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  • Originally posted by Sam Flynn View Post
    You're right - it sounds crazy. Or, rather, it sounds like trying to make a theory fit, instead of looking at the more likely explanation that there was more than one killer at work, who lived - and/or worked - in different parts of London at rather different times.
    Perhaps they shared a drink at the Ye Olde Serial Killer Inn?
    "Is all that we see or seem
    but a dream within a dream?"

    -Edgar Allan Poe


    "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
    quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

    -Frederick G. Abberline

    Comment


    • The one thing I'm convinced of is that New Scotland Yard and Pinchin Street weren't just random choices. They were statements, surely?

      NSY was torso man thumbing his nose at the cops, and Pinchin Street was possibly him doing the same to the Ripper. Or, if there was only one killer, then perhaps it was a cryptic way of suggesting the two series were connected.

      Of course, if you have Charles Lechmere in mind as the Ripper and torso man, then Pinchin Street is the ideal place for him to have made such a statement. It's in the part of the East End where he grew up, almost, but not quite, in Whitechapel. When he was living there as an adolescent the area was known as Tiger Bay, such was the ferocity of the women who plied their trade on its streets. The arch where the torso was deposited was more or less opposite the house* where he had been brought up by his policeman stepfather, and where he would very likely have had a fear/hatred of the numerous local prostitutes drummed into him by his respectable old Ma. If I were a Lechmerian, I'd be more than satisfied with that choice of drop site.

      *I'm convinced the house would have still been there, although much of the street had been swept away to accommodate the railway.

      Comment


      • If it was one man responsible for both series of deaths,and he wanted to leave a message,surely doing everything in the same locale would be preferable?
        After all, hasn't it been claimed he had a bolt hole in or near Whitechapel.

        Comment


        • I don't necessarily see the correlation between Pinchin st or even Whitehall and 'sending a message'. I believe the Pinchin torso wasn't parceled up like the others and so it likely was dumped from nearby. More likely a matter of proximity and a necessity to get rid of the torso. It's possible the Whitehall vault had more to do with familiarity than a message to Scotland Yard as well considering its proximity to the embankment.
          Last edited by RockySullivan; 07-22-2018, 02:09 AM.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by harry View Post
            If it was one man responsible for both series of deaths,and he wanted to leave a message,surely doing everything in the same locale would be preferable?
            After all, hasn't it been claimed he had a bolt hole in or near Whitechapel.
            But then no message would have been necessary. The 'message' of Pinchin Street (if there was one) was a geographical one.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Abby Normal View Post
              Bet ya a fiver it was the same guy.
              You lost five, Abby.
              Kind regards, Sam Flynn

              "Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)

              Comment


              • Originally posted by MrBarnett View Post
                But then no message would have been necessary. The 'message' of Pinchin Street (if there was one) was a geographical one.
                As in "I can dump a torso quite near where the least Ripper-like canonical Ripper murder happened"?

                I'm not being facetious, BTW, but this is about the only message I can read into the Pinchin Street case off the top of my head.
                Kind regards, Sam Flynn

                "Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)

                Comment


                • Originally posted by MrBarnett View Post
                  The one thing I'm convinced of is that New Scotland Yard and Pinchin Street weren't just random choices. They were statements, surely?

                  NSY was torso man thumbing his nose at the cops, and Pinchin Street was possibly him doing the same to the Ripper. Or, if there was only one killer, then perhaps it was a cryptic way of suggesting the two series were connected.

                  Of course, if you have Charles Lechmere in mind as the Ripper and torso man, then Pinchin Street is the ideal place for him to have made such a statement. It's in the part of the East End where he grew up, almost, but not quite, in Whitechapel. When he was living there as an adolescent the area was known as Tiger Bay, such was the ferocity of the women who plied their trade on its streets. The arch where the torso was deposited was more or less opposite the house* where he had been brought up by his policeman stepfather, and where he would very likely have had a fear/hatred of the numerous local prostitutes drummed into him by his respectable old Ma. If I were a Lechmerian, I'd be more than satisfied with that choice of drop site.

                  *I'm convinced the house would have still been there, although much of the street had been swept away to accommodate the railway.

                  Agree! One things for sure...where and how torso man disposed of the bodies/ parts had some kind of meaning.

                  And if you favor the ripper and torsoman(i lean towrd it) being the same man, then lech really makes a good suspect, especially age wise.
                  "Is all that we see or seem
                  but a dream within a dream?"

                  -Edgar Allan Poe


                  "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
                  quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

                  -Frederick G. Abberline

                  Comment


                  • I think the dumping had special significance to him, but not sure if hes trying to send a message. Its probably something in his own mind that makes sense to him but we just cant get our heads around what it is yet.

                    Perhaps something along the lines of marking his territory or polluting london, something weird like that.

                    I remember when they caught richard chase and he admittted why he had done alot of the stuff with the bodies they couldnt figure out, it made perfect sense. Bat **** crazy sense but there was a method to his madness. I think something like this might be going on with torso man
                    "Is all that we see or seem
                    but a dream within a dream?"

                    -Edgar Allan Poe


                    "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
                    quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

                    -Frederick G. Abberline

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Sam Flynn View Post
                      You lost five, Abby.
                      I dont think so sam, the more its debated on here them more i learn and the more it seems they were the same man.

                      I just cant imagine two of these cretins stalking around london at the same time
                      "Is all that we see or seem
                      but a dream within a dream?"

                      -Edgar Allan Poe


                      "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
                      quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

                      -Frederick G. Abberline

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by RockySullivan View Post
                        I don't necessarily see the correlation between Pinchin st or even Whitehall and 'sending a message'. I believe the Pinchin torso wasn't parceled up like the others and so it likely was dumped from nearby. More likely a matter of proximity and a necessity to get rid of the torso. It's possible the Whitehall vault had more to do with familiarity than a message to Scotland Yard as well considering its proximity to the embankment.
                        It must have been a pain in the ass getting that torso in there rocky. He did it for a reason.
                        "Is all that we see or seem
                        but a dream within a dream?"

                        -Edgar Allan Poe


                        "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
                        quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

                        -Frederick G. Abberline

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Abby Normal View Post
                          I just cant imagine two of these cretins stalking around london at the same time
                          Why limit ourselves to two? There's a very good chance that at least six of the Whitechapel Murder series were perpetrated by six separate men, and it's quite possible that the torso murders were perpetrated by at least two separate people - one true serial killer operating in the West, and a "one-off" torso killer (who didn't mind leaving the arms intact) in the East. Add that to the "true Ripper", and I make it at least nine separate killers at large in London between 1887-89, and the true figure is almost certainly greater than that; greater still if we extend the date parameters to cover a longer span of time.
                          Last edited by Sam Flynn; 07-22-2018, 07:42 AM.
                          Kind regards, Sam Flynn

                          "Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Sam Flynn View Post
                            Why limit ourselves to two? There's a very good chance that at least six of the Whitechapel Murder series were perpetrated by six separate men, and it's quite possible that the torso murders were perpetrated by at least two separate people - one true serial killer operating in the West, and a "one-off" torso killer (who didn't mind leaving the arms intact) in the East. Add that to the "true Ripper", and I make it at least nine separate killers at large in London between 1887-89, and the true figure is almost certainly greater than that; greater still if we extend the date parameters to cover a longer span of time.
                            How do you get 6 for wc series? And if you imclude the ripper in that then arent there 8 total not 9?
                            "Is all that we see or seem
                            but a dream within a dream?"

                            -Edgar Allan Poe


                            "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
                            quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

                            -Frederick G. Abberline

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Abby Normal View Post
                              How do you get 6 for wc series?
                              Sorry, I should have said five: Tabram, McKenzie, Mylett, Smith and Coles. (I'd have double-checked if I hadn't been using the browser on my phone.)
                              And if you imclude the ripper in that then arent there 8 total not 9?
                              Correct, but I'm only counting killers we know were at large in well-publicised cases in two parts of London; if the torso-ripper was mobile enough to operate in Battersea and Spitalfields, why not count murderers in other parts of London within a similar radius over a similar period of time?
                              Last edited by Sam Flynn; 07-22-2018, 08:58 AM.
                              Kind regards, Sam Flynn

                              "Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)

                              Comment


                              • Eviscerators and dismemberment killers are very rare creatures. The more of their ilk we try to launch in the same city and general time span, the less likely we are to be correct.

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