Ripper Victim?

[Shelley]

Professional throat cutting and evisceration of Polly,or of any of the other victims,is not in accordance with what some of the medical people stated.As Chava says,it doesn't take long to learn how to make two clean slashes across the throat,and I fail to see any professionalism in the mutulations to the bodies.

Harry,
The last time i took a look at what the Doctor's had to say, all 4 of them said that the Killer had atomnical knowledge, Chava also claims to be a practising Jew....That's odd, much disaproval with Jews that study dead and mutilated bodies, granted that she's not touching them to become unclean, hands on, but they are outacasts especially a women who dare talk with those that have come into contact with dead bodies, even archeologists. Jewish communities disaprove. According to Jewish faith it is only a particular sect of thier priesthood that are allowed to touch a dead body, ok women can help wash down ritually a dead body, but only those with the approval of the appointed priest/rabbi. That's why Jews don't like thier offspring going into the police force, just incase they come into contact with a dead body that needs scraping off a road or pavement!
Oh, and as for Chava's boiled egg bit, my guess is if she does have a boiled egg and sees a spot of blood she throws it away, unlike the separation of uncooked broken eggs which would be acceptable in Kosher.
Also thousands of years ago, they definately did frighten the animal to get the heart pumping!

[Shelley]

Not that I'm going to discount all your years of knowledge and experience, Don. But where did he learn that technique? And why do you think it would take so long for him to learn it? A casual hour or two spent watching a kosher butcher killing an animal would teach him. The technique in question is known as shechita and it's been practiced for a few thousand years. We are under an obligation to cause the animals we eat as little pain as possible. So the butcher cuts the animal's throat with a knife of extreme sharpness that is inspected over and over again to make sure it has no nicks in it or broken edges that might catch and so hurt the animal. The butcher performs thusly:



Does this sound familiar? How many kosher abbatoirs were there in the East End at that time? I'll bet there were quite a few. They probably wouldn't notice if someone was hanging around what with all the other stuff going on. So no SAS crash course necessary...

Chava,
Also the Kosher abbatoir is skilled and has practised this for years, so your version of a couple of hours don't hold water with the JTR killer, also like i said, he also knew how to mutilate with the clothing on, a far cry from a stabbing through clothing, all in a matter of weeks that are less than a month! So from start to finish Chava you haven't said anything that is slightly convincing to my mind, and yes i would be more inclined to listen to Don ( Supe) with all his years of knowledge & experience.

[Chava]

I think I'll move along from our anti-semitic and ill-informed little pal who knows someone who knew a Jew once.

And I will stick my neck out...and say that I've always thought that the Ripper either was a kosher butcher or had seen kosher butchers in action. It really wouldn't have been difficult to find them.

[Glenn Lauritz Andersson]

Indeed, Harry. I was, though, under the impression that Murray was the one pushing Tabram as victim number two, and maybe there never was any overall consensus in the force - just as there is no such thing on these boards...

The best,
Fisherman

It shouldn't come as a surprise that Tabram in many circles was considered victim number 2, since many tabloid papers counted Emma Smith as the first in the series.
Emma Smith is also the victim who starts the police file Whitechapel Murders, but of course that doesn't mean that the police officially on the whole reckoned her as a Ripper victim, nor any of the torso victims, Coles or McKenzie (where opinions differed within the force).

All the best

[Glenn Lauritz Andersson]

And I will stick my neck out...and say that I've always thought that the Ripper either was a kosher butcher or had seen kosher butchers in action. It really wouldn't have been difficult to find them.

I can certainly buy that. I have always found that trail interesting, and considering the vast Jewish population in the area, it's not an unrealistic thought.

All the best

[Glenn Lauritz Andersson]

Okay. Just been catching up on the 'posts'. H'm. Some people need to be less intense.

Nothing has changed my point of view. Killeen. The name but I'll keep quoting it. 2 weapons. Nothing anyone says will change that. There's nowhere else to go to dispute his report. Sorry. But that's a fact.

Jack going from stabbing Tabram to throttle/choke/strangle/ Nicholls, lower to the ground, slash throat away from him, rip the abdomen.
Not the same killer.

Excellently put.
Doesn't have to be more complicated than that.

All the best

[Glenn Lauritz Andersson]

History, experience, and expert insight and background on the topic prevents us from making those sorts of pronouncements, alas. In fact, it tells us that the reverse is much more likely to be true.

Nonsense.

All the best

[Ben]

Nope.

Not nonsense.

True.

Best regards,
Ben

[halomanuk]

Also if this was the Ripper's work then he had possibly been identified from the beginning because of Tabram's colleague,and,as the murders got worse then surely somewhere,somehow it would have been leaked as to who he was or looked like.
There was just too much going on in the Tabram murder compared to the silent,fiendishness of the C5 for Tabram to be another victim...IMO of course.

[Fisherman]

Glenn writes:

"It shouldn't come as a surprise that Tabram in many circles was considered victim number 2, since many tabloid papers counted Emma Smith as the first in the series."

No surprise, Glenn - but the officers involved in Harrys post dated the murder series back two months from Sep 27:th, meaning that they seemingly discarded Smith.

The best,
Fisherman

[robhouse]

Re: the stab wound in the heart, not being the first wound, and the pool of blood, etc.

The building superintendant Mr. Hewitt, who apparently saw the body in situ, claimed there was “blood flowing from a great wound over her heart. There were many other stab wounds of a frightful character on her.” - Morning Advertiser, August 8, 1888

Rob H

[Glenn Lauritz Andersson]

Glenn writes:

"It shouldn't come as a surprise that Tabram in many circles was considered victim number 2, since many tabloid papers counted Emma Smith as the first in the series."

No surprise, Glenn - but the officers involved in Harrys post dated the murder series back two months from Sep 27:th, meaning that they seemingly discarded Smith.

The best,
Fisherman

Yes, because it was mainly the press - not the police - who linked Emma Smith to the murder series. That said, it is possible som occasional officer in the force may have differed on that opinion.

yes, I know, the timing doesn't fit. I have actually no idea which murder that would be. But I suspect the whole thing may be a matter of error and confusion, especially since the statement also cotains other small errors. It is quite possible this officer might have gotten the order of murders and the timing quite mixed up - we've seen many times in official documents that this happened, so I wouldn't make too much out of this story.
In any case, none of it is supported by other surviving documents in the police files.

As far as I am concerned, it may be another red herring (no, don't take out your fishing equipment... )

P.S. Tack för tidningen. Den kom fram.

All the best

[Shelley]

I think I'll move along from our anti-semitic and ill-informed little pal who knows someone who knew a Jew once.

And I will stick my neck out...and say that I've always thought that the Ripper either was a kosher butcher or had seen kosher butchers in action. It really wouldn't have been difficult to find them.

Chava,

You are spitting rubbish out now, in your post with the quotation ' of a Shochet that is highly trained '....You picked a quotation that said these were highly trained, this takes training to become a shochet' so when i said that a couple of hours that you said for someone to pick this up from a shochet is ridiculos, also shochets were trained in thier own communities, a Jewish Community, not a free for all. I am not anti-semitic Chava, i myself was once from a 'form of judaism faith' myself, and amongst Jews stoning still exists, especially in middle-east areas....Some women have been frightened in a jewish community where her husband has put her away in divorce, the fear that they may take her off to be stoned after engaging in sexual union after a divorce, it has only been the local authorities that have put the wind up the jewish community, so they haven't performed some stonings, still the women were reluctant and wanted to move away, just in case. There has been stoning practised and the women have died, i've spoken to missionaries who have still seen some traditions carried on from the Jewish faith to this day, and by the way, they aren't anti-semitic either, infact they are the ones who support judaism and also the ones to claim that they are God's people.
So don't call me ill-informed, anti-semitic and ignorant unless you want to start calling around 20 different missionaries the same...........I know that i am not wrong Chava. Kosher butchers do not learn thier skill in a couple of hours, it at least takes months! Also the Shochet did butchery as a means of religious purposes, intended for the jewish community in Judaism faith, they wouldn't teach just anyone. Oh, and by the way an animals blood is not to be caught in a deep bowl, bath or bucket........It's classed as idol worship! the fact is Chava you don't like being corrected about your post, where you took a quotation of a shochet is highly trained, and my pointing out that you said anyone could pick this up even in a couple of hours, it sounds it has a ring of untruth and also shows that you have personal agenda in a favouritism of Martha being a Ripper victim....I don't have a suspect, i don't have favourites amongst victims of murdered and dead women in the east-end and i am trying to sieve through what is probable, evident & likely.....Not favouritism & an agenda.

[Shelley]

Shelley I've restrained myself for a long time about your posts. But that? Is ignorant repulsive bs. We don't 'frighten animals' we're not allowed to do so. We cut the throat and drain the blood, but the blood drains just fine from the severed arteries of the neck. We are specifically forbidden to cause the animal more pain and fear than necessary. We don't 'break all eggs to look for blood spots', however if we observe a blood spot in an egg we throw it away. As for 'Jews never did eat boiled eggs', on what planet did you grow up on that you learned that? In your honour am eating a boiled egg as I write this. And I am a Jew that observes kashruth.

Chava,
An animal is more acute than a human as regarding slaughter & death, animals would also be naturally frightened too.......If your egg has a blood spot in it Chava you'll have to throw the whole thing away to keep to Judiasm and eating Kosher.

[Brenda]

Two words. Pub Talk.