Ripper Victim?

[Chava]

Thanks for the info on George Yard! I was pretty sure it wasn't constructed out of an old factory.

As for sleeping on the landings, I seem to remember that someone mentioned that people came in off the street in the Hanbury St houses and slept on first floor landings etc. And for sure those stairs and landings would have been narrow.

Thanks for the date info, Paul. I am becoming more and more convinced this is our first kill. And if she was, what can we learn from her?

[paul emmett]

Hi, Chava. Although I think the dates are interesting, and the Bank Holiday has always been one of the things that made me favor JTR here, I didn't provide the date information. It was Michael.


Another thing I consider with respect to Jack is the rip which Glenn spoke against in his last post. But "my" rip ISN'T the one wound made by a larger weapon. That was in the chest, right? I look at the 3"x1" cut on "the lower portion of the body," as the rip. And, then, I agree with Fisherman, seeing this as the lower abdomen--JTR's "area."

[JSchmidt]

Well, regarding the amount of noise: A struggle could also been interpreted as intercourse and thus ignored. Because the stairs seem to have been used by prostitutes as a place to "do their work" apart from the prying eyes of the public.
What also just occurred to me: Could the initial part of the struggle even been seen by someone and ignored because it looked like ordinary sex between a prostitute and her customer? It wouldn't have been that rare a sight in the East End and I suppose most people wouldn't really look there and notice details.

[Glenn Lauritz Andersson]

Well, regarding the amount of noise: A struggle could also been interpreted as intercourse and thus ignored. Because the stairs seem to have been used by prostitutes as a place to "do their work" apart from the prying eyes of the public.

That is actually a very good point and one I feel to be quite plausible.

All the best

[protohistorian]

Hello all,

On a different vein here...pardon the pun....Ive just posted this thought on another thread that relates to perhaps looking at the pattern, rather than the specific wounds when it comes to Martha inclusion.

All Ripper kills are before the 10th of the month, or at months end, on weekends or days that are attached to Holidays.

Martha is killed Bank Holiday Monday, Aug 7th. Shes the only other potential Ripper kill that actually fits the pattern of dates and days.

Ive stated that I feel comfortable concluding that either 1 or 2 soldiers done 'er in, but I do wonder sometimes.

My best regards all.

Michael, she fits well with wounds if one believes the killer was experimenting with his method after her. Martha is a straight stabbing, theres a fuss, and a susequent change in the killers methodology based on the killers prior experience (with Tabram). A thought anyhow

[Jay Batsford]

Tabram ws almost certainly a victim of JTR! Those that believe that the injuries that she recieved do not relate to later murders because of her not having her throat cut or having been mutilated are falling into the misconception that serial killers start out with there signature way of killing. criminologist have after examining thousands of cases in the last 50 odd years have proven that these type of killers go through a escalation learning curve starting at low key assaults on there chosen victims to finally graduating to full blown killer! When this stage of there development has been reached they then start feeling comfortable with acting out the twisted fantasies that first motivated them to attack there victims they understand how best to subdue there victim where it is best to find them.In the lead up to the Whitechapel murders there would have been numerous opportunities for JTR to hone his skills find what it truly was that drove him and what satisfied his own depraved fantasies he assaulted woman at the start maybe even raped a few found that this didn't do anything for him! he may have not have even intended to kill at first but his rage might have got out of hand once and he may have gone to far or one of his victims fought back and he killed her and he liked the feeling so he decided to murder his next victim so he went out and stabbed them multiple times in his rage but this was risky they made noise which may have lead to him getting caught so he had to find a way to subdue his victims so decided that if he cut there throat then the chance of them alerting any passer by was reduced to minimum only then after a few kills this way did he decide that it was safe enough to act on his sexual desires in the mutilations that he carried out on the five known victims! So if we apply modern thinking to the case of JTR how many woman fell pray to his rage before his official reign of terror began in the Autumn of 1888?

[Shelley]

Tabram was most likely not a Ripper victim. Her throat wasn't cut, there were no post mortem mutilation and the crime scene shows a different type of attack.
To find correlations between her and the alleged Ripper victims regarding age group, social standard and occupation is inevitable since those traits could fit thousands of women in the area. It would actually be quite hard to come across any street woman who didn't fit those criterias so that is a useless parameter.

All the best

I have to agree with Glenn here, he has made some good points which cannot i feel be argued against. The fact that there was also a 3 week and 1 day period between Martha Tabram death and the Killing of Polly Nicholls, is in suggestion that the killer if he were the same and our JTR changed his motives in killing, i have never heard of a killer changing his motives along with MO so dramatically soon. As with Nicholls, Chapman & Eddowes all were either an attempt at mutitlation or mutilated to extract organs, this is a need to possess such organs and is an MO, to kill in a frenzy because someone is so angry and the motive perhaps money, is an entirely different ' kettle of fish '. Upon reading a bit of Trevor Marriott's book and Trevor believing in his book that Martha Tabram is an earlier ripper victim, then would we be ruling out Nicholls, Chapman & Eddowes as ripper victims?.... Also maybe looking at a torso murder or two?
I think for someone to go from puncturing and stabbing an organ left in the victims body is entirely different than extracting an organ not punctured by a weapon from another body, the individual mind at work here has a different relationship to his victim and her organs.

[Glenn Lauritz Andersson]

I absolutely agree with you, Shelley! All good points about motives and MO.
(And I am not saying that just because you happen to agree with me.)

All the best

[Shelley]

Tabram ws almost certainly a victim of JTR! Those that believe that the injuries that she recieved do not relate to later murders because of her not having her throat cut or having been mutilated are falling into the misconception that serial killers start out with there signature way of killing. criminologist have after examining thousands of cases in the last 50 odd years have proven that these type of killers go through a escalation learning curve starting at low key assaults on there chosen victims to finally graduating to full blown killer! When this stage of there development has been reached they then start feeling comfortable with acting out the twisted fantasies that first motivated them to attack there victims they understand how best to subdue there victim where it is best to find them.In the lead up to the Whitechapel murders there would have been numerous opportunities for JTR to hone his skills find what it truly was that drove him and what satisfied his own depraved fantasies he assaulted woman at the start maybe even raped a few found that this didn't do anything for him! he may have not have even intended to kill at first but his rage might have got out of hand once and he may have gone to far or one of his victims fought back and he killed her and he liked the feeling so he decided to murder his next victim so he went out and stabbed them multiple times in his rage but this was risky they made noise which may have lead to him getting caught so he had to find a way to subdue his victims so decided that if he cut there throat then the chance of them alerting any passer by was reduced to minimum only then after a few kills this way did he decide that it was safe enough to act on his sexual desires in the mutilations that he carried out on the five known victims! So if we apply modern thinking to the case of JTR how many woman fell pray to his rage before his official reign of terror began in the Autumn of 1888?

Jay,
As with all MO there has to be at least a pattern of 2 to fit from one victim to another, depending on circumstances. Throat-cutting can be one of the MO, extraction of organs from a victim is another, not merely a frenzy, but with a pattern of 2 this is flimsy, so a good estimation is 3 or more to a pattern in MO. The greatest weight in MO is an attempt to extract or extraction taken place rather than just butchery. As for the working of the mind of the killer it points to whether he had a need to extract such organs, in the case of Nicholls ( an attempt to extract) Chapman ( organs extracted) Eddowes ( organs extracted), it must make sense that who ever killed Martha Tabram in a frenzy, puncturing her organs but leaving them in the body is a different mind to that of one who just cuts the throat to render victim dead for the purpose of extracting said organs. Tabram had a different killer to that of at least Chapman & Eddowes. Even with killers that extract organs inside the body thier mindset can mainly be different, even from those who take away arms, legs or heads and other body parts separate from the organs contained inside. With Psychopathic killers ' Heads ' are a favourite. However, Chapman & Eddowes comes under the category ' Disorganised ' Not one single head was taken from either victim of Nicholls, Chapman & Eddowes even though reports on one or more of these victims reported that ' The head was almost completely severed from the body ' leaving us to believe that one or more of these victims heads was hanging on by just a thread.
JTR was not a psychopathic killer i'll wager!

[Glenn Lauritz Andersson]

Tabram ws almost certainly a victim of JTR! Those that believe that the injuries that she recieved do not relate to later murders because of her not having her throat cut or having been mutilated are falling into the misconception that serial killers start out with there signature way of killing.

We are talkinng about three weeks here. Jay. Not a development period of months or years.
There is absolutely nothing in Tabram's murder that even points at it being perpetrated by someone with the same driving forces as the Ripper. You would at least expect some corresponding attributes. It was a prostitute murder, nothing else. Multiple stabbing is actually not the most uncommon type of murder in such an environment.

All the best

[Shelley]

I absolutely agree with you, Shelley! All good points about motives and MO.
(And I am not saying that just because you happen to agree with me.)

All the best

Ah, well when you're right your right Glenn...I've learned a lot more in patterns since we last spoke.

[Jon Guy]

As for the working of the mind of the killer it points to whether he had a need to extract such organs, in the case of Nicholls ( an attempt to extract) , it must make sense that who ever killed Martha Tabram in a frenzy, puncturing her organs but leaving them in the body is a different mind to that of one who just cuts the throat to render victim dead for the purpose of extracting said organs. Tabram had a different killer to that of at least Chapman & Eddowes.Not one single head was taken from either victim of Nicholls, Chapman & Eddowes even though reports on one or more of these victims reported that ' The head was almost completely severed from the body ' leaving us to believe that one or more of these victims heads was hanging on by just a thread.

Hi Shelley

Couple of points, if I may, regarding Nichols, we don`t know whether an attempt was made to extract her organs from the abdominal wounds. She died about ten minutes before she was found, Dr Llewelyn said that when he checked at 04.00 am she had been dead for no more than half an hour, and she was going cold when Cross came across her, so her killer had the time to extract if he wanted.

Dr Phillips noted that an attempt had been made to seperate the bones in her neck. The press exagerated this , but there does seem to be an attempt to remove the head.

[Shelley]

Hi Shelley

Couple of points, if I may, regarding Nichols, we don`t know whether an attempt was made to extract her organs from the abdominal wounds. She died about ten minutes before she was found, Dr Llewelyn said that when he checked at 04.00 am she had been dead for no more than half an hour, and she was going cold when Cross came across her, so her killer had the time to extract if he wanted.

Dr Phillips noted that an attempt had been made to seperate the bones in her neck. The press exagerated this , but there does seem to be an attempt to remove the head.

Jon,
It has been mentioned in a post about Nicholls that her throat was not as almost severed as that of Chapman's, also abdominal wounds indicted that there was an attempt to possibly extract organs, as some of the intestines were left prodruding on Nicholls, so this is why i and others draw the conclusion that Nicholls was a ripper victim. If the Killer were an organised killer & Psychopathic he would more be likely in taking the head of Chapman, which wouldn't quite fit a consise MO, as organ/s were taken from Chapman. Also i believe that there was a workman or two nearby Nicholls and it could have arisen that the killer was fearful of being caught, so that is why maybe no extraction of an organ was made. Also with Dr Bagster Phillips some are inclined to believe that he contradicts himself in his statements.

[Jon Guy]

Hi Shelley

I too, believe that Nichols was a Ripper victim, I just don`t think we can assume that he opened her abdomen to extract organs, as he had enough time if he wished to. There were people about but they were in the next street and they did not go into Bucks Row.

The intestines were protruding when they undressed Nichols at the mortuary, but considering (as Dan Norder pointed out) she had been moved and lifted, and she had been cut open, the intestines would pop out.

But I suppose you have guessed now that I think Tabram was killed by the Ripper !!!!!

[Glenn Lauritz Andersson]

Hi Jon,

I would assume that the lack of organ taking in Nichols' case would be a result of inexperience and since it probably was his first attempt. While some people tend to call Tabram his 'practice run', I would rather give that label to Nichols.
Furthermore, we can't be sure of the doctors' ability to estimate time of death so precise. Personally, I have never excluded the possibility that the Ripper actually might have been interrupted in Nichols case by Cross and his collegue (and they certainly couldn't tell that she was dead).

As for Dr Phillips and the separating of the bones, I assume we are here talking about Chapman, right?

And no, Tabram was most certainly not a Ripper victim. As for Dan Norder's conclusions regarding Tabram and Nichols, they are often erronous or far-fetched on most counts.

All the best