Ripper Victim?

[Shelley]

No, it's not.

The extract you've quoted is an ironclad, 100% irrefutable fact.



That isn't true at all. With the exception of the Lake Berryesa murders, the Zodiac conformed to a relatively rigid and consistent MO of shooting people in cars. You can't claim that the ripper was "very consistent" in his methods unless you've picked which victims you want to be his from the outset, but that's a regrettably circular argument. Obviously, if he was responsible for other murders besdies the three you think he killed, he would be less consistent and more in allignment with the vast majority of other serial killers who aren't acutely fine-tuned and robotic in everything they do.

Best regards,


Ben

Ben,
If you are going to use the Zodiac killer as a change in MO please specify frame times, all those victims actually attributed to him and not of any boasts, also any others of the same category and how common is it?
This sounds like a real dab hand of a guy.
Criminology for the foremost must take into account the common sorts before we look at the rarer types that could even be put down as an anomally.

And by anomally, i mean really rare that it virtually stands on it's own given 1 or at a push 2 more of the same kind out of thousands.

[Shelley]

I'd have to agree with Dan here.

In contrast to many other serials, stabbing to slashing is no great leap at at all. Often the earliest murder will bear little to no similarity to later crimes. It will consitute the exploratory phase, wherein the killer discovers his preferences and then hones them as he progresses. Tabram would fit the fill very fell in this respect. She probably was mutilated after death, and one account referred to throat wounds. Unfortunately, it would be circular reasoning for us to decide which how consistent the ripper was based on the victims we've already included or excluded.

All the best,
Ben

ben,
Which are you actually talking about? Slashing to gashing is no great leap!
It is a great leap if you have gashed someone wide open in order to extract organs, remember to get to the organs is quite an operational cut and deeper than a slash in terms of killers motives.
personally i think it likely that Tabram was killed by a soldier.

[Shelley]

That's what occurred to me. From Nicholls on, we've got a serial killer who could only be described as 'polished'. And I think it's unlikely that he came into being fully-grown like that. Looking at the murders that took place previous to Nicholls, Tabram does appear to me to be the best candidate for a first 'disorganized' impulsive kill. After that he refines his technique for a better result--for him! I understand the point about the thousands of women like Tabram around, but there were thousands of women who were not like Tabram around. In fact, if we accept Kelly as a victim--which I may or may not but the majority does--then I think we have to look at Tabram as a victim. They are two sides of the same coin. Tabram fits all parameters except direct cause of death, weapon and wound-pattern. Kelly fits direct cause of death, weapon and wound pattern but not physical type, age, location. I know many will argue that the obvious pattern of weapon etc link Kelly far more to the killings than Tabram's appearance and social situation. However Tabram comes at the start of the spree, when one might expect some anomalies in an sk who is just getting going. Kelly comes at the end.

I wouldn't bet my house that Tabram is a Ripper victim. But I am coming closer and closer to believing that she was.

Chava,
Spree killings is different from serial killings in the form of time frame and numbered killed.

[Shelley]

While we certainly don't know for a fact that she was a Ripper victim, her attack was extremely similar in time and date, location, and also the overall aims of the killer. Dr. Robert Keppel explicitly includes her in the list of Ripper victims by analysis of the killer's signature, and despite the popular misconception that profilers endorsed the Macnaghten Five as the only victims they explicitly said that there very likely were other victims too. If there were other victims -- and serial killers rarely start out with a fully developed attack strategy -- then Tabram is probably the most logical one to add first out of all the possibilities.

People who demand that the exact same methods be used each time for it to be a match would, if they used that same tortured logic on other serial killer cases, end up declaring that all sorts of known victims of captured killers obviously could not have been by the same person despite an overwhelming amount of DNA evidence, fiber evidence and confessions to the contrary.

Dan,
They don't usually test things out on people first, they may use a corpse or an animal or a piece of butchers meat, especially if they do not intend getting caught.

[Shelley]

Hi Glenn,
Tonque in cheek reply.
If the Thirty nine theory has any credence whatsoever then Tabram has to be the start of the series.
If not it would destroy Joe's famous interpretation of the pillars and the 40 strokes less one inflicted on Christ, also would mess my dates connection to the number 39, also the two letters refering to number 39 sent to the police , also the cuttings that a alleged relative of J Barnett showed author Paul Harrison which included the press accounts of the Tabram Murder.
Tabram has to be the novice 'Jack' in action. Does it not Glenn?
Regards Richard.

Richard,
So where the 39 number theory on Chapman, or Eddowes or even Stride for that matter? Numbers and letters are not the main categories in MO. As for Religion and especially the christ is usually involves the psychopathic personality and organised killings, due to detail in using numbers and coded letters.

[c.d.]

The only problem is that in the heat of the moment it would have been so damn easy to lose count and end up with 38 or 40.

c.d.

[Shelley]

Dan,



Interesting comment that. I believed that also yet during the research for our current project, Jake pointed out that he found it hard to find stranger throat cut attacks for the period. It would seem that stabbing was more common.

Its something that is being looked into.

Monty

Well said Monty,
Stabbing was more common, but extreme throat-cuts a bit rarer, especially when it's extreme to almost take the head off!

[Glenn Lauritz Andersson]

The only problem is that in the heat of the moment it would have been so damn easy to lose count and end up with 38 or 40.

c.d.

I am with c.d, and Shelley on that one.

As for the 39 theory, I refuse to even comment on such a far-out idea.
Richards knows what I think - that is why he wrote 'tongue-in-cheek'.

All the best

[Jon Guy]

Chapman had been dead quite a while before she was found, if the killer wanted to take the head then he would have, also as i have stated earlier that this would be a totally different mindset, so are you suggesting that this is an organised killing and possibly psychopathic? I have never heard of such a way as regarding a psychopath, to me this seems a cross of pattern, as far as i know they don't cross that much. Psychopaths are more humane as one forensic psychologist put it, they usually turn a hand at killing when they feel thier power is threatened. Power being threatened by a prostitute? Sorry i don't buy it.

Chapman had been dead for about half an hour, and whilst she was been attacked it had just turned light, and a neighbour was up and about in the next yard, yet he still tried to decapitate her. He failed as it is difficult to do this with a long thin bladed knife. The facts must be spot on if they are to be applied in profiling.

[Shelley]

Chapman had been dead for about half an hour, and whilst she was been attacked it had just turned light, and a neighbour was up and about in the next yard, yet he still tried to decapitate her. He failed as it is difficult to do this with a long thin bladed knife. The facts must be spot on if they are to be applied in profiling.

Jon,
It is most unusual for a serial killer to decapitate and want to take a head, when he is after taking an organ, his relationship was with an organ not a head.
Psychopaths are not serial killers, they are more humane in thier outook in killing, serial killers kill more people than a psychopath will....Unless you are really at the top and genocide is on the books ( but even then a ruling psychopath has others do it for him!). A different mind set is at work with a psychopath in comparision to a serial killer. It's almost like telling a neurologist, well you know i can cross my toes whilst i'm balancing books on my head and jumping up and down, the books are completely still and i am crossing my toes all the while. The brain works differently in psychopaths here! He still tried to decapitate her head and found it difficult to do with a long thin bladed knife....this doesn't add up Jon....As her head was almost hanging off, he got through the most difficult bit with a long thin bladed knife..The spine cord! you know verterbrae ' Bone ' not just left with a bit of sinew and flesh with skin!

[Haskins]

I think there is a good chance Martha Tabram was a JtR victim.

She checks a lot of boxes. The right period. The right time of day. The right type of victim. The right geographical area.

The objection lies in MO of course. But while it was different it wasn't different enough to disqualify Tabram with any great certainty. She was the victim of a frenzied attack by someone with a sharp object. And serial killers do change their MO.

So I think that she probably was a victim of JtR, but I can fully understand why many don't think so.

[Glenn Lauritz Andersson]

She don't tick any of the boxes as far as the Ripper is concerned.
Nor were the Ripper victims subjected to a "frenzied" attack in the way Tabram was.

Again - we are not talking about 'change of MO' here, but two killers with very different needs and personalites.

Let's also remember that prostitutes - now and then - always have been vulnerable victims and are daily subjected to many dangerous situations and abnormal characters. And there were thousands of them in East End crammed in a small area.
We also must consider the possibility that the Ripper crimes may have been triggered off by the news of the Emma Smnith and Tabram murders and that these finally made the Ripper turn his fantasies into action with Nichols.

I am prepared to be open-minded about Frances Coles, Stride, McKenzie and even Kelly (although I personally hesitate to include any of them). But I will NEVER accept Tabram as a Ripper victim.

All the best

[Haskins]

If she'd been poisoned at a royal banquet in Mayfair in 1910, then I might agree Glenn, but as things stand I still thinks she checks a lot of the boxes.

[Glenn Lauritz Andersson]

Sorry, Haskins.
No throat cut, no attempt to open up the body by post mortem mutilation and a frenzied multiple stab wound attack where the murder itself seems to have been the intention (compared to the Ripper's methodical method and focus on post mortem activites rather than the actual killing).

Doesn't tick any boxes for me.

All the best

[Haskins]

Yes I do agree that the MO was not identical, although for me this doesn't disqualify JtR.