torso maps

[RockySullivan]

Hi Rocko
dispersal for what though? certainly not an overt attempt at hiding or hindering ID.

Abby that's an absurd statement. Dismemberment and dispersal is done to hinder identification.

[Abby Normal]

Abby that's an absurd statement. Dismemberment and dispersal is done to hinder identification.

Hi Rocky
not the way he did it.

BTW afew posts up I said that hindering ID may have been part of it-I just see something else going on here-no big wup.


kemper used to cut the heads off and keep them, ridgeway and bundy used to go vist the dump sites to relive the fantasy. Dahmer used to cut them up and keep them near, as did Gein.


Not exactly the same as torso man, but my point being is that it seems the way some serial killers dump/leave/do stuff with the bodies and parts after death has more significance to it than just hiding evidence/preventing ID, especially these post mortem serial killers. whos main deal is after death anyway. see what im sayin?


me and you a while back were discussing the LISK. Now that seems like a SK who REALLY wanted to dismember and disperse for getting the bodies out of his chop shop and hiding evidence, with no extra significance.

[Abby Normal]

yup thanks Jer

to me though this smacks of distributing parts for his own weird reasons not necessarily dispersing to hinder discovery or ID.

if he wanted to get rid of without them being found, why didn't he just chuck them all in the water? and the parts on land-why not try to hide, bury etc?

also forgot to add
That yes I agree he could have done it on that route all in one trip as he went along. almost like sowing seeds.


and if was the Torsoripper-I lean toward chop shop in west, live in the east. Because Ive always thought that perhaps the torsos are when he had access to his chop shop (and or cart) and the ripper victims were when he did not and had to kill on the street.

[jerryd]

yup thanks Jer

to me though this smacks of distributing parts for his own weird reasons not necessarily dispersing to hinder discovery or ID.

if he wanted to get rid of without them being found, why didn't he just chuck them all in the water? and the parts on land-why not try to hide, bury etc?

Abby,

I don’t think I ever said it was to hide ID. Burying body parts in clothing the victims wore is evidence of that. The Shelley House may or may not be a statement by the killer imo. It was being rented out at the time and the renter on vacation in the Isle of Wight.

[jerryd]

That is a very logical deduction - going on the dumping factor only.

But once we realize that we have two series of murders involving a great number of commonalities such as evicerations, heart removal, uterus removal and the taking away of the abdominal wall in flaps in both series, we must accept that the by far likeliest thing is that both series were perpetrated by the same man.

And when we work from that angle, we realize that the Ripper series seems to have nothing at all to do with Battersea - far from it. It was a series that implied that the perp lived or worked near Whitechapel.

And then we get the hybrid of a dismembered torso victim, found dumped on Ripper ground.

Very clearly, something out of the ordinary is going on here. and the solution is not to tell the series apart - that is effectively hindered by the glaring commonalities. Instead, we must accept that the man who killed in Whitechapel and St Georges had a reason for dumping his body parts from the torso killings much further to the west, generally speaking. And that reason may have been a practical one or something that carried another significance to him.

Myself, I find it very hard not to accept that the torso murders had an element of attention-seeking to them. As he went along, he must have learnt that the parcels drifted down the Thames surfaced all over central London - if he did not know that from the outset and sought that effect, that is. Add to this that he placed parts in the garden of Percy Shelleys estate and in the cellar vaults of Scotland Yards, and it all pans out nicely.

I fully understand that if this is what happened, then we are looking at a unique killer. But to be frank, very many serial killers are unique, one way or another.

I regard it as a given that we are dealing with one killer only. And that makes it all the more fascinating to try and understand what he did.

Thanks Christer 😀

I think you and I have discussed my position on this before. I don’t rule out one killer in both series. I just feel there was more than one man involved in both series and they were working together.

[RockySullivan]

Abby,

I don’t think I ever said it was to hide ID. Burying body parts in clothing the victims wore is evidence of that. The Shelley House may or may not be a statement by the killer imo. It was being rented out at the time and the renter on vacation in the Isle of Wight.

dismemberment/dispersal is a method to hinder identification and slow down the investigation . The dismemberment could have been done in order to bring the body out in parts from a building so as not to be seen carrying a body but the dispersal was still done in an attempt to stop the police putting the pieces together.

[RockySullivan]

me and you a while back were discussing the LISK. Now that seems like a SK who REALLY wanted to dismember and disperse for getting the bodies out of his chop shop and hiding evidence, with no extra significance.

It's the same Abby, the extra significance just isn't there. And while LISK went through all the trouble to dismember and disperse 40+ miles apart he still left the clothes on the body which led to an id.

[Abby Normal]

It's the same Abby, the extra significance just isn't there. And while LISK went through all the trouble to dismember and disperse 40+ miles apart he still left the clothes on the body which led to an id.

Hi rocky
I just dont see it that way.

LISK seem to be just trying to get rid of the bodies wirh as little risk and some hiding, whereas torso man is distributing around for some extra meaning.

I mean cmon. Torso man:

No overt attempts at hiding
Parts thrown in the river eventhough he knows early parts in same way are being found
A torso hauled into the vaults at great risk and effort.
Parts in the shelley estate.
Pinchin street in full view.

Jackson torso found on land while some other parts in river.

Its like sowing seeds or something.

[RockySullivan]

Hi rocky
I just dont see it that way.

LISK seem to be just trying to get rid of the bodies wirh as little risk and some hiding, whereas torso man is distributing around for some extra meaning.

I mean cmon. Torso man:

No overt attempts at hiding
Parts thrown in the river eventhough he knows early parts in same way are being found
A torso hauled into the vaults at great risk and effort.
Parts in the shelley estate.
Pinchin street in full view.

Jackson torso found on land while some other parts in river.

Its like sowing seeds or something.

Abby you just made my argument for me. The proof is in the pudding. Only one of the torso victim's was identified. "Distributing around for meaning"? Distributing around to stop the police from identifying the body and solving the murder.

[Abby Normal]

Abby you just made my argument for me. The proof is in the pudding. Only one of the torso victim's was identified. "Distributing around for meaning"? Distributing around to stop the police from identifying the body and solving the murder.

As i said before i do beleive that yes that was part of it of course!
Yes he was distributing to get the bodies out of the house!
yes he distributed around to hinder ID.

But there is more to it than that IMHO. Special meaning.

It dosnt have to be either or rocky. One dosnt preclude the other. SKs can do something for more than one motivation.

And yes only one was Ided. But that probably has more to do with that they were poor and probably prostitutes and no one who could ID cared enough to notice them missing, come forward etc.

[Joshua Rogan]

Abby you just made my argument for me. The proof is in the pudding. Only one of the torso victim's was identified. "Distributing around for meaning"? Distributing around to stop the police from identifying the body and solving the murder.

Would the police have been any more likely to identify a victim if all the body parts were dumped in one place?

[RockySullivan]

Would the police have been any more likely to identify a victim if all the body parts were dumped in one place?

Yes, especially since they would have the head which includes the face.

[RockySullivan]

As i said before i do beleive that yes that was part of it of course!
Yes he was distributing to get the bodies out of the house!
yes he distributed around to hinder ID.

But there is more to it than that IMHO. Special meaning.

abbs but as jerry pointed out here pretty much everything was on or around the embankment

The Shelley garden was on the embankment, IIRC. The Pimlico arm was on the foreshore of the embankment. Several of the other body parts from the victims were thought to have been tossed from one of the bridges near Battersea. From there they floated down the river until discovery. In my mind there weren’t multiple drops of body parts at each location they were found. The common starting point seems to be The Battersea area. To me that points to the perp living or working in that area

Traveling down Grosvenor Road to Battersea and back would allow tor dumping parts exactly where they were found. i.e the Pimlico arm, Shelley estate thigh,Albert Bridge and Battersea Park.

So the "meaning" behind all those location is that they were chosen because of their proximity to the embankment. Look at the body parts that weren't dumped near the embankment like Pinchin or the 84 Tottenham court road. These are the ones that standout

[Joshua Rogan]

Yes, especially since they would have the head which includes the face.

Good point. Although in the 1873 case the face was recovered but it was no longer attached to the head.

[jerryd]

Good point. Although in the 1873 case the face was recovered but it was no longer attached to the head.

And in the 1884 case the head was found with the eyes plucked out, a large knife wound to the cheek disfiguring the mouth and the nose cut off.