Green in the North down to the Docks. Unless there were at least 24 Sergeants on night duty how could they all be relieved at 1:00 am?

I've seen a list of rank & file for H Div. somewhere, I just can't recall at the moment how many Sergeants they had.

Hi Jon,

The list you are thinking of may be here:-

https://www.casebook.org/dissertations/h-division-personnel.html

When I proposed that Lamb may have provided a time for Ayliffe to use to determine when he could be released, Herlock admonished me on the basis that Neil Bell had informed him that it was the duty the supervising sergeant to release fixed point officers, and that he had told me that on a previous ocassion. Both Herlock and I have question post's on "Ask Monty" so I assumed that Neil must have answered Herlock by PM. I am awaiting a reply from Neil to my post.

It is curious that searching the personnel list I can't find any record of Ayliffe. That name was provided by FrankO as coming from Neil. But the list acknowledges that is by no means exhaustive, so that would be the explanation.

Cheers, George

[GBinOz]

Hi Andrew,

There you go again, finding mysteries in unthought of places. Jon has answered your question about Lamb. Where did you get the idea that Harris accompanied deimshitz and Spooner to the yard?

Cheers, George

[Wickerman]

.... Also, how would Spooner have learnt that the PC's name was Lamb? Did Lamb announce his name to everyone in the yard, or did Spooner already know?

PC Lamb gave his evidence directly prior to Spooner, so at the very least Spooner learned the PC's name minutes before he took the stand himself.

[JeffHamm]

Spooner: When Police-constable Lamb came I helped him to close the gates of the yard, and I left through the club.

Why didn't Baxter ask the obvious question...

Did you leave with your lady friend?

Was it because Baxter already knew the answer - that there was no lady friend with him? Also, how would Spooner have learnt that the PC's name was Lamb? Did Lamb announce his name to everyone in the yard, or did Spooner already know?

Sadly, we can never know the answer to such questions as the time is long since passed since we can make such direct inquiries as why people didn't do things we come up with, or how they found out some bit of information. I could see Lamb stating his name, as you suggest, or I could see Spooner learning it at some other time, etc. Who knows? As for Baxter, I think he had more important issues on his mind than worrying about lack of chivalry. Perhaps she did come to the scene, and while we don't have that information, Baxter did, but as she could offer no more information than Spooner, wasn't of interest to Baxter. Just a couple of thoughts that popped into my head now, and not suggesting they're anything but one of an infinite number of possible lines of speculation one could follow.

The presence of Mr Harris in the yard - possibly with a lantern, which would explain Spooner's amazing ability to make out that the shape on the ground was a woman, before a match had been struck - probably explains Diemschitz' confusion as to when the police arrived. Louis thought he arrived back (with Spooner) at the same time as the police arrived with Eagle, but was he confusing the arrival of the public policemen, with the private ones?

Maybe, that could make sense of things. We see PC Lamb mistaking Johnson for Blackwell after all. I rather suspect there was a great deal of confusion going on at the time, so hardly surprising the various statements are a bit of a jumble. It probably was a jumble of activity.

- Jeff

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Spooner: When Police-constable Lamb came I helped him to close the gates of the yard, and I left through the club.

Why didn't Baxter ask the obvious question...

Did you leave with your lady friend?

Was it because Baxter already knew the answer - that there was no lady friend with him? Also, how would Spooner have learnt that the PC's name was Lamb? Did Lamb announce his name to everyone in the yard, or did Spooner already know?

The presence of Mr Harris in the yard - possibly with a lantern, which would explain Spooner's amazing ability to make out that the shape on the ground was a woman, before a match had been struck - probably explains Diemschitz' confusion as to when the police arrived. Louis thought he arrived back (with Spooner) at the same time as the police arrived with Eagle, but was he confusing the arrival of the public policemen, with the private ones?

[JeffHamm]

Hi Jeff.

Perhaps you have come across some detail I missed.
It was my understanding that Spooner was picked up by Diemschitz & Koz. on their way back from the Grove St. end of Fairclough St.
Spooner was with his lady friend at the bottom end of Christian St. at Fairclough.
Spooner joined Diem & Koz. as they returned to Dutfields Yard, no mention of whether his lady tagged along behind.
Would you leave your girlfriend on those backstreets after an alarm has been raised of a murder?, I know I wouldn't, yet no mention of her joining Spooner.

So, as to your thoughts, how do we place Spooner with his lady standing 'smooching' on the corner by the Board School (at Fairclough & Berner) when his own words suggest he came passed that point with two other men without stopping?

Hi Wickerman,

I'm wondering if between the time the Standing Couple are last spotted at Fairclough and Berner, which seems to be by James Brown if he's misidentified the lady as Stride, and the search they moved up Fairclough towards Grove as far as Christian St. So, when the search starts 12-15 minutes after Brown sees them, they are now at F&C rather than F&B. No mention of is made of a couple being at F&B at the time of the search, so it appears they have left by then, but Fanny suggests she spoke to them at the crime scene, so they come back and probably weren't far away. I'm just wondering if F&C might be where they went, and while she may not have run with the men, she could have come along just behind them. We know more people showed up than get mentioned (i.e. nobody mentions Fanny arriving other than she herself as far as I'm aware).

I recognize Spooner's statements say he was at F&C the entire time, but it's not a great distance, and strolling about is not really unusual and could easily get omitted in his description, particularly if they moved just after Brown passes, so were at F&C for 12ish minutes. But the F&B standing couple seem to be missing at the time of the search, and appear to be there later, and low and behold, just up the street at F&C, we have a couple, who at least one of shows up at the crime scene, and the other we don't know, but as you say, would she really be left abandoned like that, or would she have been coming up behind the men and just not mentioned because, well, it's 1888.

It's entirely speculative, I know, but I don't think it's out of the range of reasonable possibilities. But, that doesn't mean I expect it to be universally accepted, nor even that I universally accept it myself. Just one of those things that occurred to me, but really, can probably never be resolved so could fall either way.

- Jeff

[Wickerman]

Hi Wickerman,

The Standing Sweethearts appear to be a good candidate for Mrs.Mortimer's couple, and could also be the couple that James Brown passes, and his identification that it was Stride who he saw is erroneous. Part of me is toying with the idea that the Standing Sweethearts are Spooner and his lady friend, and that they eventually move down Fairclough to where they eventually meet up with the searchers as they run past after the discovery. We know the searches began around 1, and there is no mention of a couple being at the corner of Berner and Fairclough at that time, but Spooner and his lady friend are just down the road.

- Jeff

Hi Jeff.

Perhaps you have come across some detail I missed.
It was my understanding that Spooner was picked up by Diemschitz & Koz. on their way back from the Grove St. end of Fairclough St.
Spooner was with his lady friend at the bottom end of Christian St. at Fairclough.
Spooner joined Diem & Koz. as they returned to Dutfields Yard, no mention of whether his lady tagged along behind.
Would you leave your girlfriend on those backstreets after an alarm has been raised of a murder?, I know I wouldn't, yet no mention of her joining Spooner.

So, as to your thoughts, how do we place Spooner with his lady standing 'smooching' on the corner by the Board School (at Fairclough & Berner) when his own words suggest he came passed that point with two other men without stopping?

[JeffHamm]

Hi Wickerman,

Trivial point, there appears to have been two "sweetheart" couples.

I had an exchange with Tom some years ago and if I recall correctly he dismissed the couple by the Board School as he found an interview where she said she had been in the street between 12:00-12:30, so contrary to Mortimer, they simply had not been there at the time she claimed.

I think Tom assumed the term "sweetheart" used in several press reports referred to the same couple, it likely did not.

The woman who spoke to the Echo in this report tells a different story to that spoken by Mortimer.

"From twelve o'clock till half-past a young girl who lives in the street walked up and down, and within twenty yards of where the body was found, with her sweetheart.
"We heard nothing whatever," she told a reporter this morning. "I passed the gate of the yard a few minutes before twelve o'clock alone. The doors were open, and, so far as I could tell, there was nothing inside then." "I met my young man (she proceeded) at the top of the street, and then we went for a short walk along the Commercial-road and back again, and down Berner-street. No one passed us then, but just before we said "Good night" a man came along the Commercial-road; and went in the direction of Aldgate."

Whereas Mrs Mortimer claimed:
"A young man and his sweetheart were standing at the corner of the street, about 20 yards away, before and after the time the woman must have been murdered, but they told me they did not hear a sound."

And again...
"When the alarm of murder was raised a young girl had been standing in a bisecting thoroughfare not fifty yards from the spot where the body was found. She had, she said, been standing there for about twenty-minutes, talking with her sweetheart, but neither of them heard any unusual noises".

The walking Sweethearts were gone from Berner St. before Mortimer came out of the house, whereas the standing Sweethearts were still at the corner around 1:00 am according to Mortimer. Hence, it looks like we have two different "Sweetheart" couples.

That's interesting. The walking sweethearts appear to vacate the area well before the critical times, but it is interesting to know about general levels of activity in the area. But from what you've presented, I agree it looks like two different couples.

The Standing Sweethearts appear to be a good candidate for Mrs.Mortimer's couple, and could also be the couple that James Brown passes, and his identification that it was Stride who he saw is erroneous. Part of me is toying with the idea that the Standing Sweethearts are Spooner and his lady friend, and that they eventually move down Fairclough to where they eventually meet up with the searchers as they run past after the discovery. We know the searches began around 1, and there is no mention of a couple being at the corner of Berner and Fairclough at that time, but Spooner and his lady friend are just down the road.

Given these are press reports, and it is the young lady who is being spoken to and she seems reluctant to divulge her name or the name of her "young man", the press may never have twigged to the fact that the young man was Spooner, who played a bit more of a role than just being in the area at the time. If she is reluctant to have her name drawn into things, she might not mention that they moved up the street as that would identify Spooner as the young man (or be more likely to result in that), which in turn might reveal her identity. Why she might want to keep her name out of the paper cannot be worked out, but I'm sure one could dream up lots of reasons why that might be.

I'm not suggesting the above as if it should be viewed as "proven", but it does seem an interesting possibility to consider, at least based upon things so far. I may be overlooking something and seeing things through a bias created by my own ponderings, but that's what happens when trying to make sense of things. Find something that makes sense when there's little data, and you can end up stuffing conflicting data into the "I've made sense of it bin", never to be seen again.

- Jeff

[Wickerman]

...Frank's timeline is in an almost permanent tab on my computer. His point "19, P.C. Lamb arrives, followed by PC 426 H", indicates to me that Lamb had told PC 426 H (Ayliffe) that he had a minute or two before his release time of one o'clock. Herlock disagrees with me here insisting that the fixed point PC had to be released by the supervising Sergeant, but I would think that if that Sergeant were there to release him the Sergeant would have come to the yard as well when th alarm was raised.

Hi George.

Sorry to pick up on this, pedantic details like the one above tend to tweak my interest.

It's not like Mike to make a definitive statement like that without some justification, though I wonder exactly how that could work.
H Division had 24 Fixed Point duties (two more lasted until 7:00 am), they range from the City border in the west to Wapping in the East, from Bethnal Green in the North down to the Docks. Unless there were at least 24 Sergeants on night duty how could they all be relieved at 1:00 am?

I've seen a list of rank & file for H Div. somewhere, I just can't recall at the moment how many Sergeants they had.

[Wickerman]

Trivial point, there appears to have been two "sweetheart" couples.

I had an exchange with Tom some years ago and if I recall correctly he dismissed the couple by the Board School as he found an interview where she said she had been in the street between 12:00-12:30, so contrary to Mortimer, they simply had not been there at the time she claimed.

I think Tom assumed the term "sweetheart" used in several press reports referred to the same couple, it likely did not.

The woman who spoke to the Echo in this report tells a different story to that spoken by Mortimer.

"From twelve o'clock till half-past a young girl who lives in the street walked up and down, and within twenty yards of where the body was found, with her sweetheart.
"We heard nothing whatever," she told a reporter this morning. "I passed the gate of the yard a few minutes before twelve o'clock alone. The doors were open, and, so far as I could tell, there was nothing inside then." "I met my young man (she proceeded) at the top of the street, and then we went for a short walk along the Commercial-road and back again, and down Berner-street. No one passed us then, but just before we said "Good night" a man came along the Commercial-road; and went in the direction of Aldgate."

Whereas Mrs Mortimer claimed:
"A young man and his sweetheart were standing at the corner of the street, about 20 yards away, before and after the time the woman must have been murdered, but they told me they did not hear a sound."

And again...
"When the alarm of murder was raised a young girl had been standing in a bisecting thoroughfare not fifty yards from the spot where the body was found. She had, she said, been standing there for about twenty-minutes, talking with her sweetheart, but neither of them heard any unusual noises".

The walking Sweethearts were gone from Berner St. before Mortimer came out of the house, whereas the standing Sweethearts were still at the corner around 1:00 am according to Mortimer. Hence, it looks like we have two different "Sweetheart" couples.

[JeffHamm]

Hi Wickerman,

Hi Jeff.

Agreed, and that's the significant point to take away from your analysis. There is nothing in general wrong with the story handed down to us in the variety of sources, short of having an actual script of events.
I would like to refer to your analysis in future debates if that's ok, it was something I had planned to do myself someday, you've saved me the trouble. Naturally, I would inject Packer's experience into the timeline as I think the man he described was the same as Parcel-man, and the man at the Bricklayer's Arms.

Feel free to refer to it if you think it's worth a mention. I've redone the whole procedure again, remeasuring the distances, redoing the estimations, and so forth, but this time set Dr. Blackwell's arrival time to 1:16:30 (since we don't know where in the 16th minute his clock was, I place it at the 1/2 way mark - just a pedantic touch up), and such, and come to the same thing. Not exactly the same times to the second shifted by 30, because of course, each time you measure the distances you'll get a slightly different value. I wanted to see how variable things might be due to that part of the analysis. It seems pretty stable.

And yes, feel free to slot in Packer if you have an idea where his encounter should occur. I've limited my go to those I felt I had enough information to either just link things by event description, or where any judgements on my part were in the order of a couple minutes.

FYI, I've sent in that 2nd version as a submission for the dissertation section, and if they're still adding to those, it may end up there.

- Jeff

[Wickerman]

Anyway, I've done the best I can to describe how I built the timeline, and where I had to make one or two judgement calls. In part because then others could, if they wish, see if other statements can be fitted to that structure by following the same approach (to keep things consistent). We can never know exactly what happened, but from what I see, so far none of the statements I've included show any signs of gross inaccuracy, or deception. Just, clock-sync errors, and the typical range expected from human error.

Hi Jeff.

Agreed, and that's the significant point to take away from your analysis. There is nothing in general wrong with the story handed down to us in the variety of sources, short of having an actual script of events.
I would like to refer to your analysis in future debates if that's ok, it was something I had planned to do myself someday, you've saved me the trouble. Naturally, I would inject Packer's experience into the timeline as I think the man he described was the same as Parcel-man, and the man at the Bricklayer's Arms.