Ripper Victim?

[Glenn Lauritz Andersson]

Ah, well when you're right your right Glenn...I've learned a lot more in patterns since we last spoke.

Can't honestly say that I recall when that was or what it was about (I haven't been on here for a while), but good post anyway.

All the best

[Ben]

Hi Shelley,

i have never heard of a killer changing his motives along with MO so dramatically soon.

Then I'd suggest you check out the cases of the Zodiac killer and Peter Kurten for two very good examples of serial killers who altered their "MO" to a far more drastic extent than stabbing to stab/slashing, and in a shorter space of time to Tabram-Nichols. Modern experience of serial killers has conclusively put paid to many of the hypotheses for ruling Tabram out, which probably explains why not one expert in the field of criminology has opted to exclude her.

[Shelley]

Hi Shelley

I too, believe that Nichols was a Ripper victim, I just don`t think we can assume that he opened her abdomen to extract organs, as he had enough time if he wished to. There were people about but they were in the next street and they did not go into Bucks Row.

The intestines were protruding when they undressed Nichols at the mortuary, but considering (as Dan Norder pointed out) she had been moved and lifted, and she had been cut open, the intestines would pop out.

But I suppose you have guessed now that I think Tabram was killed by the Ripper !!!!!

No Jon,
I do not think that Tabram comes even close in Mo to that of Nicholls, and certainly not Chapman & Eddowes.......Perhaps you could do with reading what i posted on Martha Tabram ripper victim? Thread.

[Shelley]

Hi Shelley,



Then I'd suggest you check out the cases of the Zodiac killer and Peter Kurten for two very good examples of serial killers who altered their "MO" to a far more drastic extent than stabbing to stab/slashing, and in a shorter space of time to Tabram-Nichols.

Ben,
I am familiar with Peter Kurten, and it's easy to stab and accidently slash for one, but Nicholls it is stated that her abdominal wounds were deep enough to have an attempt at extracting organs from the body, as her intestines were prodruding....Now that's deep! Stabbing and slashing is a different mind set, depending on the severity of slashing and why it was done. Try reading my post about Mo on the Martha Tabram ripper victim? By the way i study criminology, i am a student.
Regards
Shelley

[Glenn Lauritz Andersson]

Hi Shelley,



Then I'd suggest you check out the cases of the Zodiac killer and Peter Kurten for two very good examples of serial killers who altered their "MO" to a far more drastic extent than stabbing to stab/slashing, and in a shorter space of time to Tabram-Nichols.

That is nonsense. Those were serial killers who changed their modus operandi all the time (especially the Zodiac killer). The Ripper, on the other hand, was very consistent in his main features of his modus operandi and signature for at least three murders (maybe more, according to some). It is perfectly clear that the mutilations and deep slashing of the neck meant something to him and was not invented by a whim. I don't find it very likely that these traits would have come up after three weeks after abandoning a totally different concept.
Comparing the Ripper with kilers who repeatedly changed their MO is invalid and not even the same ball park.

All the best

[c.d.]

I bet she was stabbed because she refused to drink the poison. Serial killers come prepared.

c.d.

[Jon Guy]

No Jon,
I do not think that Tabram comes even close in Mo to that of Nicholls, and certainly not Chapman & Eddowes.......Perhaps you could do with reading what i posted on Martha Tabram ripper victim? Thread.

Hi Shelley

I did indeed see you post, hence my response to your points regarding no attempt at removing heads, when he did with Chapman, and that an attempt was made to extract Nichols organs which we don`t know, he had enough time after cutting her open.

Prostitutes suddenly start turning up dead with their skirts raised to their abdomen and stab wounds, in a geographically small area, over a short period
That`s a convincing pattern.

[Ben]

That is nonsense

No, it's not.

The extract you've quoted is an ironclad, 100% irrefutable fact.

Those were serial killers who changed their modus operandi all the time (especially the Zodiac killer).

That isn't true at all. With the exception of the Lake Berryesa murders, the Zodiac conformed to a relatively rigid and consistent MO of shooting people in cars. You can't claim that the ripper was "very consistent" in his methods unless you've picked which victims you want to be his from the outset, but that's a regrettably circular argument. Obviously, if he was responsible for other murders besdies the three you think he killed, he would be less consistent and more in allignment with the vast majority of other serial killers who aren't acutely fine-tuned and robotic in everything they do.

Best regards,
Ben

[Shelley]

Hi Jon,

I would assume that the lack of organ taking in Nichols' case would be a result of inexperience and since it probably was his first attempt. While some people tend to call Tabram his 'practice run', I would rather give that label to Nichols.
Furthermore, we can't be sure of the doctors' ability to estimate time of death so precise. Personally, I have never excluded the possibility that the Ripper actually might have been interrupted in Nichols case by Cross and his collegue (and they certainly couldn't tell that she was dead).

As for Dr Phillips and the separating of the bones, I assume we are here talking about Chapman, right?

And no, Tabram was most certainly not a Ripper victim. As for Dan Norder's conclusions regarding Tabram and Nichols, they are often erronous or far-fetched on most counts.

All the best

Glenn,
You raise good points here, but whether Nicholls was a ' Practice run ' can be up for debate, but i see that the same as myself you could regard the non-extraction of organs from Nicholls could be because the killer was disturbed, either way it is all probable in any case.

[Shelley]

No, it's not.

The extract you've quoted is an ironclad, 100% irrefutable fact.



That isn't true at all. With the exception of the Lake Berryesa murders, the Zodiac conformed to a relatively rigid and consistent MO of shooting people in cars. You can't claim that the ripper was "very consistent" in his methods unless you've picked which victims you want to be his from the outset, but that's a regrettably circular argument. Obviously, if he was responsible for other murders besdies the three you think he killed, he would be less consistent and more in allignment with the vast majority of other serial killers who aren't acutely fine-tuned and robotic in everything they do.

Best regards,
Ben

Ben,
Glenn is quite right in saying that at least three of JTR victims were consistent, that is unrefutable.....So where would you find cut-throat on all three, abdominal gashing as to show and have extracted organs or an attempt as gashs were so deep enough to leave intestines protruding inconsistent?

[Jon Guy]

I would assume that the lack of organ taking in Nichols' case would be a result of inexperience and since it probably was his first attempt. While some people tend to call Tabram his 'practice run', I would rather give that label to Nichols.
Furthermore, we can't be sure of the doctors' ability to estimate time of death so precise. Personally, I have never excluded the possibility that the Ripper actually might have been interrupted in Nichols case by Cross and his collegue (and they certainly couldn't tell that she was dead).

As for Dr Phillips and the separating of the bones, I assume we are here talking about Chapman, right?

And no, Tabram was most certainly not a Ripper victim. As for Dan Norder's conclusions regarding Tabram and Nichols, they are often erronous or far-fetched on most counts.

Hello Glenn

I too see Nichols as at the begining of a learning curve, as was Tabram, but we will have to agree to disagree there.

We can have more faith in a Doctors estimate when we are looking at a short period. The hands and arms were cold when Cross found Nichols, so there is at least five minutes before Cross found her.

The point Dan made was about Nichols intestines protruding was because she had been lifted and moved on a couple of occasions before they were noticed.

[Ben]

Glenn is quite right in saying that at least three of JTR victims were consistent, that is unrefutable.....

Shelley,

Many serial killers have a number of murders to their tally that are more consistent with eachother than some of the others. It doesn't mean they weren't responsible for the others. If you fine-tune a serial killer's MO to too great an extent and only selecting the most consistent ones, you'll end up ruling out murders that were in fact committed by the same individual.

[Shelley]

Hi Shelley

I did indeed see you post, hence my response to your points regarding no attempt at removing heads, when he did with Chapman, and that an attempt was made to extract Nichols organs which we don`t know, he had enough time after cutting her open.

Prostitutes suddenly start turning up dead with their skirts raised to their abdomen and stab wounds, in a geographically small area, over a short period
That`s a convincing pattern.

Chapman had been dead quite a while before she was found, if the killer wanted to take the head then he would have, also as i have stated earlier that this would be a totally different mindset, so are you suggesting that this is an organised killing and possibly psychopathic? I have never heard of such a way as regarding a psychopath, to me this seems a cross of pattern, as far as i know they don't cross that much. Psychopaths are more humane as one forensic psychologist put it, they usually turn a hand at killing when they feel thier power is threatened. Power being threatened by a prostitute? Sorry i don't buy it.

[Shelley]

Shelley,

Many serial killers have a number of murders to their tally that are more consistent with eachother than some of the others. It doesn't mean they weren't responsible for the others. If you fine-tune a serial killer's MO to too great an extent and only selecting the most consistent ones, you'll end up ruling out murders that were in fact committed by the same individual.

Well, let me see...Glenn mentioned consistency with Nicholls, Chapman & Eddowes and the time period of all those tallies at 2 months, so our JTR has also been around town cutting up others with a different MO just to fit in with your theory...maybe we have a spree killer then and not a serial killer to boot. Sorry, i don't buy it.

[Glenn Lauritz Andersson]

You can't claim that the ripper was "very consistent" in his methods unless you've picked which victims you want to be his from the outset, but that's a regrettably circular argument.

Yes, I can.
Based on at least three victims we know that the Ripper's main modus operandi features were throat very deeply cut, abdominal mutilations performed in a jagged manner and a focus on the genital area. In the cases of two of the victims the womb was obviously taken and the intestines were put over their right shoulder. I'd say those are very specific features that the Ripper seem to have been keen to include from a personal psychological point of view even though they certainly weren't necessary for committing the crimes.
Of course there could be more victims but in all of those we see throat cuts as a main factor, We see none of that in Tabram, nor any special focus on any genital area.

It is rubbish to even suggest that this 'craving' would have come up as a brainstorm ("rats, that didn't work, let's try something else") after three weeks.

All the best