torso maps

[Jon Guy]

The Arnold/Lynch/Cleary story is complicated.

In short, John Arnold was using the alias "John (C)Leary when he reported the torso to the Herald. When searching for the informer, Donald Swanson found a man named Dennis Lynch working for a green grocer on Newcastle Street, Strand. When questioned, Dennis Lynch stated he once lived at 21 Whitehorse Yard (the address John Arnold gave as his to the Herald reporters). After questioning the residents of Whitehorse Yard it was determined Lynch was using the alias "John Leary". John Arnold lived at 21 Whitehorse Yard with wife and children in an earlier census but later deserted them. Swanson looked at the signature Arnold made on his statement to the Herald and concluded when starting to spell "Leary" he made a long flourish that made the signature look like "Cleary".In my opinion, John Arnold knew Dennis Lynch and used his address and alias when he made his pre-mature news report. Feathers Court (Pearly Polls temporary address) was a block away from Newcastle Street and Whitehorse Yard.

Claude Mellor steps in and states he also knows a John Cleary (different one entirely) that was a former compositor with the Globe and was living in Savoy Buildings, Strand. This Cleary is the six foot, 35 year old. Mellor must have had some reason to suspect this man other than just name.

Thanks JD
Yes, very complicated, but the above has helped, thank you
I`ve just seen your recent thread on the subject on JTR Forums.

[jerryd]

Thanks Bud. Can`t believe that one crept past you ;-)

I should do a bit of research on the two men, really, before theorising ..
I`ve seen descriptions of the 2 men.
I believe John Cleary was 30yrs old and 6 foot
and soldier John Leary was 5`10 and 28

Didn`t John Cleary have some connection to Feather Court, where Pearly Poll used to live ? (and John Leary the solider is picked out by PC Barrett in the Tabram case)

The Arnold/Lynch/Cleary story is complicated.

In short, John Arnold was using the alias "John (C)Leary when he reported the torso to the Herald. When searching for the informer, Donald Swanson found a man named Dennis Lynch working for a green grocer on Newcastle Street, Strand. When questioned, Dennis Lynch stated he once lived at 21 Whitehorse Yard (the address John Arnold gave as his to the Herald reporters). After questioning the residents of Whitehorse Yard it was determined Lynch was using the alias "John Leary". John Arnold lived at 21 Whitehorse Yard with wife and children in an earlier census but later deserted them. Swanson looked at the signature Arnold made on his statement to the Herald and concluded when starting to spell "Leary" he made a long flourish that made the signature look like "Cleary".In my opinion, John Arnold knew Dennis Lynch and used his address and alias when he made his pre-mature news report. Feathers Court (Pearly Polls temporary address) was a block away from Newcastle Street and Whitehorse Yard.

Claude Mellor steps in and states he also knows a John Cleary (different one entirely) that was a former compositor with the Globe and was living in Savoy Buildings, Strand. This Cleary is the six foot, 35 year old. Mellor must have had some reason to suspect this man other than just name.

[jerryd]

Thanks Jerry
do you have an article or dissertation or something where you lay ALL this stuff out?

I don't, sorry Abby.

[Jon Guy]

Great spot, Jon! I'd not clocked that connection before.

Thanks Bud. Can`t believe that one crept past you ;-)

I should do a bit of research on the two men, really, before theorising ..
I`ve seen descriptions of the 2 men.
I believe John Cleary was 30yrs old and 6 foot
and soldier John Leary was 5`10 and 28

Didn`t John Cleary have some connection to Feather Court, where Pearly Poll used to live ? (and John Leary the solider is picked out by PC Barrett in the Tabram case)

[Abby Normal]

Hi Abby,

Cleary is mentioned in the Pinchin torso case. Claude Mellor was a news reporter that discovered the thigh of Elizabeth Jackson in the Shelley garden.

I doubt the cases will ever be satisfactorily solved, but, I do believe the John Arnold story is a key to some clues in that particular case.

so mellor and john cleary are the same person?

[Abby Normal]

Hi Abby,

Cleary is mentioned in the Pinchin torso case. Claude Mellor was a news reporter that discovered the thigh of Elizabeth Jackson in the Shelley garden.

I doubt the cases will ever be satisfactorily solved, but, I do believe the John Arnold story is a key to some clues in that particular case.

Thanks Jerry
do you have an article or dissertation or something where you lay ALL this stuff out?

[Joshua Rogan]

Re.John Cleary
It is intriguing that John Leary was the name of the soldier picked out by PC Barrett (Tabram).

Great spot, Jon! I'd not clocked that connection before.

[Jon Guy]

Cleary is mentioned in the Pinchin torso case..

Hi Jerry

Re.John Cleary
It is intriguing that John Leary was the name of the soldier picked out by PC Barrett (Tabram).

[jerryd]

Hi jerry
Your a mad genius whos going to solve this case ! Lol

Do you have your entire theory written down in one place? I keep asking you the same questions over again!

Clearys name comes up in one of the torso murder prediction stories correct?

Hi Abby,

Cleary is mentioned in the Pinchin torso case. Claude Mellor was a news reporter that discovered the thigh of Elizabeth Jackson in the Shelley garden.

I doubt the cases will ever be satisfactorily solved, but, I do believe the John Arnold story is a key to some clues in that particular case.

[Abby Normal]

One often overlooked similarity in the Pinchin torso case and the ripper case is the use of chalk writing to communicate something to someone. Of course in the ripper case one would first have to accept the GSG having been chalked by the killer of Catherine Eddowes. In the Pinchin torso case we have two chalked messages. One was certainly related to the dismembered body as the word “John Cleary is a fool” were chalked on a few dead walls near the arch. The second is not as clear if it was related but was found opposite the arch where the body was found. The name “Lipski” was chalked on a black paling.

Also interesting to note that Israel Schwartz ran to a nearby railway arch after being chased by Pipeman. The Pinchin Street arches are one possible location. Pipeman was described as 5’11” and 35 years old. Claude Mellors “ John Cleary” living in Savoy Buildings was described as 6’0” and 35 years old.

Hi jerry
Your a mad genius whos going to solve this case ! Lol

Do you have your entire theory written down in one place? I keep asking you the same questions over again!

Clearys name comes up in one of the torso murder prediction stories correct?

[Abby Normal]

Swap Stride's murder with McKenzie's.

Ripper murder or not?

Yup on mckenzie. Stride less so.

[Harry D]

Swap Stride's murder with McKenzie's.

Ripper murder or not?

[jerryd]

One often overlooked similarity in the Pinchin torso case and the ripper case is the use of chalk writing to communicate something to someone. Of course in the ripper case one would first have to accept the GSG having been chalked by the killer of Catherine Eddowes. In the Pinchin torso case we have two chalked messages. One was certainly related to the dismembered body as the word “John Cleary is a fool” were chalked on a few dead walls near the arch. The second is not as clear if it was related but was found opposite the arch where the body was found. The name “Lipski” was chalked on a black paling.

Also interesting to note that Israel Schwartz ran to a nearby railway arch after being chased by Pipeman. The Pinchin Street arches are one possible location. Pipeman was described as 5’11” and 35 years old. Claude Mellors “ John Cleary” living in Savoy Buildings was described as 6’0” and 35 years old.

[Michael W Richards]

Ripperology must be founded on the most illogical premise around...we have victims of various ages, we have assumed explanations by modern and contemporary theorists for why the victims were where they were when they were attacked, why they were killed, ...we have different knives, we have differing techniques, we have differing skill levels determining physiology and different skill levels with sharp knife work, we have wounds that differ, we have different jurisdictions, we have different organs taken, some have none taken, we have no known connections of any victim with any other victim, nor do we have any Signature or MO that is maintained or enhanced during the "spree"...and these differences suggest a single mad killer to people? Maybe people on peyote.

The Torsos were nothing like these acts, even with all the differences, so a thread trying to assert that these disparate acts also suggest continuity in the killer is beyond a reach.

[jerryd]

Where do we hear about the 15 wounds, and what form did they take?

Might I please suggest we take this to a McKenzie thread? I feel genuine angst when such detail is focused on one case on a board dedicated to another topic. Some good stuff usually gets lost in the noise, which is a real pity. Far better to keep things properly "filed" - in this case, under "M for McKenzie".

Can't help it, sorry... I must been a frustrated librarian in a past life!

Gareth,

I agree the McKenzie stuff is better suited on a specific thread. There are plenty out there already. Also, I’ve always cautioned myself against making the librarian angry. Especially a frustrated one!!

To answer your question, the information on the “wounds” are in the surviving records of the Metropolitan Police. MEPO 3/140, ff263-71. They were mostly superficial wounds to the lower abdomen. 7 commencing toward the navel from the major wound make 8 and 7 more lower down. There were also 5 excoriating wounds on the pubis from pulling up the tight clothing which I didn’t include in the count. In addition there were the fingernail marks on the abdomen.