torso maps

[RockySullivan]

‘Flaps’ is nowhere near good enough Gareth but they’ve become hooks to hang a case on. Can anyone tell us the difference between a ‘flap’ or a ‘strip’ or a ‘slip?’ Can anyone say that they know what a ‘flap’ looks like? Or does the criteria for a ‘flap’ change in terms of size? Say 3 inches long is a ‘flap’ but over 3 inches is a ‘strip.’ It appears to mean a piece of loose flesh, still attached to the body, caused by a weapon of some kind.

Far too vague to make such a fuss about in my opinion. It smacks of desperation.

this post reeks of desperation

[RockySullivan]

That’s what I mean. If you suggest, correct me if I’m wrong, that part of the ripper’s plan was that his victim (Kelly) had her own room which would have afforded him the privacy that he wouldn’t have had if he’d killed her in the streets like the other victims, then either he would have known that beforehand so I’d ask how. Or, it was just good fortune, in which case it wasn’t a plan but just someone take advantage of a fortuitous circumstance. Another question would be, if Kelly hadn’t have had a room would the ripper have decided not to kill her. Maybe it could be said that after The Double Event he wanted to reduce his risk of being caught? But I’d suggest that he might have struggled to find prostitutes with their own rooms?

serial killers sometimes plan ahead

[jerryd]

"Flaps" is not a technical term, and is about as specific - and useful - as "pieces". With respect to the Jackson torso, and only that case among the torso victims, they were described as "slips" (or strips) of flesh, and they were only two in number, as opposed to three in the Chapman and Kelly murders. Furthermore, the flaps/pieces cut from Kelly's abdomen were huge, and significantly more extensive than either Chapman or Jackson.

So "flaps" is not good enough at all. It's far too non-specific a term.

Dr. Hibberts opening statement in “A System of Legal Medicine” regarding The Jackson case is:

The parts found were 1) two large flaps of skin.....

[Abby Normal]

‘Flaps’ is nowhere near good enough Gareth but they’ve become hooks to hang a case on. Can anyone tell us the difference between a ‘flap’ or a ‘strip’ or a ‘slip?’ Can anyone say that they know what a ‘flap’ looks like? Or does the criteria for a ‘flap’ change in terms of size? Say 3 inches long is a ‘flap’ but over 3 inches is a ‘strip.’ It appears to mean a piece of loose flesh, still attached to the body, caused by a weapon of some kind.

Far too vague to make such a fuss about in my opinion. It smacks of desperation.

FLAPS!!!!!

hehehehe

[Herlock Sholmes]

"Flaps" is not a technical term, and is about as specific - and useful - as "pieces". With respect to the Jackson torso, and only that case among the torso victims, they were described as "slips" (or strips) of flesh, and they were only two in number, as opposed to three in the Chapman and Kelly murders. Furthermore, the flaps/pieces cut from Kelly's abdomen were huge, and significantly more extensive than either Chapman or Jackson.

So "flaps" is not good enough at all. It's far too non-specific a term.

‘Flaps’ is nowhere near good enough Gareth but they’ve become hooks to hang a case on. Can anyone tell us the difference between a ‘flap’ or a ‘strip’ or a ‘slip?’ Can anyone say that they know what a ‘flap’ looks like? Or does the criteria for a ‘flap’ change in terms of size? Say 3 inches long is a ‘flap’ but over 3 inches is a ‘strip.’ It appears to mean a piece of loose flesh, still attached to the body, caused by a weapon of some kind.

Far too vague to make such a fuss about in my opinion. It smacks of desperation.

[Abby Normal]

"Flaps" is not a technical term, and is about as specific - and useful - as "pieces". With respect to the Jackson torso, and only that case among the torso victims, they were described as "slips" (or strips) of flesh, and they were only two in number, as opposed to three in the Chapman and Kelly murders. Furthermore, the flaps/pieces cut from Kelly's abdomen were huge, and significantly more extensive than either Chapman or Jackson.

So "flaps" is not good enough at all. It's far too non-specific a term.

hi Sam
maybe not for you-but good enough for me and others too.

speaking of jackson. I would think the first most reasonable way her killer would have approached removing the baby would be to just cut around the bump in a large circle-yet we have flaps yet again.

and Ill say it again because I know how much you love the word---FLAPS! ; )

[Sam Flynn]

'Much' is a subjective term, Sam. The murders DID overlap. People can read what they like into that, but it remains a fact.

What about all the other murders that took place all over London from the start to the end of the torso series? We can say that there was an overlap, but we can also say, quite legitimately and objectively, that it wasn't MUCH of an overlap.

[Harry D]

I don't want to diminish any facts, only to emphasise that we need to be very specific if we are to draw any inference from the data. Simply observing that ONE torso was deposited in Pinchin Street whilst the majority were dumped on the other side of London doesn't constitute much of a geographical overlap. Likewise the occurrence of a "spike" of open-air evisceration murders in the middle of a long-running series of quite different murders isn't much of a temporal overlap either.

If my opinion is firm in respect of the non-connectedness of the murders, it's because I objectively look at the specifics and avoid over-generalisation.

'Much' is a subjective term, Sam. The murders DID overlap. People can read what they like into that, but it remains a fact.

[Sam Flynn]

Who's talking about the pattern of the crimes? I simply made a factual statement that the two series of murders overlapped in time and place. Does that mean they were carried out by the same hand? Not at all, but it is a startling coincidence. It seems you wish to diminish the fact because you are of the firm opinion that these murders were not connected. That's not objective, my friend.

I don't want to diminish any facts, only to emphasise that we need to be very specific if we are to draw any inference from the data. Simply observing that ONE torso was deposited in Pinchin Street whilst the majority were dumped on the other side of London doesn't constitute much of a geographical overlap. Likewise the occurrence of a "spike" of open-air evisceration murders in the middle of a long-running series of quite different murders isn't much of a temporal overlap either.

If my opinion is firm in respect of the non-connectedness of the murders, it's because I objectively look at the specifics and avoid over-generalisation.

[Sam Flynn]

Flaps is good enough for me.

"Flaps" is not a technical term, and is about as specific - and useful - as "pieces". With respect to the Jackson torso, and only that case among the torso victims, they were described as "slips" (or strips) of flesh, and they were only two in number, as opposed to three in the Chapman and Kelly murders. Furthermore, the flaps/pieces cut from Kelly's abdomen were huge, and significantly more extensive than either Chapman or Jackson.

So "flaps" is not good enough at all. It's far too non-specific a term.

[Abby Normal]

Not just like Chapman and Kelly. The number and nature of those infernal "flaps" were different in each case.

Flaps is good enough for me. Anyone can drill down enough on any detail untill they find a difference.

[Harry D]

I made an objective and demonstrably factual statement about the pattern of the crimes. A one-off torso in Pinchin Street does not conform to the pattern of the torso murders, the vast majority of which took place well outside the East End, so it isn't MUCH of an overlap, is it?

Who's talking about the pattern of the crimes? I simply made a factual statement that the two series of murders overlapped in time and place. Does that mean they were carried out by the same hand? Not at all, but it is a startling coincidence. It seems you wish to diminish the fact because you are of the firm opinion that these murders were not connected. That's not objective, my friend.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Maybe he did, I don't know, maybe some ripper victims were killed indoors and brought outside or maybe the some of the more ideal conditions provided by Kelly's living situation weren't available in other victims? "Planned" for his victim having a room? Do you mean aware of the fact the victim had a room before the murder?

That’s what I mean. If you suggest, correct me if I’m wrong, that part of the ripper’s plan was that his victim (Kelly) had her own room which would have afforded him the privacy that he wouldn’t have had if he’d killed her in the streets like the other victims, then either he would have known that beforehand so I’d ask how. Or, it was just good fortune, in which case it wasn’t a plan but just someone take advantage of a fortuitous circumstance. Another question would be, if Kelly hadn’t have had a room would the ripper have decided not to kill her. Maybe it could be said that after The Double Event he wanted to reduce his risk of being caught? But I’d suggest that he might have struggled to find prostitutes with their own rooms?

[Sam Flynn]

Ah, see now you're not being objective, Sam.

I made an objective and demonstrably factual statement about the pattern of the crimes. A one-off torso in Pinchin Street does not conform to the pattern of the torso murders, the vast majority of which took place well outside the East End, so it isn't MUCH of an overlap, is it?

[Sam Flynn]

When you have a series of murders around the embankment and another series of murders in the East End and both series involve post-mortem operations on the reproductive organs it is significant when a torso from the embankment series shows up in Whitechapel.

We don't know that the Pinchin Street torso was part of the "Embankment Series", and the removal of reproductive organs was an exception in the torso cases. We cannot therefore state that both series "involved" the removal of reproductive organs. What we CAN say is that not one of the canonical Ripper murders "involved" the removal of limbs, and not one of them happened outside a small area centred around Spitalfields.