Ripper Victim?

[Chava]

I'm taking a long look at her. For the longest time I thought she was unlikely to have been a Ripper victim but now I'm changing my mind. And if she's the first, she tells us the most. She fits the pattern for age, occupation, socio-economic group, description, location of body. Wound pattern and weapon not so much. But if this was his first, and she fought back, he might have sat down and tried to come up with a better way of subduing his victims before setting about them...

[steje73]

I've always leaned towards her not being a ripper victim in the past, but now I'm going the other way too. More likely than Stride for me.

[Glenn Lauritz Andersson]

Tabram was most likely not a Ripper victim. Her throat wasn't cut, there were no post mortem mutilation and the crime scene shows a different type of attack.
To find correlations between her and the alleged Ripper victims regarding age group, social standard and occupation is inevitable since those traits could fit thousands of women in the area. It would actually be quite hard to come across any street woman who didn't fit those criterias so that is a useless parameter.

All the best

[Dan Norder]

While we certainly don't know for a fact that she was a Ripper victim, her attack was extremely similar in time and date, location, and also the overall aims of the killer. Dr. Robert Keppel explicitly includes her in the list of Ripper victims by analysis of the killer's signature, and despite the popular misconception that profilers endorsed the Macnaghten Five as the only victims they explicitly said that there very likely were other victims too. If there were other victims -- and serial killers rarely start out with a fully developed attack strategy -- then Tabram is probably the most logical one to add first out of all the possibilities.

People who demand that the exact same methods be used each time for it to be a match would, if they used that same tortured logic on other serial killer cases, end up declaring that all sorts of known victims of captured killers obviously could not have been by the same person despite an overwhelming amount of DNA evidence, fiber evidence and confessions to the contrary.

[sdreid]

Hi all,

I don't think Tabram was a Ripper victim but that possibility certainly can't be eliminated. We don't know exactly how JtR might have started out.

The major reasons I would say that she was not are the throat not being slashed, the main Ripper signature, and the fact that the genital area did not appear to be the principal target of the attack. I would expect at least one if not both.

Perhaps we have a different killer here for Tabram and Millwood.

[mariag]

I think she's more likely thatn not.

Assuming she was, what does a comparison of Tabram with Nichols tell us?

[Glenn Lauritz Andersson]

If we compare Tabram with Nichols, it is difficult to reach any other conclusion than that they fell victim to different killers.

The Ripper - whose main characteristics actually appears quite consistent with a deep throat cut and post mortem mutilation in at least three but possibly five victims (if you include Stride's not so deep throat cut) - cut Nichols throat and cut her up so that the intestines were protruding just three weeks after Tabram, who was purely subject to multiple stabbing and had no throat cut. Nor did Tabram's killer seem to have any intent or an urgent need to dissect the body or mutilate it after death. It appears to have been a murder purely for the killing itself, since it contains no signs saying otherwise.
The aims of Tabram's killer seems NOT to similar at all with the person who killed Nichols. In fact, it couldn't be any less similar. Although we can't know with 100% certainty what the aims of Jack the Ripper were, there can be little doubt that the postmortem mutilations were the whole point with the murders, simply because he took great risks - in a high risk environment and a with a tight time scedule - by remaining on the crime scenes in order to perform these operations, which were totally unnecessary for the actual killing.
Tabram appears to have been killed by multiple stabbing, and usually multiple stabbing indicates frenzy and uncontrolled rage, not methodical mutilation.

Furthermore, based on the evidence delivered by PC Barrett, and the fact that Tabram and Pearly Poll appears to have been serving soldiers the same night, there can be little doubt that Tabram was killed by a soldier client and not necessarily by a serial killer.

All the best

[Ben]

I'd have to agree with Dan here.

In contrast to many other serials, stabbing to slashing is no great leap at at all. Often the earliest murder will bear little to no similarity to later crimes. It will consitute the exploratory phase, wherein the killer discovers his preferences and then hones them as he progresses. Tabram would fit the fill very fell in this respect. She probably was mutilated after death, and one account referred to throat wounds. Unfortunately, it would be circular reasoning for us to decide which how consistent the ripper was based on the victims we've already included or excluded.

All the best,
Ben

[paul emmett]

I'd have to agree with Dan here.

In contrast to many other serials, stabbing to slashing is no great leap at at all.

I too feel that Tabram was a Ripper victim, and while I do agree with Ben here, I think it's important to note both that Tabram had one cut that was more a rip than a stab, and that at least two of the other victims were stabbed--Eddowes on the left groin if I recall.

[Chava]

I'd have to agree with Dan here.

In contrast to many other serials, stabbing to slashing is no great leap at at all. Often the earliest murder will bear little to no similarity to later crimes. It will consitute the exploratory phase, wherein the killer discovers his preferences and then hones them as he progresses. Tabram would fit the fill very fell in this respect. She probably was mutilated after death, and one account referred to throat wounds. Unfortunately, it would be circular reasoning for us to decide which how consistent the ripper was based on the victims we've already included or excluded.

All the best,
Ben

That's what occurred to me. From Nicholls on, we've got a serial killer who could only be described as 'polished'. And I think it's unlikely that he came into being fully-grown like that. Looking at the murders that took place previous to Nicholls, Tabram does appear to me to be the best candidate for a first 'disorganized' impulsive kill. After that he refines his technique for a better result--for him! I understand the point about the thousands of women like Tabram around, but there were thousands of women who were not like Tabram around. In fact, if we accept Kelly as a victim--which I may or may not but the majority does--then I think we have to look at Tabram as a victim. They are two sides of the same coin. Tabram fits all parameters except direct cause of death, weapon and wound-pattern. Kelly fits direct cause of death, weapon and wound pattern but not physical type, age, location. I know many will argue that the obvious pattern of weapon etc link Kelly far more to the killings than Tabram's appearance and social situation. However Tabram comes at the start of the spree, when one might expect some anomalies in an sk who is just getting going. Kelly comes at the end.

I wouldn't bet my house that Tabram is a Ripper victim. But I am coming closer and closer to believing that she was.

[Glenn Lauritz Andersson]

If Diemschutz ran over a woman with his horse and cart and her abdomin was slit open, he would probably be considered a likely candidate for the Ripper as well, since everything appears to be explainable with 'changing MO' and 'refining techniques'.

No doubt, it is an unfortunate misconception to automatically assume that serial killers necessarily MUST have had a trial period (like it should be an established fact) before 'finding his method'. Many serial killers do develop and change, but there are of course also examples of the opposite. Several killers have stuck to their methods from the first murder onwards and where a clear pattern is easily recognized. Dennis Nielsen, Fred and Rosemary West and John Reginald Christie springs to mind. So that talk about people don't starting to commit serial murder with a 'full-blown' technique is misleading to say the least.

It is also misleading to compare Tabram's multiple stabs with 'post-mortem mutilations' since the latter indicates a deliberate intent to mutilate the body after death.
No doubt some wounds on Tabram would have been made after the ones who killed her (and that is of course logical when you stab someone 39 times), but as in most cases of multiple stabbing the stabs are a part of the act that is intended to KILL the victim and nothing else - they can't be categorized as post-mortem signature. Besides that there seems to have been no need for the killer of Tabram to do anything with the body after death.

Under no circumstances can the killer of Tabram and the man who killed Nichols to be considered sharing the same intent, nor the same similar characteristics.

All the best

[Ben]

No doubt, it is an unfortunate misconception to automatically assume that serial killers necessarily MUST have had a trial period (like it should be an established fact) before 'finding his method'.

Perhaps not an established fact in all recorded cases, Glenn, but for the overwhelming majority there is usually an exploratory period that culminates in a more polshed technique with later murders. There's no reason to assume that JTR belongs in the small minority of serial who embark upon a killing spree with a ready-prepared MO which he carries out to the latter, as would be necessary to accept if Nichols was the first attack and murder, which I very much doubt. In fact, I don't know of any criminalogical expert who has ever gone on record as saying that Nichols was the first ever attack.

There is nothing that remotely militates against the possibility that Tabram's killer wanted to repeatedly puncture a corpse after death. In fact, a reasonable case can be advanced that he did precisely that. I'm not sure we can argue that the "differences" between Nichols and Tabram were greater than those between Christie's victims. Christie apparently used various methods of asphixiation and strangulation, and various implenemts to boot.

Best regards,
Ben

[Dan Norder]

If we compare Tabram with Nichols, it is difficult to reach any other conclusion than that they fell victim to different killers.

Only if you are completely unfamiliar with basically any other serial killer case in existence.

[Dan Norder]

I suppose I should clarify to fend off any potential counter arguments before they are made... being aware of other serial killer cases doesn't mean that you believe that Tabram had to have been a victim of the same killer, but it certainly completely trashes the idea that it's "difficult" to reach any conclusion other than that it was two different killers. It's not difficult at all, it's easy as pie. And certainly Dr. Keppel, whose background and experience with serial killers certainly trumps Glenn's, didn't find it difficult in the slightest to explain why he thought Tabram and Nichols were killed by the same person. And, hell, if you ignore the throat cut, which is clearly just a means to an end and not the sole reason for the killing, Nichols and Tabram look very, very similar... probably more so than Nichols and Chapman.

[Glenn Lauritz Andersson]

I suppose I should clarify to fend off any potential counter arguments before they are made... being aware of other serial killer cases doesn't mean that you believe that Tabram had to have been a victim of the same killer, but it certainly completely trashes the idea that it's "difficult" to reach any conclusion other than that it was two different killers. It's not difficult at all, it's easy as pie. And certainly Dr. Keppel, whose background and experience with serial killers certainly trumps Glenn's, didn't find it difficult in the slightest to explain why he thought Tabram and Nichols were killed by the same person. And, hell, if you ignore the throat cut, which is clearly just a means to an end and not the sole reason for the killing, Nichols and Tabram look very, very similar... probably more so than Nichols and Chapman.

If you believe that, then you definitely need glasses, because there is no similarity whatsoever between Tabram and Nichols in either the nature of the attacks, the characteristics of the murders or the criminal's intentions. To state that Nichols and Tabram are 'very, very similar' is a 'very, very' strange interpretation - and one I definitely can't for the life of me take seriously, when all that binds those two victims together is their socioclass and that both of them were killed by a knife.
Besides that, there are no similarities whatsoever between the two - one had her throat cut very deep, the abdomin ripped up with the intestines protruding and one (killed only three weeks prior to the other one) was killed by multiple stabbing and had no post mortem signatures and no throat cut. One appears to have been killed in a fenzy for the sake of killing and the other was murdered for the purpose of being deliberately subjected to post mortem mutilation.

As for Dr Keppel, it is interesting how you always voice one particular expert who suits your own arguments and then disregard what others in the same field might say. I think that's what they call being selective.
And of course, even though Dr Keppel definitely is an expert on the subject he is not the only one and no expert's OPINIONS and INTERPRETATIONS should be regarded as law. Because that is what it all is in the end - opinions and interpretations of the facts. Now, do I agree with Dr Keppel's interpretations? Absolutely not - just like I agree or disagree with some experts on other subjects.

As for the throat cut, I would hardly call it just 'means to an end' - the throat cut must undoubtedly be regarded as an important part of the Ripper's trademark since it is much more excessive and of extremely deep nature than what's either common or necessary for the crime and, like the abdominal mutilations, is apparent on all victims from Nichols onwards.

All the best