If Schwartz Lied ...

[JeffHamm]

Negative. I only have a theory.

Ooops! I think I had the same idea though, but then, my view tends to be that anyone the press interviewed was there at some point - which is why the press interviewed them. But, that's an assumption, not a fact, so ...

- Jeff

[NotBlamedForNothing]

But first, can you provide a reference to show that Harris was at the yard (no conjecture please)?

Cheers, George

Negative. I only have a theory.

[GBinOz]

Reid: A thorough search was made by the police of the yard and the houses in it, but no trace could be found of any person who might have committed the murder. As soon as the search was over the whole of the persons who had come into the yard and the members of the club were interrogated, their names and addresses taken, their pockets searched by the police, and their clothes and hands examined by the doctors. The people were twenty-eight in number. Each was dealt with separately, and they properly accounted for themselves.

Perhaps we need a new thread for debating Reid's list of 28?

But first, can you provide a reference to show that Harris was at the yard (no conjecture please)?

Cheers, George

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Reid: A thorough search was made by the police of the yard and the houses in it, but no trace could be found of any person who might have committed the murder. As soon as the search was over the whole of the persons who had come into the yard and the members of the club were interrogated, their names and addresses taken, their pockets searched by the police, and their clothes and hands examined by the doctors. The people were twenty-eight in number. Each was dealt with separately, and they properly accounted for themselves.

Perhaps we need a new thread for debating Reid's list of 28?

[JeffHamm]

Hi Jeff,

Is there a reference to Harris being at the Yard? If so, I owe Andrew an apology.

Cheers, George

I thought there was? Perhaps I'm mis-remembering something else? I don't have all the news reports at my fingertips, so it's quite possible I've made an error simply because it sounded familiar. However, while I don't always agree with Andrew's interpretation (hardly surprising, put 2 of us from these boards in the same room and 3 opinions are likely to emerge after all), I do trust that if he's says there is a news report that there is one. He's clearly scoured those pretty thoroughly, and often brings up some pretty obscure ones. But I agree, best for us all to see the the same data before we start venturing on interpreting it.

It could be I took the quote he includes above as indicating Harris went to check things out though.

- Jeff

[NotBlamedForNothing]

As Lamb's testimony had preceded Spooner's, Baxter knows Lamb was the first PC on the scene, and that Lamb blew his whistle. So what did Baxter make of this...?

I did not meet any one as I was hastening to Berner-street except Mr. Harris, who was coming out of his house in Tiger Bay, having heard the police whistle.

Baxter seems to have let this apparent contradiction go unquestioned. Did he know Spooner and Harris were WVC? Just as there appears to have been knowledge of the Schwartz account at the inquest, there appears to be other 'background' knowledge that is never made explicit. Yet even if Baxter had missed the whistle anomaly, how could Spooner have done the same? Why didn't it occur to Spooner to wonder how Harris could have heard a police whistle prior to his arrival at the yard, when he has already stated that Lamb arrived about 5 minutes after he did? The blast of Lamb's whistle must have been very loud in his ear, so he cannot have failed to wonder what Harris was talking about.

[GBinOz]

We know Harris and Spooner are both at the scene, and that over the course of the evening the police show up and hold everyone there.
- Jeff

Hi Jeff,

Is there a reference to Harris being at the Yard? If so, I owe Andrew an apology.

Cheers, George

[JeffHamm]

We know Harris and Spooner are both at the scene, and that over the course of the evening the police show up and hold everyone there. We know there is a lot of activity, people caught up in a situation. People meet, and so without knowing each other prior, still can learn names. Without the specifics being available to us, all we know is that the activity at the scene leaves open the very real possibility that they learn each other's names there. We don't have all the details, so we don't know, but we can't rule out the simple, which means the complex is not necessary. Keep it as simple as you can, and find the bits that still don't fit. Those are the mysteries. The others are will-o-the-wisps, and they lead you astray, down rabbit holes from which you may never return. Sure, we may not get it all, but we can get close, and after all this time, that might be the best we can hope for. If new information emerges, be prepared to change your mind. But so far, Frank O, George, and myself, have put together timelines that produce the same overall story. The missing details may be lost to us, but I think three independent looks, that all result in the same thing, is worthy of consideration that there are no hidden agendas among the characters, and so simple, albeit boring, explanatíons, are really what we should be considering first. But I'm a fan of the dull and mundane.

- Jeff

[GBinOz]

Hi George.

I can't see this happening on Spooner's short journey to the yard, although if they did meet on the way, then Harris was between Spooner at the intersection of F&C, and the yard. In that case Harris would have at least as much idea as to what was going on, as Spooner.
We all have to make assessments on what we believe, or not.

How did Spooner immediately recognize there was on woman on the ground, even before a match was struck, whereas Lamb could only see a dark object? I think Mr Harris had a lantern. So Mr Harris could have been WVC. Spooner knows Harris's name, and there is independent evidence that Spooner was WVC. Therefore it can be inferred that these two knew each other. Same but different for Herschburg and Koster.
Ever heard of the term " Bulls**t Artist"? Perhaps Spooner considered himself a legend in his own mind? There is zero evidence of Harris at the yard, with or without a lantern.

No, I mean the unnamed men, who sound exactly like Spooner, and how I would expect Mr Harris to have behaved. You've lost me here... English subtitles please.

I'm not buying that Kozebrodski was known as Mr Isaacs. I think IK was 18 in 1888. Perhaps a bit young to be on the committee? Jacobs, maybe. I think it naive to consider that old men didn't use young men to do their bidding. Look at WW1.

Spooner and Herschburg would not be on the committee, either. The committee men participated in the patrols, but not all patrolmen were committee members. For example...

Inexperienced in practical police duty, the committee decided to call in professional assistance rather than rely solely upon their own resources. For this purpose they engaged the services of two private detectives - men who, though unattached to either metropolitan or city police forces, hold themselves out as experts in the unravelling of mysteries. At the disposal of these executive officers are placed about a dozen stalwart men possessing an intimate acquaintance with the highways and by-ways of Whitechapel. Only those have been selected who are "physically and morally" equal to the task they may any night be called upon to perform. As they were previously numbered among the unemployed, it became unnecessary to fix a high scale of remuneration.

I can't see why Harris would have hung around where he'd met Spooner. What would be the point? It's difficult to tell what Brown was seeing, and I guess it could have been Collins at a later point, but why was Collins standing, and not moving toward the direction of the whistle?
Once again I commend your research. I wasn't there but I can speculate than Collins heard the whistle, the same as Harris, and arrived to find now one there, and stood wondering what to do when Harris informed him of the situation.

Which I don't believe was true. I think he was out on the street. By the way, no man by the name of Harris has been found living in Brunswick street, at around that time.

It was a deposition under oath by Spooner. It is your choice whether to believe it or not.

Cheers, George

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Hi George.

I'm not convinced from Times report (below)............Hello, my name's Harris. What's happening.

I can't see this happening on Spooner's short journey to the yard, although if they did meet on the way, then Harris was between Spooner at the intersection of F&C, and the yard. In that case Harris would have at least as much idea as to what was going on, as Spooner.

I don't think there is evidence that either knew Spooner.

How did Spooner immediately recognize there was on woman on the ground, even before a match was struck, whereas Lamb could only see a dark object? I think Mr Harris had a lantern. So Mr Harris could have been WVC. Spooner knows Harris's name, and there is independent evidence that Spooner was WVC. Therefore it can be inferred that these two knew each other. Same but different for Herschburg and Koster.

Do you mean the men you named? According to list below Harris, Isaacs(Koze) and Jacobs were WVC. I don't see Spooner or Herschburg on the list. I think that Harris stayed aound his home and was the person seen by Brown directing Collins to the yard. JMO.

No, I mean the unnamed men, who sound exactly like Spooner, and how I would expect Mr Harris to have behaved.

I'm not buying that Kozebrodski was known as Mr Isaacs. I think IK was 18 in 1888. Perhaps a bit young to be on the committee? Jacobs, maybe.

Spooner and Herschburg would not be on the committee, either. The committee men participated in the patrols, but not all patrolmen were committee members. For example...

Inexperienced in practical police duty, the committee decided to call in professional assistance rather than rely solely upon their own resources. For this purpose they engaged the services of two private detectives - men who, though unattached to either metropolitan or city police forces, hold themselves out as experts in the unravelling of mysteries. At the disposal of these executive officers are placed about a dozen stalwart men possessing an intimate acquaintance with the highways and by-ways of Whitechapel. Only those have been selected who are "physically and morally" equal to the task they may any night be called upon to perform. As they were previously numbered among the unemployed, it became unnecessary to fix a high scale of remuneration.

I can't see why Harris would have hung around where he'd met Spooner. What would be the point? It's difficult to tell what Brown was seeing, and I guess it could have been Collins at a later point, but why was Collins standing, and not moving toward the direction of the whistle?

Hi Andrew,

Times 3 Oct 1888:- By the jury. - As I was going to Berner-street I did not meet any one except Mr. Harris, who came out of his house in Tiger Bay (Brunswick-street). Mr. Harris told me he had heard the policeman's whistle blowing.

Cheers, George

Which I don't believe was true. I think he was out on the street. By the way, no man by the name of Harris has been found living in Brunswick street, at around that time.

[GBinOz]

Spooner must have known Harris, because he referred to him by name. I'm not convinced from Times report (below)............Hello, my name's Harris. What's happening.

The two men who who apparently heard and responded to the early whistle, Herschburg and Harris, knew a man who was on the street at the time of the murder - by sheer coincidence ... or not. I don't think there is evidence that either knew Spooner.

Mr Harris apparently said he responded to the whistle, but where was he at the time? Spooner said he met Harris on his way to the yard. He also said Harris came running after him. So when Spooner set off, was Harris behind him, or in front of him? Spooner said he was in his house (below). Harris followed him until he got his attention to ask questions.

If Harris was not in the yard, then who are the men in the DN report I quoted in #2662? What do you suppose Harris did, if not go into the yard?
Do you mean the men you named? According to list below Harris, Isaacs(Koze) and Jacobs were WVC. I don't see Spooner or Herschburg on the list. I think that Harris stayed aound his home and was the person seen by Brown directing Collins to the yard. JMO.

Was Spooner's lady friend in the yard? There is no report that states she was. I don't think she was at the yard.

Hi Andrew,

Times 3 Oct 1888:- By the jury. - As I was going to Berner-street I did not meet any one except Mr. Harris, who came out of his house in Tiger Bay (Brunswick-street). Mr. Harris told me he had heard the policeman's whistle blowing.


THE MEMBERS OF THE WHITECHAPEL VIGILANCE COMMITTEE

George Lusk - President	Joseph Aarons - Treasurer
Mr. B. Harris - Honorary Secretary	Mr. J. A. Cohen - Committee Member
Mr. Reeves - Committee Member	Mr. Haughton - Committee Member
Mr. Lindsay - Committee Member	Mr. Jacobs - Committee Member
Mr. Isaacs - Committee Member	Mr. Mitchell - Committee Member
Mr. Hodgins - Committee Member	Mr. Barnett - Committee Member
Mr. Lord - Committee Member	Mr. Lawton - Committee Member
Mr. Vander Hunt - Committee Member	Mr. Sheed - Committee Member
Mr. Van Gelder - Committee Member	Albert Bachert - Chairman (1889)

Cheers, George

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Hi NBFN,

Are those statements from the same or from different news reports?

- Jeff

Different. I just grabbed the Spooner quote from whatever relevant page I was on at the time.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Hi Andrew,

I have not read anything that would indicate that Spooner knew Harris, or whether Harris was inside or outside his home when he heard the whistle. He would hardly have been responding to a whistle that he blew himself, and I don't know of any reprot that says he was at the yard.

Cheers, George

Spooner must have known Harris, because he referred to him by name.

The two men who who apparently heard and responded to the early whistle, Herschburg and Harris, knew a man who was on the street at the time of the murder - by sheer coincidence ... or not.

Mr Harris apparently said he responded to the whistle, but where was he at the time? Spooner said he met Harris on his way to the yard. He also said Harris came running after him. So when Spooner set off, was Harris behind him, or in front of him?

If Harris was not in the yard, then who are the men in the DN report I quoted in #2662? What do you suppose Harris did, if not go into the yard?

Was Spooner's lady friend in the yard? There is no report that states she was.

[GBinOz]

George,
do you not think it more than a coincidence that of all the people who could have come out of their homes after hearing a police whistle, who Spooner could potentially have run into on his way to the yard, the only person was someone he seems to have known?

Harris wasn't in his home when the whistle was blown, he was outside. There were three Harris's known to have been members of the WVC. Spooner's Harris was one of them. He may well have been the early whistle blower, and of course he went to the yard.

Hi Andrew,

I have not read anything that would indicate that Spooner knew Harris, or whether Harris was inside or outside his home when he heard the whistle. He would hardly have been responding to a whistle that he blew himself, and I don't know of any reprot that says he was at the yard.

Cheers, George

[JeffHamm]

Yeah, I guess it's possible they met in the waiting room. Spooner did not meet Harris at the inquest, so he must have already known him, unless they got talking together in the yard.

There are references in the testimony to "the previous witness", etc, from a few different statements. It doesn't appear witnesses were kept separate and could hear what other witnesses said. So, he could just have noted PC Lamb's name when he testified.

- Jeff