Mary Jane Kelly found?

[packers stem]

I don't think MJK's fear was anything more than the fear the other women of that neighborhood felt at the time.

I don't think that any of the women were specifically targeted. I believe they were all victims of opportunity. The timing on Catherine Eddowes would have had to be spectacularly perfect for someone to have targeted her ahead of time. The only reason MJK was so thoroughly destroyed is that she was the only one with a private room to take her john to.

Hi Penhalion
Ever wondered why she walked the opposite way to her usual lodging area on being released?
Do you not think that an arranged meeting with someone to be a possibility?
No need for any spectacularly perfect timing at all

[Rosella]

Why couldn't Kate, hoping to avoid a thrashing from John Kelly as she put it, have been making her way to the casual ward at Mile End?

[GUT]

Why couldn't Kate, hoping to avoid a thrashing from John Kelly as she put it, have been making her way to the casual ward at Mile End?

Now you want to use common sense.

[belinda]

Why couldn't Kate, hoping to avoid a thrashing from John Kelly as she put it, have been making her way to the casual ward at Mile End?

Good point. Had I been her I'd have been in no hurry to go home to a beating

[curious4]

Hairstyles

Back to the hair, which is surprisingly untouched above the forehead, I have noticed that many women go back to the hairstyles of their 20s and wear it that way because they know how to manage it and it suits them. Nothing scientific here, just what I've observed. Mary's hairstyle, ringlet-like curls above the forehead appears to have been popular in the 1860s. Most girls put up their hair between the ages of 15 and 17. (The equivilant of boys going into long trousers for those of us who remember short trousers and being perceived as an adult for those who don't).

I have been looking at hairstyles of the 1800s and the only one which matched Mary's was this one from 1867. (Which I don't seem to be able to attach - will have to await help from one of my brood).

Anyway, pressing on, say that Mary was about 15 when she put her hair up, that would make her in her late thirties when she died. Celts often age well, and can look a good deal younger than their age. (Hate to boast here, but I am often taken for quite a bit younger than I am, leading to some embarrassing moments). Even Polly and Liz, although not celts were taken to be much younger than they were. So Mary could be a good deal older than she claimed to be, and looking for her in the records as a 25 year old wouldn't fit.

Best wishes
C4

[belinda]

Back to the hair, which is surprisingly untouched above the forehead, I have noticed that many women go back to the hairstyles of their 20s and wear it that way because they know how to manage it and it suits them. Nothing scientific here, just what I've observed. Mary's hairstyle, ringlet-like curls above the forehead appears to have been popular in the 1860s. Most girls put up their hair between the ages of 15 and 17. (The equivilant of boys going into long trousers for those of us who remember short trousers and being perceived as an adult for those who don't).

I have been looking at hairstyles of the 1800s and the only one which matched Mary's was this one from 1867. (Which I don't seem to be able to attach - will have to await help from one of my brood).

Anyway, pressing on, say that Mary was about 15 when she put her hair up, that would make her in her late thirties when she died. Celts often age well, and can look a good deal younger than their age. (Hate to boast here, but I am often taken for quite a bit younger than I am, leading to some embarrassing moments). Even Polly and Liz, although not celts were taken to be much younger than they were. So Mary could be a good deal older than she claimed to be, and looking for her in the records as a 25 year old wouldn't fit.

Best wishes
C4

Just a point. Mary was known for her long hair which she left loose (as per witness statements) hanging "almost to her waist".
I too have a strong Celtic background and am regularly taken for ten years younger than my actual age. Mary may have been older it's certainly not uncommon for women to obfuscate about their age. I rarely correct people about mine! In 1867 the middle part hair style was still very popular. Think Queen Victoria. I personally can't see curls in that photo.

ETA: Is this the kind of thing you mean?

http://www.hairboutique.com/tips/VictoriaBangs_250.jpg

[Penhalion]

Originally posted by packers stem: Ever wondered why she walked the opposite way to her usual lodging area on being released?
Do you not think that an arranged meeting with someone to be a possibility?
No need for any spectacularly perfect timing at all


Except, she was falling down drunk when she went into the cell, she had no watch, and I suspect there was no clock in her cell. How would she know when to 'sober up' in order to be released in time for the meeting? Even when she was released she was probably still woozy from the drink so I like the idea of her going somewhere to finish sobering up and not going home to at least an argument if not out right violence.

[curious4]

Hello Belinda

She probably plaited it at night, my grandmother had hair she could sit on and always did. The fancy ringlets at the front - which is all we can see - probably took some time to do, so weren't combed out at night.

Best wishes
C4

P.S I will post the picture I have, which is dated, as soon as I can. As regards Queen Vic, she would have been around 40 in the 1860s and still has the hairdo she sported when she married Dear Albert. Our own Gracious Majesty has more or less the same hairstyle she always has, which sort of proves my point.

[belinda]

I have past waist length hair and have had all my adult life. Plaiting was common at night I used to but it is uncomfortable. I know curls take time! I don't have the patience but to me her hair looks straight on top

[curious4]

I have past waist length hair and have had all my adult life. Plaiting was common at night I used to but it is uncomfortable. I know curls take time! I don't have the patience but to me her hair looks straight on top

Hello Belinda

Looks to me like what were called "sausage curls" - at least to me. Used to really envy girls who could achieve these, but we were a large family and my mother never had time. Doubt she could have done it with my hair anyway lol. I believe rags were involved.

Best wishes
C4

PS The picture is clearer in some of the books, if you can avoid looking at the dreadfulness underneath.

[curious4]

https://www.victoriana.com/Victorian-Fashion/victorianhairstyles-1867.html

This should be the one. Second picture down.
The Marguerite.

C4

[Penhalion]

I'm not sure we are seeing a formal hair-style there. She may have had a strong wave in her hair which would show if her hair fell back from her face as she lay on the bed. I am strongly Scottish/Welsh in background and have long, wavy auburn hair. My hair does something very similar to that naturally.

Also, the hairstyles in the illustrations were for very formal, elaborate ball gown ensembles and not something women would wear every day and probably not the style a woman from a poor working class family would wear in any case.

[curious4]

I'm not sure we are seeing a formal hair-style there. She may have had a strong wave in her hair which would show if her hair fell back from her face as she lay on the bed. I am strongly Scottish/Welsh in background and have long, wavy auburn hair. My hair does something very similar to that naturally.

Also, the hairstyles in the illustrations were for very formal, elaborate ball gown ensembles and not something women would wear every day and probably not the style a woman from a poor working class family would wear in any case.

Hello Penhallion

I think an over the top hairstyle is just what a lady of the night would aspire to. She had worked in a West End brothel where she would have been expected to dress up. To me the hair looks dressed, one of the saddest things about the photograph, the carefully styled hair above the dreadful face. Nevertheless it is a matter of opinion.

Best wishes
C4

[Penhalion]

But if she was in a relatively high end brothel, she would have been expected to wear contemporary hair styles not ones that were 15-20 years out of date. The effort and expense to keep up a really elaborate hair style would have been beyond the means of someone living hand to mouth. Judging from the other women in the area, high fashion was not one of the things men trolled the back alleys looking for.

[curious4]

But if she was in a relatively high end brothel, she would have been expected to wear contemporary hair styles not ones that were 15-20 years out of date. The effort and expense to keep up a really elaborate hair style would have been beyond the means of someone living hand to mouth. Judging from the other women in the area, high fashion was not one of the things men trolled the back alleys looking for.

It would fit if she had been in the West End 15 or 20 years earlier. And I think she would have been able to fix her own hair. She was proud of it as her best asset.

Best wishes
C4