torso maps

[Harry D]

Not in terms of establishing a pattern it isn't. The overwhelming pattern of the torso murders places the majority elsewhere. And the Pinchin case is an exception within that series, geographically and in terms of its execution.

Ah, see now you're not being objective, Sam. I didn't mention establishing a pattern based on whatever arbitrary number you think qualifies. I said there was geographical overlap between the two series, and there was.

[RockySullivan]

Not in terms of establishing a pattern it isn't. The overwhelming pattern of the torso murders places the majority elsewhere. And the Pinchin case is an exception within that series, geographically and in terms of its execution.

When you have a series of murders around the embankment and another series of murders in the East End and both series involve post-mortem operations on the reproductive organs it is significant when a torso from the embankment series shows up in Whitechapel.

[Sam Flynn]

now if you say -to aid in transporting the body so its not as heavy etc-we still have the problem that it was accessed by cutting out flaps. just like chapman and kelly!

Not just like Chapman and Kelly. The number and nature of those infernal "flaps" were different in each case.

[Sam Flynn]

It doesn't matter that it was one Torso case that overlapped in Ripper territory. Once is enough.

Not in terms of establishing a pattern it isn't. The overwhelming pattern of the torso murders places the majority elsewhere. And the Pinchin case is an exception within that series, geographically and in terms of its execution.

[Pcdunn]

I get you now, Gareth, thanks! And that's certainly a possibility. He may just have wanted to get rid of the "bump" in order to make the cutting up of the torso and dumping of the body parts more easy.

I do recommend this book: https://www.amazon.com/Human-Anatomy.../dp/3791383299 Full title is "Human Anatomy: Stereoscopic Images of Medical Specimens".

https://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=10905

Thread called "Book on Antique Medical Specimens" in Books-- Other. It seems that infants and fetuses were quite popular as prepared medical specimens for teaching purposes.

After looking at some of the images in the book, you really do realize how callous some Victorians could be re the dead, and parts of dead human bodies.

[RockySullivan]

Then I can only ask why he didn’t take the same precaution when killing his other victims?

If your suggesting a degree of planning, and there’s nothing wrong with that, I can’t see how he could have ‘planned’ for his victim having a room?

Maybe he did, I don't know, maybe some ripper victims were killed indoors and brought outside or maybe the some of the more ideal conditions provided by Kelly's living situation weren't available in other victims? "Planned" for his victim having a room? Do you mean aware of the fact the victim had a room before the murder?

[Abby Normal]

Three of them: Chapman, Eddowes and Kelly... and they each had other abdominal organs removed, too. Unlike Jackson.
As already noted, Jackson was 7 months pregnant and her foetus was cut out along with her womb. The desire to extract the baby might have been the reason for the removal of her uterus, rather than the latter being targeted as an end in itself.

Hi sam
thanks for the correction!

As already noted, Jackson was 7 months pregnant and her foetus was cut out along with her womb. The desire to extract the baby might have been the reason for the removal of her uterus, rather than the latter being targeted as an end in itself.

if post mortem mutilation and targeting female sexual parts was the motivation for cutting out the baby-then that is similar to the ripper.


if not-why cut out the baby? I would think if dismemeberment was his goal, why go through all that trouble? just cut the body in half below the baby bump. no?


now if you say -to aid in transporting the body so its not as heavy etc-we still have the problem that it was accessed by cutting out flaps. just like chapman and kelly!

[Abby Normal]

Hi Abby,

Any research done by Debs or any other researcher is worthwhile and it’s an interesting avenue. Surely though, if her research increases the likelihood that Jackson was killed during a backstreet operation, this would pretty much be a nail in the coffin for the one killer theory?

Hi HS
Not really-Maybe just a bump on the head.-as I mentioned before-it wouldn't preclude this man from being the torso killer or the ripper for that matter.


because it would have to be established that it was an accident-and that would probably be impossible to prove. it could have been done on purpose.


but I could definitely see some psychopath back street doctor type with some medical training to be the torso, ripper or both.

[Harry D]

Like I said, Pinchin Street was the sole exception. I should point out that none of the Ripper murders happened outside a tight little area of the East End, so if there was an overlap it only went one way.In only one case, and that was an exception in that she was dumped close in time and space to a policeman's beat and sleeping tramps, both the victim's arms were still attached, and ISTR that no other body parts were found - not in the Thames or anywhere else. Not only that, but the nearest Ripper victim to Pinchin Street (Stride) was herself an exception in the series of 1888, and there is some doubt that she was a Ripper victim at all.

That is not strictly true, is it? Besides, there have been cases of multiple serial murderers operating in the same general time-frame in the same broad geographical area before. Note my words: "general" time-frame and "broad" geographical area, because that's what we're honestly dealing with when comparing TK and JTR.
As I said, only ONE of the torso victims was found in the same part of London as the Ripper murders.

It doesn't matter that it was one Torso case that overlapped in Ripper territory. Once is enough.

[Herlock Sholmes]

No "operation procedure" is irrelevant because the fact is very few people knew how to remove these reproductive organs

My response was due to my belief that you appeared to be saying, and I’m sorry if I misinterpreted you, ‘why would someone with specialised skill’ make such a large clumsy cut.’ That was why I said what I did.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Of course not I just don't believe the killer would do what he did without some degree of planning.

Then I can only ask why he didn’t take the same precaution when killing his other victims?

If your suggesting a degree of planning, and there’s nothing wrong with that, I can’t see how he could have ‘planned’ for his victim having a room?

[RockySullivan]

If the killer did have specialised knowledge, and I’m unsure whether we can be certain of that, do we have to believe that he did what he did whilst working to strict operational procedures? Let’s face it, he wasn’t performing a heart transplant, he was killing and butchering.

No "operation procedure" is irrelevant because the fact is very few people knew how to remove these reproductive organs

[RockySullivan]

I can only ‘assume’ that you believe that Kelly was killed by either Hutchinson or Barnett?

Of course not I just don't believe the killer would do what he did without some degree of planning.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Both series of murders reveal a specialized knowledge. What is your excuse for the 15 inch cut from pubes to sternum on the pinchin torso?

If the killer did have specialised knowledge, and I’m unsure whether we can be certain of that, do we have to believe that he did what he did whilst working to strict operational procedures? Let’s face it, he wasn’t performing a heart transplant, he was killing and butchering.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Both series of murders reveal a specialized knowledge. What is your excuse for the 15 inch cut from pubes to sternum on the pinchin torso?

Has it been accepted that both series of murders required specialised knowledge? Or is that debated?