Mary Jane Kelly found?

[Livia]

I think it was Hannah.




A few children not included in the above family, perhaps they died young.

From the 1891 census:

David L Price 35
Hannah Price 36
Edward S Price 13
David A Price 10
John Weston Price 9
Margaret M D Price 8
Matilda Ann Price 5
Phillip Hart Price 4
Sarah Ann Jones 17
Samuel Davies 17

[Paddy]

Yes I found that one too I am sure you have the right Hannah. The Mary I found was married to John Jones b1833 who married a Mary Davies around 1881. He married quite a few times. They were both born and lived in Talyllyn John was a quarry worker. With genealogy one sees a bigger picture of the family.
I also found (Harry) Henry McBain the man mentioned in the divorce, although his name is transcribed M Bain incorrectly. In 1891 he was in a large lodging house in 47 Campbell road, Upper Holloway. He was born in Edinburgh 1844, single and was a baker.
I think Elizabeth must have either changed her name or disappeared before 1891 as I have tried different names or places too, with no luck at all.

Pat........

[Debra A]

From the article:

"The two sons, Messrs Edward Davies, Aberangell, and John Weston Davies, Gloucester, are staying to mourn after her. The only surviving daughter is the widow of the late Rev Griffith Hughes. She was in the Khassia Hills with her husband for ten years, and came to Rhos to attend to her sister in her last hours."

Thanks very much, Gareth.
This 1908 article is saying then that it is known that all the sisters of Edward Davies and John Weston Davies are now dead? That would include Elizabeth if I'm understanding what it says correctly?

[Debra A]

Yes I found that one too I am sure you have the right Hannah. The Mary I found was married to John Jones b1833 who married a Mary Davies around 1881. He married quite a few times. They were both born and lived in Talyllyn John was a quarry worker. With genealogy one sees a bigger picture of the family.
I also found (Harry) Henry McBain the man mentioned in the divorce, although his name is transcribed M Bain incorrectly. In 1891 he was in a large lodging house in 47 Campbell road, Upper Holloway. He was born in Edinburgh 1844, single and was a baker.
I think Elizabeth must have either changed her name or disappeared before 1891 as I have tried different names or places too, with no luck at all.

Pat........

Excellent work on McBain, Pat! It would be great if you could post those records.

[Debra A]

Thanks very much, Gareth.
This 1908 article is saying then that it is known that all the sisters of Edward Davies and John Weston Davies are now dead? That would include Elizabeth if I'm understanding what it says correctly?

That should say all the daughters of Edward and sisters of John btw.

[packers stem]

I, for one, don't ignore Maxwell and Lewis. I did suggest some time back that their sightings were a reason to query Bond's estimate of the time of death, rather than to question the identity of the victim.

A friend of mine who is a master joiner gave the opinion that the external injuries to MJK could have been caused in seconds with a draw knife. I think it was Bond who (as a doctor) said a minimum of two hours to inflict all the injuries. It would be interesting to have the opinion of a butcher on the same issue. If the answer was, for the sake of argument, '20 minutes' then there is no need to discard Maxwell and Lewis as unreliable or mistaken witness (or to postulate that MJK murdered a doppelganger in order to disappear). She could have left London and, if need be, changed her name. Easily done without the need for a substitute victim.

Hi Bridewell
Well not ignoring maxwell and Lewis is a start anyway...phew
Otherwise what's the point in looking into the case at all, ruling out the best witnesses isn't the way to proceed with anything. Glad we're agreed on that.
As I've mentioned earlier the time of death I believe is well dictated by the contents of the stomach.
I've never known 'fish and potatoes ' as a breakfast meal...far more likely to be an evening meal.I'm sure most would agree on this count.The digestion of fish and potatoes should take somewhere between 1 and 4 hours.... In my view its highly likely the victim had her meal around midnight or so to place the TOD back around the 3 or 4 am again...so now what do we have?
As for identification..
"the poor woman's nose had been cut off and her face gashed and mutilated so that it was quite BEYOND RECOGNITION" were the words of Mccarthy...a man who knew her well being her landlord.Clearly if he had been asked to identify her when the door opened...he could not.
As for toes etc....Oh dear..really.
There are 'super recognisers' we really can't presume that Barnett was one. I could certainly say that I could not recognise anyone by feet or hands unless there were definite identifying marks, like tattoos or a deformity.This includes my long term partners so obviously it depends on the observational qualities of the identifier...

[Sally]

That should say all the daughters of Edward and sisters of John btw.

Perhaps that indicates that the family knew that Elizabeth was dead. Although I suppose it could just as easily have been a natural conclusion if she had been missing for over 20 years.

[Robert]

Well done on McBain, Pat.

Re Hannah, those two 1881 census returns take us on to the next mystery : on the one hand we have Hannah Davies, unmarried, living in London in service to Dalhousie, which Wynne confirmed to me was correct; on the other hand we have Hannah Price, married, living in Wales having already started a family.

[Robert]

It looks like Hannah's husband died 1936 leaving £1700.

[Debra A]

Well done on McBain, Pat.

Re Hannah, those two 1881 census returns take us on to the next mystery : on the one hand we have Hannah Davies, unmarried, living in London in service to Dalhousie, which Wynne confirmed to me was correct; on the other hand we have Hannah Price, married, living in Wales having already started a family.

The Hannah Price in Wales must be the correct one? We have the mention of John Weston Davies living in Gloucester in 1908 in the death article to confirm it is the right Davies family. WWD's father, John Evan Weston Davies was born in Gloucester in 1909.

[Debra A]

Perhaps that indicates that the family knew that Elizabeth was dead. Although I suppose it could just as easily have been a natural conclusion if she had been missing for over 20 years.

Yes, that's true, they may have just assumed or maybe washed their hands of her.

[Robert]

Something's got to give, Debs, so it looks like the Dalhousie one is wrong.

[Robert]

The weird thing is, though, that Wynne doesn't seem to be the tree owner!

[Debra A]

The weird thing is, though, that Wynne doesn't seem to be the tree owner!

If memory serves, I don't think Hannah is mentioned in Wynne's book either, Robert.

[Paddy]

Originally Posted by Sam Flynn
She was Edward Davies' daughter, Debs, and John Weston Davies' sister

Sam, Debra, I think this is refering to Edward (Elizabeths dad) and his brother, also a John Weston Edwards.I believe its their sisters burial.

Pat.......