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  • Originally posted by Abby Normal View Post
    It must have been a pain in the ass getting that torso in there rocky. He did it for a reason.
    the reason most likely being that he was familiar with the vault and felt that was a good place to put it? Because of the proximity of the building to the embankment I dont think it was a message to scotland yard

    Comment


    • Originally posted by RockySullivan View Post
      the reason most likely being that he was familiar with the vault and felt that was a good place to put it? Because of the proximity of the building to the embankment I dont think it was a message to scotland yard
      Hi Rocky,

      Daily Telegraph Oct 3, 1888:

      "When there, instead of throwing the body into the large open well dug to supply water, or secreting it beneath some of the countless heaps of soil and rubbish lying about, he conveyed it, almost fifty yards, through a network of partly underground passages to a remote corner of the building."

      Of all the places in the vault, the torso and leg ended up within feet of each other in the same vault the workers used to store their tools. I’m not too sure the body was conveyed there from the outside. Perhaps the murder and dismemberment started and ended in that basement.

      With Jackson and Rainham the majority of the parts were located. Pinchin and Whitehall, a total of 3 legs and an arm were never found other than the heads of the victims. The river was just outside the hoarding at Whitehall. An easy dump it seems.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by jerryd View Post
        Hi Rocky,

        Daily Telegraph Oct 3, 1888:

        "When there, instead of throwing the body into the large open well dug to supply water, or secreting it beneath some of the countless heaps of soil and rubbish lying about, he conveyed it, almost fifty yards, through a network of partly underground passages to a remote corner of the building."

        Of all the places in the vault, the torso and leg ended up within feet of each other in the same vault the workers used to store their tools. I’m not too sure the body was conveyed there from the outside. Perhaps the murder and dismemberment started and ended in that basement.

        With Jackson and Rainham the majority of the parts were located. Pinchin and Whitehall, a total of 3 legs and an arm were never found other than the heads of the victims. The river was just outside the hoarding at Whitehall. An easy dump it seems.
        dear jer, i know we've discussed it at length but if the torso was brought into the vault how do you think the killer got it in there? I think its likely the torso was brought into the vault because it was packaged up, tied in string and wrapped in an old coat. However it may have been prepared that way to be taken out of the vault and dumped somewhere else. I also think it's possible the vault could have been a temporary storage rental. But if the victim was chopped up in the vault, how did the killer get her inside?

        Comment


        • Hi jer and rocky
          I dont see a live victim going with the killer into the vault. And as rocky siad, she seemed to be packaged up.

          The killer took the torso in there and deposited it.

          I dont think it was some kind of direct message TO the police.

          I think he had a specific reason in his own mind. Corrupting the location, an insult about the police, something along those lines.

          If anyone else has any ideas why torso man left,dumped etc the torsos/parts the way he did would love to hear your thoughts.

          The river
          Along side the river
          Pinchin street
          The police vault
          Shelly estate

          Something going on here and its not just ramdon dumping to get rid of thats for sure.
          "Is all that we see or seem
          but a dream within a dream?"

          -Edgar Allan Poe


          "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
          quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

          -Frederick G. Abberline

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Abby Normal View Post

            If anyone else has any ideas why torso man left,dumped etc the torsos/parts the way he did would love to hear your thoughts.
            I think to hinder identification. Disperse the body parts so it's harder to put them together. It worked in most cases, except Liz Jackson and I believe that's because she was traced through the LE Fisher initials in her underwear?

            Comment


            • Originally posted by RockySullivan View Post
              I think to hinder identification. Disperse the body parts so it's harder to put them together. It worked in most cases, except Liz Jackson and I believe that's because she was traced through the LE Fisher initials in her underwear?
              Hi rocky
              I think that may only be part of it.

              Why not just throw them all in the river? Bury them, burn them whatever.

              Weve got parts of jackson in the river.
              Her Torso on the bank.

              Parts on the shelley estate.

              A torso taken with extreme risk, and considerable effort into the vault. A place where workers frequented and knew probably would be found.

              Pinchin street.

              The parts in the river were found, no overt attempt to sink. Het kept throwing them in as is.

              Something else is going on imho. Some weird reason to the killer.
              "Is all that we see or seem
              but a dream within a dream?"

              -Edgar Allan Poe


              "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
              quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

              -Frederick G. Abberline

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Abby Normal View Post
                Hi jer and rocky
                I dont see a live victim going with the killer into the vault. And as rocky siad, she seemed to be packaged up.
                The torso itself was packaged up in clothing. Presumably the victims own clothing. The leg was buried and not parceled. The arm had a string attached but bare otherwise.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by jerryd View Post
                  The torso itself was packaged up in clothing. Presumably the victims own clothing. The leg was buried and not parceled. The arm had a string attached but bare otherwise.
                  thank you jer. I just don't see a live victim going in there with him
                  "Is all that we see or seem
                  but a dream within a dream?"

                  -Edgar Allan Poe


                  "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
                  quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

                  -Frederick G. Abberline

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Abby Normal View Post
                    thank you jer. I just don't see a live victim going in there with him
                    I can appreciate that,Abby

                    My point is, if he had a pre-arranged “bolthole” (warehouse, house, etc), why would he not be prepared with the proper packaging equipment to parcel the parts? He seemed to use what was available.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by jerryd View Post
                      I can appreciate that,Abby

                      My point is, if he had a pre-arranged “bolthole” (warehouse, house, etc), why would he not be prepared with the proper packaging equipment to parcel the parts? He seemed to use what was available.
                      maybe that was part of the fantasy
                      "Is all that we see or seem
                      but a dream within a dream?"

                      -Edgar Allan Poe


                      "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
                      quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

                      -Frederick G. Abberline

                      Comment


                      • Abby,

                        The Shelley garden was on the embankment, IIRC. The Pimlico arm was on the foreshore of the embankment. Several of the other body parts from the victims were thought to have been tossed from one of the bridges near Battersea. From there they floated down the river until discovery. In my mind there weren’t multiple drops of body parts at each location they were found. The common starting point seems to be The Battersea area. To me that points to the perp living or working in that area

                        Traveling down Grosvenor Road to Battersea and back would allow tor dumping parts exactly where they were found. i.e the Pimlico arm, Shelley estate thigh,Albert Bridge and Battersea Park.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Abby Normal View Post
                          Hi rocky
                          I think that may only be part of it.

                          Why not just throw them all in the river? Bury them, burn them whatever.
                          Dispersal

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by jerryd View Post
                            Abby,

                            The Shelley garden was on the embankment, IIRC. The Pimlico arm was on the foreshore of the embankment. Several of the other body parts from the victims were thought to have been tossed from one of the bridges near Battersea. From there they floated down the river until discovery. In my mind there weren’t multiple drops of body parts at each location they were found. The common starting point seems to be The Battersea area. To me that points to the perp living or working in that area

                            Traveling down Grosvenor Road to Battersea and back would allow tor dumping parts exactly where they were found. i.e the Pimlico arm, Shelley estate thigh,Albert Bridge and Battersea Park.
                            yup thanks Jer

                            to me though this smacks of distributing parts for his own weird reasons not necessarily dispersing to hinder discovery or ID.

                            if he wanted to get rid of without them being found, why didn't he just chuck them all in the water? and the parts on land-why not try to hide, bury etc?
                            "Is all that we see or seem
                            but a dream within a dream?"

                            -Edgar Allan Poe


                            "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
                            quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

                            -Frederick G. Abberline

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by RockySullivan View Post
                              Dispersal
                              Hi Rocko
                              dispersal for what though? certainly not an overt attempt at hiding or hindering ID.

                              If that were the case just chuck em all in the river. or if on land-why not try to hide, bury Etc?

                              he was spreading these parts all around town for his own weird reason, it had special significance for him. what it was though I don't know.
                              "Is all that we see or seem
                              but a dream within a dream?"

                              -Edgar Allan Poe


                              "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
                              quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

                              -Frederick G. Abberline

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by jerryd View Post
                                In my mind there weren’t multiple drops of body parts at each location they were found. The common starting point seems to be The Battersea area. To me that points to the perp living or working in that area
                                That is a very logical deduction - going on the dumping factor only.

                                But once we realize that we have two series of murders involving a great number of commonalities such as evicerations, heart removal, uterus removal and the taking away of the abdominal wall in flaps in both series, we must accept that the by far likeliest thing is that both series were perpetrated by the same man.

                                And when we work from that angle, we realize that the Ripper series seems to have nothing at all to do with Battersea - far from it. It was a series that implied that the perp lived or worked near Whitechapel.

                                And then we get the hybrid of a dismembered torso victim, found dumped on Ripper ground.

                                Very clearly, something out of the ordinary is going on here. and the solution is not to tell the series apart - that is effectively hindered by the glaring commonalities. Instead, we must accept that the man who killed in Whitechapel and St Georges had a reason for dumping his body parts from the torso killings much further to the west, generally speaking. And that reason may have been a practical one or something that carried another significance to him.

                                Myself, I find it very hard not to accept that the torso murders had an element of attention-seeking to them. As he went along, he must have learnt that the parcels drifted down the Thames surfaced all over central London - if he did not know that from the outset and sought that effect, that is. Add to this that he placed parts in the garden of Percy Shelleys estate and in the cellar vaults of Scotland Yards, and it all pans out nicely.

                                I fully understand that if this is what happened, then we are looking at a unique killer. But to be frank, very many serial killers are unique, one way or another.

                                I regard it as a given that we are dealing with one killer only. And that makes it all the more fascinating to try and understand what he did.

                                Comment

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